Advice please! Erection problems DURING and after cycle

**JHeisman1** · 01-17-2010, 11:49 AM

Started Deca [100mg] and Sustanon [250mg] each week, on June 1 2009. By June 23rd, I could barely get an erection and had no sex drive [while on juice!]. I continued my cycle until August 25 2009. Still no sex drive and erection problems but nice strength gains, max weight was 192.

Then, Sept 1st - Sept 15 took Clomid 100mg every day. At the last day of the cycle, I had my first morning wood [had sex like 3x that day] and felt normal for 2 days. Then, ran out of clomid and returned to impotence.

On, Dec 1st started: HCG [1200 IU] every other day for 16days, re-started clomid 100mg each day for 15 days and Nolvadex 20mg each day for 30days. Right around day 14, everything started working again, morning erections and good sex drive. Then, on day 15 ran out of clomid.
By Dec 18, lost my sex drive but I continued Nolvadex for 2 more weeks, but it didnt help.

Then, Jan 4th got some more clomid [this time I wasnt gonna run out]. Started just Clomid 100mg every day. On Jan 11, I returned to normal again but only for 2 days. Then, went back to erectile dysfunction even though I am continuing the clomid this time [got like a 3 months supply].

I have lost everything, I'm weaker now than before this cycle and my weight was 192 at max, now I'm 171. I've lost about a pound a week for the last few weeks. I used to love sex, had it daily or more with my wife for several years. Now, no sex drive, trouble getting erections, and starting to feel depressed.

I have had 3 normal days in the last 6 months [all 3 times on clomid]. Havent touched juice since August 2009 and I'm going crazy. I called labcorp to see how much it would cost if a doctor ordered these tests: GnRH, LH, FSH, Prolactin, TSH, Free and total testosterone , cost was $679 [i dont have insurance to cover labs]. I dont think I can afford to get evaluated until my new job starts, July 1st [6 months from now]. I'm still taking clomid but its not helping, should I stop it?

I did order HCG 5000iu x5 vials, 30 days worth of quality clomid [blister packs] and 45 days of quality tamoxifen - both orals from Iran Hormone Co. Should I run another PCT cycle? Was thinking, HCG 2500IU every other day, clomid 100mg x30 days, tamoxifen 20mg x45days [protocol I read from an Endocrinologist online]. Any advice, any tips, anything would be appreciated, I dont think I can live like this.

Here are some of the things I've been wondering about...
-Did I de-sensitize my receptors to testosterone [is that possible]?
-Was it bad juice?
-Did my hypothalamus and pituitary shut down [& will they restart]?
-Why did the clomid only reverse it for a day or two?
-Has anyone else had low sex drive and erection problems WHILE ON juice [and after]?

Thank You for reading and posting...
Johnny

***D7M*** · 01-18-2010, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by JHeisman1

Started Deca [100mg] and Sustanon [250mg] each week, on June 1 2009. By June 23rd, I could barely get an erection and had no sex drive [while on juice!]. I continued my cycle until August 25 2009. Still no sex drive and erection problems but nice strength gains, max weight was 192.

Then, Sept 1st - Sept 15 took Clomid 100mg every day. At the last day of the cycle, I had my first morning wood [had sex like 3x that day] and felt normal for 2 days. Then, ran out of clomid and returned to impotence.

On, Dec 1st started: HCG [1200 IU] every other day for 16days, re-started clomid 100mg each day for 15 days and Nolvadex 20mg each day for 30days. Right around day 14, everything started working again, morning erections and good sex drive. Then, on day 15 ran out of clomid.
By Dec 18, lost my sex drive but I continued Nolvadex for 2 more weeks, but it didnt help.

Then, Jan 4th got some more clomid [this time I wasnt gonna run out]. Started just Clomid 100mg every day. On Jan 11, I returned to normal again but only for 2 days. Then, went back to erectile dysfunction even though I am continuing the clomid this time [got like a 3 months supply].

I have lost everything, I'm weaker now than before this cycle and my weight was 192 at max, now I'm 171. I've lost about a pound a week for the last few weeks. I used to love sex, had it daily or more with my wife for several years. Now, no sex drive, trouble getting erections, and starting to feel depressed.

I have had 3 normal days in the last 6 months [all 3 times on clomid]. Havent touched juice since August 2009 and I'm going crazy. I called labcorp to see how much it would cost if a doctor ordered these tests: GnRH, LH, FSH, Prolactin, TSH, Free and total testosterone , cost was $679 [i dont have insurance to cover labs]. I dont think I can afford to get evaluated until my new job starts, July 1st [6 months from now]. I'm still taking clomid but its not helping, should I stop it?

