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  1. #1
    Swollen26 is offline New Member
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    Thumbs up 1st Tren cycle need PCT help

    This is going to be my first cycle involving Tren and I just wanted to get some feedback as far as what my best route for PCT would be.

    Profile
    25 years old
    6ft
    220lbs
    BF% 12
    Training for 7 years took my first cycle roughly 3 years ago
    Very clean diet
    Very prone to gyno

    This is going to be my 5th cycle however like I mentioned before this will be my first involving Tren. Since this is my first involving Tren I am really trying to make sure I have all the necessary gear on hand to cover all the angles. Previously I have taken things like Test E, Sust, Decca, D-bol, Winny and Anavar . My last cycle was Sust/Decca/Winny and that cycle worked fantastic. I hear great things from people who have taken Tren so I think its time to try it for myself.

    This is what my current 12 week cycle is going to look like once im confident I have all the necessary gear on hand:

    Cycle
    Weeks 1-12 Test Prop 100mg EOD
    Weeks 1-10 Tren Ace 100mg EOD
    Weeks 10-12 Winstrol 50mg ED
    Week 1-12 .5mg AI Arimidex EOD

    HCG
    Week 2-6 250iu's HCG EOD
    Week 7 OFF
    Week 8-12 250iu's HCG EOD
    HCG Blast Phase starting the day after last shot of Test
    750iu's HCG ED for 3 days

    SERM Treatment Starting 4 days after last shot of HCG, 7 days after last shot of Test Prop
    4 Weeks Clomid 50mg ED
    6 weeks Nolvadex (20/20/10/10/10/10)
    6 weeks AI Exemestane 25mg ED

    **Is this proposed PCT a good fit for my cycle??
    -I read alot of posts where people say not to use nolvadex during a Tren cycle for various reasons. [I Decided to keep the Nolva]
    -I read alot of posts where people say to use Letro instead of Arimidex with Tren. [I Decided to stick with the Arimidex]
    -I will also have Dostinex on hand but will only use if necessary

    Please any advice from anyone experienced with a similar cycle would be greatly appreciated!
    Last edited by Swollen26; 05-03-2011 at 08:04 AM.

  2. #2
    Swollen26 is offline New Member
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    Any Help Please?

  3. #3
    cappybye is offline New Member
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    10 weeks is a long time to run Tren , but 75 EOD is not much. I would run it 6 weeks at 100 EOD (starting week 2 or 3) for the first time around and see how well you recover. If you make a good recovery in all respects then you can look at longer or heavier cycles in the future. Armidex is strong enough for control on cycle, I would leave the Letro unless you find out need it.

    I would add Exemestane for your PCT - 25/day. I would also drop the Clomid but it won't hurt. I would have the Dostinex on hand just in case but most people never need it.

  4. #4
    Swollen26 is offline New Member
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    ok I was thinking about maybe lowering the length I would be on Tren I will make that adjustment however you think 100mg eod wont be too much?

  5. #5
    cappybye is offline New Member
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    It certainly wasn't for me on my first cycle of Tren last winter. The next one will be 150 EOD.

    Start with 100 and it will sort of act as a frontload, to get blood levels up quicker. If you find after a couple of weeks that you are getting sides you can lower the does to 75. It's an Ace so it will drop relatively quick. With Tren you're likely going to have to put up with some sides to get maximum benefits. Hey I'm no expert, just speaking from my own recent experience, so take that for what it's worth. BTW I also ran 100 EOD of Mast with my Tren which may have helped to control some of the sides, but I doubt it. I ran AR-R Armidex 1 ml E3D while on cycle and it really worked. I dropped it 2 weeks before the end and my libido went through the roof, so I know the stuff was really controlling estrogen while I was on it.

    But you really should limit the Tren to 5-6 weeks until you know how it will affect your body, especially your recovery. A higher dose for a shorter time will be a better test and will be easier to recover from. Some people have a hard time recovering.

  6. #6
    lovbyts's Avatar
    lovbyts is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Ive never heard/read anyone saying 10 -12 weeks is to long for tren as long as you are running test with it and even though it's tren a 5-6 weeks seems short.

    I would go with the AI instead of Letro unless you started to feel or get gyno sides and the Nolvadex is as you said, it's 50/50 so just watch how you are feeling with it. I think your first laid out plan looks fine.

    Instead of trying to run to much during the cycle (T3) why not wait until after your PCT?

  7. #7
    THE-DET-OAK is offline Banned
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    I agree with the time on tren -ive ran it for much longer than that. I dont think you need dbol though, ace works just as fast.

    why not just run test and tren for 10 weeks bro-tren is so strong you really dont need anything else.

  8. #8
    Swollen26 is offline New Member
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    Lovbyts - So are you saying to stick with my original plan cycle and just save the clen /T3 until after my pct

    I know you said stick with the A-dex instead of the letro but what are your thoughts about incorporating caber or dostinex throughout the cycle?

    Also cappybye suggested dropping the clomid and incorporating Exemestane @ 25/day during my PCT. I was going to take his suggestion on that what are your thoughts?

  9. #9
    Swollen26 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    I agree with the time on tren -ive ran it for much longer than that. I dont think you need dbol though, ace works just as fast.

    why not just run test and tren for 10 weeks bro-tren is so strong you really dont need anything else.
    Yeah a friend of mine had suggested that as well. I just used the D-bol for the first time during my last cycle to jump start the sust and decca and had great results which is why I included it but this is my first fast acting cycle so I was thinking myself it might not be needed.

  10. #10
    THE-DET-OAK is offline Banned
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    it isnt dude, you wont need it. for me the real dbol gains come in week 3, same with ace. also there is no need to run your test @ 150mg. 100 is plenty, i do 75. reason being tren is 5x more anabolic and 5x more androgenic than test. they compete for the same receptors, i would rather have the tren hitting those receptors. you just need enough T to make sure your dick works.

    right now im doing test p 75mg eod and tren 130mg eod and have found that is the best dosage for me.

  11. #11
    Swollen26 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    it isnt dude, you wont need it. for me the real dbol gains come in week 3, same with ace. also there is no need to run your test @ 150mg. 100 is plenty, i do 75. reason being tren is 5x more anabolic and 5x more androgenic than test. they compete for the same receptors, i would rather have the tren hitting those receptors. you just need enough T to make sure your dick works.

    right now im doing test p 75mg eod and tren 130mg eod and have found that is the best dosage for me.
    Okay thanks alot for the help, I made the adjusment to my cycle in original post, I bumped the tren up to 100mg EOD and drop the test to 100mg EOD.

    What do you do for your PCT I made some minor adjustments to mine in the original post i added Exemestane 25mg ED to run along with the clomid and nolva but i still havnt added any caber/dostinex to use along with the arimidex during my cycle. Is this similar to what you use?
    Last edited by Swollen26; 05-02-2011 at 01:01 PM.

  12. #12
    THE-DET-OAK is offline Banned
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    There are only about 4 ways to do a proper PCT. The differences simply relate to how many cycles you've done and how suppressive your cycle will be.

    PCT is a learning process, all ancillaries will have a varying degree of effectiveness from person to person. The trick is finding whats right for you.

    SERM's or Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator.

    Clomid
    Nolva
    Torimefine

    The idea of a SERM for PCT is simple. SERM's act like an estrogen or anti-estrogen in our bodies. How they act will depend on the compound and the tissue it is in.

    Basically a SERM competes with estrogen for the estrogen receptor and wins. This means it will attach itself to the estrogen receptor before estrogen has a chance to. Estrogen will still be circulating in your blood but it will not be able to attach itself to the estrogen receptor's.

    This action tricks the body into thinking that there is no estrogen. Our body decides that it needs to make more. The only way we can make more estrogen is by producing more testosterone to convert to estrogen. This is how a SERM stimulates LH and FSH. LH and FSH are hormones in our body that regulate testosterone production. The higher the amount of these hormones per blood volume simply means the signal is more abundant. This will attempt to speed up the process of testosterone production.

    Recap: SERM stimulates LH and FSH.

    HCG or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin
    HCG comes in a powder form. It is then mixed with certain type's of water to make the solution. This solution is then injected into the subcutaneous tissue.

    HCG mimics the LH signal. Basically what you are doing when you inject HCG is injecting an exogenous source of counterfeit LH.

    This counterfeit LH will signal the testes to produce testosterone even though your on other suppressive compound's. Keep in mind it is LH and FSH that are suppressed by AAS.