I did order HCG 5000iu x5 vials, 30 days worth of quality clomid [blister packs] and 45 days of quality tamoxifen - both orals from Iran Hormone Co. Should I run another PCT cycle? Was thinking, HCG 2500IU every other day, clomid 100mg x30 days, tamoxifen 20mg x45days [protocol I read from an Endocrinologist online]. Any advice, any tips, anything would be appreciated, I dont think I can live like this.

Here are some of the things I've been wondering about...
-Did I de-sensitize my receptors to testosterone [is that possible]?
-Was it bad juice? I doubt it, if you're shut down
-Did my hypothalamus and pituitary shut down [& will they restart]? Yes, that's what is sounds like
-Why did the clomid only reverse it for a day or two?
-Has anyone else had low sex drive and erection problems WHILE ON juice [and after]? Yes, I have. Both on cycle and off. On cycle for me it was due to estrogen...either being too high or too low. Off cycle, my body seems to stabilize pretty quickly, and I only have a drop in sex drive for the first week or two of pct.

Thank You for reading and posting...
Johnny

Some bolds above.

This is complicated one, so I'll say what I can, and bump it for someone who might be able to help more (Oh Swifto....)

Honestly, your best bet now is to get blood work done and see where you're at, otherwise, everything else you do is just guess work.

Here's a link with some ideas on where to get blookwork done:
Get any lab test now

Also, you might want to make an appointment with an endo. I know insurance is an issue at this point, but once your insurance kicks in, I would do that asap.

Along with the blood work, you can also get some viagra or cialis, this won't help with the sex drive issue, but it should help you maintain an erection until you can figure out what's going on.

**Swifto** · 01-18-2010, 02:28 PM

I'd really like to see bloodwork. Its very important IMHO.

I'd be pretty aggresive and do something like:

HCG wk 1-3 500ius/ED
Aromasin wk 1-4 Aromasin 10mg/ED
wk 1-8 Tamox 20mg/ED
wk 1-8 Clomid 50-100mg/ED OR Tore 60-120mg/ED. (I prefer Toremifene)

You sure your Sust wasnt fake? Or very underdosed?

The protocol you outlined is a good one, but I'd lower the HCG dose to 500-1000ius/ED. You really need BD done, then we can asses whether you have secondary or primary hypogonadism. From what it looks, it may be primary. In that case if HCG doesnt help or solve the problem, get ready for HRT. How old are you?

For BW get: Total T, Free T, DHEA, Pregnenolone, Melatonin, LH, FSH, GnRH, Estrogen and Prolactin.

**tboney** · 01-18-2010, 03:32 PM

I agree. You need BW. I didnt see that you used any AI during cycle..This could all be estrogen related????? With the deca your prlctn/progst could also be out of whack. That starting and stopping of pct compounds can leave your chemistry all f'ed up. I would get evaluated....

**Swifto** · 01-19-2010, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by tboney

I agree. You need BW. I didnt see that you used any AI during cycle..This could all be estrogen related????? With the deca your prlctn/progst could also be out of whack. That starting and stopping of pct compounds can leave your chemistry all f'ed up. I would get evaluated....

If there is no endogenous T, there is very little estrogen. The majority (70%+) comes from aromotase. Estrogen also comes from other sources, such as the testes, skin, brain, adrenal cortex etc...

**tboney** · 01-19-2010, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

If there is no endogenous T, there is very little estrogen. The majority (70%+) comes from aromotase. Estrogen also comes from other sources, such as the testes, skin, brain, adrenal cortex etc...

Right, I understand that. But he has had issues since he started his cycle. His sust use could cause his estro to increase hence the erection problems. Also the hcg use could do the same, no?

**BJJ** · 01-19-2010, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by D7M

Some bolds above.

This is complicated one, so I'll say what I can, and bump it for someone who might be able to help more (Oh Swifto....)

Honestly, your best bet now is to get blood work done and see where you're at, otherwise, everything else you do is just guess work.

Here's a link with some ideas on where to get blookwork done:
Get any lab test now

Also, you might want to make an appointment with an endo. I know insurance is an issue at this point, but once your insurance kicks in, I would do that asap.

Along with the blood work, you can also get some viagra or cialis, this won't help with the sex drive issue, but it should help you maintain an erection until you can figure out what's going on.

Bolds, immediately.
Good Luck and keep us posted

**JHeisman1** · 01-25-2010, 12:20 AM

BTW, someone asked so here goes: I'm 33 yrs old, done 4cycles in past all with great results. This one last summer killed me though. I've been on 500IU hcg every other day for 1 week now and my equipment seems to be responding [not normal but much much better]. So I think my leydig cells must be putting out some testosterone , granted still low though. Dont feel so damn deppressed either, thank goodness cuz that sucked.