    Since the body recognizes this compound as its own LH it will simultaneously tell the body not to produce LH. Therefore HCG is suppressive to our endogenous LH signal.

    HCG will also stimulate the pituitary. GNRH is a hormone recieved by the pituitary. Once the pituitary receives this hormone it will send out the LH and FSH signal.

    HCG will stimulate pituitary but it will stimulate pituitary at a much higher rate when total serum T levels are on the decline. Basically when you stop injecting suppressive compounds the level of that compound in our body will slowly decline, at a rate that depends on ester length.

    These alpha sub-units control factors that provide the material that our testes need to produce testosterone, not just the signal to do so. It provides this material through various metabolic pathways.

    AI or Aromatase Inhibitor

    For this discussion we will only talk about Aromasin (Exemestane).

    Since Aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor its effectiveness is not altered by the use of a SERM. When type II inhibitors such as Letro and Adex are used in conjunction with a SERM their effectiveness is substantially weakened.

    AI's will attach themselves to the aromatase enzyme. This will slow the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, therefore lowering total estrogen levels.

    Once a suppressive compound has left our bodies (during SERM treatment) the testosterone to estrogen ratio is imbalanced. This means our estrogen is higher than our testosterone. This is why we feel like crap during this time.

    In an attempt to keep this ratio somewhat normal I suggest taking Aromasin alongside your SERM. This should help ease the "pain" during SERM treatment. Aromasin has also been shown to raise testosterone levels , although only temporarily.

    Ok now that we got that out of the way we can talk about the different types of protocol's you guys should be running for your PCT.

    First we will talk about SERM treatment. SERM treatment will be a part of every single cycle you ever do. It is the most basic form of PCT. SERM dosages will never change depending on the cycle, only the timing of when to start your SERM treatment changes.

    Light cycles and first and second timer's


    A light cycle to me is a cycle with testosterone only, Anavar or Primo. Since I would never recommend any cycle without testosterone I will only provide timing for the different ester's of testosterone.

    This is a PCT for guys that do not wish to play with HCG on their first cycle. Many many guys use only a SERM to recover form testosterone only cycles and recover rather quickly.

    Testosterone Propionate

    5-7 days after last injection start SERM treatment.

    Testosterone Enanthate and Cypionate .

    14-21 days after your last injection start your SERM treatment.

    Sustanon

    21-30 days after your last injection start your SERM treatment.

    Choices

    #1 Clomid 50mg every day for 4-6 weeks.

    #2 Torimefine 30-60mg every day for 4-6 weeks.

    #3 Nolva 40mg for 14 days and then 20mg for 14-28 more days.

    #4 Clomid and Nolva combo.
    Clomid 50/50/50/50
    Nolva 20/20/10/10/10/10

    It is my opinion that everyone should run 25mg of Aromasin every day during there SERM treatment. Right from the beginning to the end. You do not have to do this.

    As I said before every cycle will have one of the SERM treatments above. You will start your SERM treatment depending on the ester length of your testosterone. HCG will not have an impact on changing your SERM treatment. We will simply add HCG to our current protocols.

    HCG for light cycles. Choose one of the following. #2 is best buts it not always practical for new guys.

    #1 Use 500iu's of HCG every day for the 10 days leading up to 4 days before your SERM treatment.

    #2 Use 500iu's a week of HCG for your entire cycle. Then use 500iu's every day for the 10 days leading up to 4 days before SERM treatment.

    HCG for heavy cycles.

    I consider any cycle with a progesterone, 3 or more compounds or any cycle that includes any compounds that are not in the light cycle category, a heavy cycle.

    Use 1,000 iu's a week during the cycle. Do this for 5 consecutive weeks, take a week off and start again. If you get 5,000 iu bottles of HCG you will simply run 1,000iu's a week until the bottle is gone, then take a week off and start a new bottle. Do this the entire cycle.

    Blast Phase Part 2 of HCG for heavy cycles. This phase should be ran in addition to the weekly dose during the heavy cycle.

    Blast your HCG during the time period you are waiting for the suppressive compounds to leave your system. This is the time period starting the day after your last injection up until 4 days before SERM treatment. The blast Phase should consist of one of the following:

    #1 500iu's every day.
    #2 750iu's every day.
    #3 1,000iu's every other day.
    #4 1,500iu's every other day.

    Since HCG directly stimulate's aromatization in the leydig cells some people can develop Gyno when taking high doses of HCG. You need to get a sense of how sensitive you are to HCG when determining how you want to run your blast phase. If you are sensitive start with every day dosing.

    There are 3 reasons to run a blast phase of HCG

    #1 To test the testicles to see if they are still able to produce testosterone at their maximum capacity. If they can not produce testosterone at their maximum capacity you have developed secondary hypogonadism. It would be wise to get a blood test done during this time to see if the testicles are producing enough testosterone to get your testosterone levels within physiological range. If they are not, there is no point in SERM treatment at this time and more HCG is needed. When I say more, that may mean a higher dose for longer duration, or just a longer duration.

    #2 By blasting during this time we are ensuring that our testosterone is within physiological range, thus attempting to prevent going catabolic.

    #3 To stimulate the pituitary. This will provide the material the testes need to produce testosterone.

  13. #13
    THE-DET-OAK is offline Banned
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    i dont use dopamine agonist, i think the are used unecessarily. most of the time you wont have problems as long as you keep estro in check. prolactin is usually fueled by high estrogen.

  14. #14
    Swollen26 is offline New Member
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    Awesome post!
    Thanks alot for the help DET-OAK you really cleared things up for me as for this is not just my first cycle using Tren but also HCG . I made your suggested adjustments in my original post and now feel really confident in starting my cycle thanks alot for all the help.

  15. #15
    Tlee8769's Avatar
    Tlee8769 is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE-DET-OAK View Post
    There are only about 4 ways to do a proper PCT. The differences simply relate to how many cycles you've done and how suppressive your cycle will be.

    PCT is a learning process, all ancillaries will have a varying degree of effectiveness from person to person. The trick is finding whats right for you.

    SERM's or Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator.

    Clomid
    Nolva
    Torimefine

    The idea of a SERM for PCT is simple. SERM's act like an estrogen or anti-estrogen in our bodies. How they act will depend on the compound and the tissue it is in.

    Basically a SERM competes with estrogen for the estrogen receptor and wins. This means it will attach itself to the estrogen receptor before estrogen has a chance to. Estrogen will still be circulating in your blood but it will not be able to attach itself to the estrogen receptor's.

    This action tricks the body into thinking that there is no estrogen. Our body decides that it needs to make more. The only way we can make more estrogen is by producing more testosterone to convert to estrogen. This is how a SERM stimulates LH and FSH. LH and FSH are hormones in our body that regulate testosterone production. The higher the amount of these hormones per blood volume simply means the signal is more abundant. This will attempt to speed up the process of testosterone production.

    Recap: SERM stimulates LH and FSH.

    HCG or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin
    HCG comes in a powder form. It is then mixed with certain type's of water to make the solution. This solution is then injected into the subcutaneous tissue.

    HCG mimics the LH signal. Basically what you are doing when you inject HCG is injecting an exogenous source of counterfeit LH.

    This counterfeit LH will signal the testes to produce testosterone even though your on other suppressive compound's. Keep in mind it is LH and FSH that are suppressed by AAS.

    Since the body recognizes this compound as its own LH it will simultaneously tell the body not to produce LH. Therefore HCG is suppressive to our endogenous LH signal.

    HCG will also stimulate the pituitary. GNRH is a hormone recieved by the pituitary. Once the pituitary receives this hormone it will send out the LH and FSH signal.

    HCG will stimulate pituitary but it will stimulate pituitary at a much higher rate when total serum T levels are on the decline. Basically when you stop injecting suppressive compounds the level of that compound in our body will slowly decline, at a rate that depends on ester length.

    These alpha sub-units control factors that provide the material that our testes need to produce testosterone, not just the signal to do so. It provides this material through various metabolic pathways.

    AI or Aromatase Inhibitor

    For this discussion we will only talk about Aromasin (Exemestane).

    Since Aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor its effectiveness is not altered by the use of a SERM. When type II inhibitors such as Letro and Adex are used in conjunction with a SERM their effectiveness is substantially weakened.

    AI's will attach themselves to the aromatase enzyme. This will slow the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, therefore lowering total estrogen levels.