Thank you so much for your input. Through these message boards, I found a great referral to buy my own online lab work drawn at labcorp for half the price without going in to the doc! Here is the name in case it could help anyone: privatemdlabs.com

Also, if you search for privatemdlabs coupons, there is a 15% coupon that worked [started with XB]. I'll get the labs done in the next day or two and prolly get results by week's end. I'll post the results for any more feedback.

Thanks again!!!

**JHeisman1** · 01-27-2010, 10:59 AM

Here's my labs results:

Testosterone : 754 [normal is 280-800]
Free Test: 19.6 [normal is 8.7 - 25.1]
Estradiol: 70.4 [norm is 7.6-42.6]
FSH: 2.9 [norm 1.5-12.4]
LH: 3.8 [norm is 1.7- 8.6]
Prolactin: 10.7 [norm is 4.0-15.2]
Progesterone: 0.5 [norm is 0.2-1.4]
TSH: 3.33 [norm is 0.45-4.5]
Free T4: 1.59 [norm is 0.82-1.77]
Comprehensive Met Panel all normal except: AST of 49 [norm is 0-40] and Creatinine of 1.32 [norm is 0.76-1.27]
Complete Blood Count [RBC's, WBC's, plts, all normal, Hemaglobin of 16 [norm 12.5-17]

Symptoms I'm experiencing: no sex drive, difficulty getting erection, no morning wood, etc...
Meds I'm taking: Clomid 50mg in the morning, 50mg at night [100mg total] for 3 days, Nolvadex 20mg daily for 3 days, and HCG [was on 500 IU every other day for 1 week, then increased it to 1000 IU every other day [I'm on day 11].

Plan: Continue meds as above for about 10 more days on HCG, keep clomid for 27 more days, keep Nolva for 42 more days. Possibly add an aromatase inhibitor since it appears to be my estrogen elevation causing my symptoms.

But also my FSH and LH are low normal so my pituitary isnt cranking it out [should've checked my GnRH to see if hypothalamus was cranking out GnRH which should cause Pituitary to secrete FSH/LH unless both are low or pituitary is de-sensitized].

Questions I have:
1. Should I use an Aromatase Inhibitor [which is best] and for how long [what's the best way to take it]?
2. Should I increase the dose of clomid or nolvadex?
3. What duration should I use for these meds [Clomid, Nolva, HCG, +/- Aromatase Inhib]?
4. Any recommendations to secrete more FSH/LH [diet, meds, etc]?
5. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks again everyone, I truly appreciate the advice and insight and I'll keep you posted...

JH

**KAEW44** · 01-27-2010, 12:35 PM

Your blood work isnt that of a man that is "Shut-down" at all, i also doubt that last cycle you did has in it the power to completly irreversibly shut someone down i have seen people do much heavier with no PCT and recover eventually.

The blood work doesnt lie, so the sex-drive issue could be completly unrelated to the cycle or use! I had an extremly low sex drive with no morning wood and all the bells and whistles and after doing so much blood work and paranoid investigating the last viable conclusion was that it was phsycological and it was at a time i was extremly extremly stressed and crappy things happening in my life both physical and phsycological and emotional which probably put me in that place, the thing that helped me was hardcore porn!
I am not kidding man i just watched the super nasty stuff (i recomend Belladonna or anything from Evil Angel video) and make your wife accept to re-inact some of that stuff and you will be good to go, cialis and viagra always work no matter how i am feeling.

Get your wife used to the following abbreviations from the nasty porn world:
ATM
FGF
CP
DA
DD
COF
CIM
DT

I know you love this woman man but trust me this will keep the family strong. The ends justifies the means.

**JHeisman1** · 01-27-2010, 06:42 PM

Thanx KAEW44 for the input. While I do appreciate the Porn (abbreviations and recommendations :-), I think it is too early to call it psychological. Organic causes of Erectile Dysfunction can result from a number of physiologic abnormalities. I think the elevated estrogen is the main culprit in my case. There could also be low GnRH because the FSH/LH is low (very low normal, should be double what it is) which also decreases libido. I have all of these aformentioned abnormalities and any (or all) could be the etiology.

Other evidence of organic ED is typical with no morning erections. Normally, most physiologically normal males will experience about 2-3 erections every time they sleep (each time you go into REM sleep, you become erect). I would agree with you if I was having morning erections yet still didnt want to shag my wife, cuz that would mean everything is functioning normal yet I dont want sex with her. However, that's not the case cuz I have no morning erections and low libido.