    Once a suppressive compound has left our bodies (during SERM treatment) the testosterone to estrogen ratio is imbalanced. This means our estrogen is higher than our testosterone. This is why we feel like crap during this time.

    In an attempt to keep this ratio somewhat normal I suggest taking Aromasin alongside your SERM. This should help ease the "pain" during SERM treatment. Aromasin has also been shown to raise testosterone levels , although only temporarily.

    Ok now that we got that out of the way we can talk about the different types of protocol's you guys should be running for your PCT.

    First we will talk about SERM treatment. SERM treatment will be a part of every single cycle you ever do. It is the most basic form of PCT. SERM dosages will never change depending on the cycle, only the timing of when to start your SERM treatment changes.

    Light cycles and first and second timer's


    A light cycle to me is a cycle with testosterone only, Anavar or Primo. Since I would never recommend any cycle without testosterone I will only provide timing for the different ester's of testosterone.

    This is a PCT for guys that do not wish to play with HCG on their first cycle. Many many guys use only a SERM to recover form testosterone only cycles and recover rather quickly.

    Testosterone Propionate

    5-7 days after last injection start SERM treatment.

    Testosterone Enanthate and Cypionate .

    14-21 days after your last injection start your SERM treatment.

    Sustanon

    21-30 days after your last injection start your SERM treatment.

    Choices

    #1 Clomid 50mg every day for 4-6 weeks.

    #2 Torimefine 30-60mg every day for 4-6 weeks.

    #3 Nolva 40mg for 14 days and then 20mg for 14-28 more days.

    #4 Clomid and Nolva combo.
    Clomid 50/50/50/50
    Nolva 20/20/10/10/10/10

    It is my opinion that everyone should run 25mg of Aromasin every day during there SERM treatment. Right from the beginning to the end. You do not have to do this.

    As I said before every cycle will have one of the SERM treatments above. You will start your SERM treatment depending on the ester length of your testosterone. HCG will not have an impact on changing your SERM treatment. We will simply add HCG to our current protocols.

    HCG for light cycles. Choose one of the following. #2 is best buts it not always practical for new guys.

    #1 Use 500iu's of HCG every day for the 10 days leading up to 4 days before your SERM treatment.

    #2 Use 500iu's a week of HCG for your entire cycle. Then use 500iu's every day for the 10 days leading up to 4 days before SERM treatment.

    HCG for heavy cycles.

    I consider any cycle with a progesterone, 3 or more compounds or any cycle that includes any compounds that are not in the light cycle category, a heavy cycle.

    Use 1,000 iu's a week during the cycle. Do this for 5 consecutive weeks, take a week off and start again. If you get 5,000 iu bottles of HCG you will simply run 1,000iu's a week until the bottle is gone, then take a week off and start a new bottle. Do this the entire cycle.

    Blast Phase Part 2 of HCG for heavy cycles. This phase should be ran in addition to the weekly dose during the heavy cycle.

    Blast your HCG during the time period you are waiting for the suppressive compounds to leave your system. This is the time period starting the day after your last injection up until 4 days before SERM treatment. The blast Phase should consist of one of the following:

    #1 500iu's every day.
    #2 750iu's every day.
    #3 1,000iu's every other day.
    #4 1,500iu's every other day.

    Since HCG directly stimulate's aromatization in the leydig cells some people can develop Gyno when taking high doses of HCG. You need to get a sense of how sensitive you are to HCG when determining how you want to run your blast phase. If you are sensitive start with every day dosing.

    There are 3 reasons to run a blast phase of HCG

    #1 To test the testicles to see if they are still able to produce testosterone at their maximum capacity. If they can not produce testosterone at their maximum capacity you have developed secondary hypogonadism. It would be wise to get a blood test done during this time to see if the testicles are producing enough testosterone to get your testosterone levels within physiological range. If they are not, there is no point in SERM treatment at this time and more HCG is needed. When I say more, that may mean a higher dose for longer duration, or just a longer duration.

    #2 By blasting during this time we are ensuring that our testosterone is within physiological range, thus attempting to prevent going catabolic.

    #3 To stimulate the pituitary. This will provide the material the testes need to produce testosterone.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Great advice bud a lot of useful information in that post.

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