I will admit that I am on HCG so that could be why my gonadotropins (FSH/LH) are low and my testosterone and estrogen are high. I just started clomid too (after these lab tests). On these meds, the ED is much better as I can stand up fully on my own (without Viagra/Cialis) but it takes a good bit of handling to get it there which sux and it is very difficult to climax. Before last summer's cycle, we would shag every day (no kidding, every day sometimes 2-3x in a day) and I would rise to the occassion with no stimulation other than the conversation about sex.

-I ordered Arimidex and will prolly get it in about 2 weeks. Any advice on Arimidex?
-Anyone else ever had lab work confirmed elevated estrogen (if so, how high was it? And did u have erectile issues)?
-Anyone know anything about Geneza pharm (GP) as they are so cheap seems to good to be true [anyone know for sure if it is G2G)?

Thanks again...

Respectfully,
JH

**Swifto** · 01-28-2010, 03:42 AM

You need to bring estroge down. Never use HCG without an AI. If your testes are firing it can raise testosterone fairly dramatically.

You no longer need HCG IMHO. Your testes are online and working.

You should be using Clomid and Tamox to get endogenous LH and FSH up asap. If you stay on HCG, add Aromasin 10mg/ED. If you come off of it, use 10mg/EOD with Clomid and Tamox and get BW done 5 weeks after finishing your PCT.

**JHeisman1** · 02-03-2010, 05:58 PM

Awesome, thanks Swifto...I stopped the HCG . Continuing the Clomid for another week and Nolva for 3 more weeks. Once I get the aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex , I will start that as well.

How long do you usually take an aromatase inhibitor?

**JHeisman1** · 06-24-2012, 04:09 PM

Update:

I had a lot of sides on cycle in summer of 2009 and tried various PCT's to return to normal but nothing worked and I was worried might cause other problems. I decided to get off all pharma's since summer 2010, figured I'd wash out. Around a year later [summer of 2011], everything returned to normal with morning wood, libido, etc. but a year seemed like an eternity, but sooo worth it looking back. THAT SUCKED! So anyone with sides i would advice a washout period if too many variables goin on. Maybe i'm wrong but i would avoid 'g--eza' like the plague, that junk is tainted IMHO. Maybe others have different experience than I did [MAYBE just a bad batch/LOT], i'll just put it out there as a warning. Take it for wat its worth but this was a true case report of my experience. Would luv to hear if others had similar experience with that one. I just dont want anyone to have to go through wat i did, trying to help others so if u are considering that brand do yourself a favor and look elsewhere!!!

Thanks to swifto, BJJ, and Tboney for help. U guys rok...

**Noles12** · 06-24-2012, 04:17 PM

Edit out the lab name

**asq** · 06-25-2012, 09:24 AM

Good to hear ur back to normal mate.......im experiencing some problems since i started a cycle which i stopped prematurely after a few shots and have been experiencing some problems similiar to your self been 10 months since last shot now and still not back to normal........your experience has given me hope that everything will be fine eventually. Im due to see an endo in the next few weeks and have told them of the aas use. Im 28, will be going for some more blood test this coming week.

**JHeisman1** · 07-03-2012, 09:59 PM

To NOLES12--edited. To asq--I've read several scientific journals on the subject through pubmed and most people normalize in around 6-9 months but there are multiple people that take a year or just over a year [I did as well]. The few people who seem to NOT normalize are usually pro-body builders that take 3x the doses I was taking for years at a time. The other scenario i've read is using HCG to stimulate leydig cells [as it mimics LH from pituitary gland] as it is possible to permanently desensitize ur leydig cells from working if too high of HCG or too long in duration of use. Basically, PCT is NOT without risk as many may think. After everything I've read, I would be hesitant to use certain PCT protocols with more caution when using HCG [leydig issues] or Clomid [ocular issues] as several of these meds could have permanent sequelae. Good luck and give it a few more months without ANY PCT would be my advice as I restarted my "clock" after my last attempt at PCT so it took a year from any pharmaceutical that I took. If u count all the PCT cycles I tried then it took almost 2 yrs to normalize...

**asq** · 07-04-2012, 07:20 AM

Looking to start a family as soon as possible and the 2nd deca shot made my sperm watery and this hasnt recovered fully as of yet.........Seems like HCG maybe an option to restore this.........

Will be getting my new blood tests next week so will post these in my thread

**JHeisman1** · 07-10-2012, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by asq

Looking to start a family as soon as possible and the 2nd deca shot made my sperm watery and this hasnt recovered fully as of yet.........Seems like HCG maybe an option to restore this.........

Will be getting my new blood tests next week so will post these in my thread

Good luck with starting family bro, ill chek for ur labs...