Now I'm really confused.

[Catch]

Me- 35, 5'7", 195, 12%, 20yrs in the gym.

This is my first cycle. 300ml/wk Deca . 400ml/wk Sus.

While I gather that PCT isn't compound dependent, I assume the dosages and duration is. I'll be running the Deca for 10 and Sus for 12 weeks.

Now, after my initial research I concluded that I was going to use Nolvadex for PCT. 40/40/20/20 starting 2 weeks after my last dose of Sus. But after delving further into the matter, I'm not so sure that Nolvadex alone is enough. Is it?

There is a dizzying amount of information, opinion and conjecture on the matter and I'm not sure which sticky, research article or thread response to go by. I've seen differing info and opinions on ALL of it. And that included when to start what.

HCG seems like it's a must. Is that correct? 500-1000IU starting when? And to cease 1-2 weeks before stopping the Nolvadex? I'ce also seen mention of "clen ", vitamin E, a few other things I've never heard of and there are way too many conflicting outlooks on the use of Clomid.

And just to throw it out there, I've also read that adding Winstrol toward te end of my Deca/Sus cycle running right up until I begin PCT is a good thing to do. I have access to Winstrol so... Is it?

Any help, advice or PCT regimen suggestions would be greatly appreciated to help me wade through the incredible amount of information and/or misinformation.

[Windex]

Me- 35, 5'7", 195, 12%, 20yrs in the gym.

This is my first cycle. 300ml/wk Deca . 400ml/wk Sus.

While I gather that PCT isn't compound dependent, I assume the dosages and duration is. I'll be running the Deca for 10 and Sus for 12 weeks.

Now, after my initial research I concluded that I was going to use Nolvadex for PCT. 40/40/20/20 starting 2 weeks after my last dose of Sus. But after delving further into the matter, I'm not so sure that Nolvadex alone is enough. Is it?

There is a dizzying amount of information, opinion and conjecture on the matter and I'm not sure which sticky, research article or thread response to go by. I've seen differing info and opinions on ALL of it. And that included when to start what.

HCG seems like it's a must. Is that correct? 500-1000IU starting when? And to cease 1-2 weeks before stopping the Nolvadex? I'ce also seen mention of "clen ", vitamin E, a few other things I've never heard of and there are way too many conflicting outlooks on the use of Clomid.

And just to throw it out there, I've also read that adding Winstrol toward te end of my Deca/Sus cycle running right up until I begin PCT is a good thing to do. I have access to Winstrol so... Is it?

Any help, advice or PCT regimen suggestions would be greatly appreciated to help me wade through the incredible amount of information and/or misinformation.

Have you started your cycle yet ? If not you should drop deca it and save it for next cycle. A first cycle should be one compound only so that if you encounter side effects you know what is causing it. Nolvadex is never enough unless your doing a Prohormone/ Designer steroid cycle. Do not worry about winstrol whatsoever and do not take it.

Unless your being shut down for 16+ weeks or have a high dose of a particular compound your PCT is more or less going to be universal.

All of your answers to your questions could have been found if you had taken 2 minutes to use the search tool or read all the sticky information at the top. However, I'm in a relatively good mood.

Assuming your cycle is:

Week 1-12 400 mg/wk Sus
Week 1-10 300 mg/wk Deca

Then ON CYCLE THERAPY should be:

Week 1-12 500 IU's of HCG (Injected twice a week at 250 IU's)
Week 1-12 Aromasin 12.5mg EOD OR 0.5 mg Armidex 0.5mg EOD (Neither drug is strictly better than the other, pick one and see how it affects you. Use the other one for a second cycle and see which is more appropriate for your body).

And PCT Should be:
[Slashes represent weeks]

Nolvadex: 40/20/20/20/20/20 mg Every day
Clomid: 50/50/25/25/25/25 mg Every day OR Torem @ 120/120/60/60/60/60 mg Every day

If you want you can incorporate 1000 IU's Vit E / 1000 mg Vit C / 100 mg Vit B6 every day of PCT, although it is not necessary.



The only question I cannot answer is when to start PCT due to Sustanon have multiple esters. I believe it's 14 days but there is a sticky that has the half lives of each ester.

[Catch]

Wow. Great info. Thanks for the reply. And thanks for spellin it out for me. I only make threads as a last resort because I promise I read all of the stickies and had been searching for hours. Seemed like the more I read, the more confused I became.

Unfortunately, I have already begun my cycle. I'm in week 5. Should I begin your suggested on cycle therapy asap or is it too late? I will add Clomid or Torem to my PCT so thanks for that.

And do you mean avoid Winstrol altogether? Or just during this cycle? Because, I was considering a Winstrol cycle as my next one after proper time off.

[Windex]

Wow. Great info. Thanks for the reply. And thanks for spellin it out for me. I only make threads as a last resort because I promise I read all of the stickies and had been searching for hours. Seemed like the more I read, the more confused I became.

Unfortunately, I have already begun my cycle. I'm in week 5. Should I begin your suggested on cycle therapy asap or is it too late? I will add Clomid or Torem to my PCT so thanks for that.

And do you mean avoid Winstrol altogether? Or just during this cycle? Because, I was considering a Winstrol cycle as my next one after proper time off.

No, start using HCG and do 2x 500 IU shots (1000 IU/week) instead and still run an AI EOD.

Why would you consider a "Winstrol Cycle" ? What exactly are your goals ? Also, every cycle requires Testosterone .

In addition, I would stop using deca and save it.

What is your diet like ?

Seems like you should've done a lot more research before hoping into a cycle, no offense.

[Catch]

No offense taken, because honestly, it woildn't matter what cycle, therapy or PCT I posted. Someone would would have something negative to say about it or a differing opinion than yours.

That's why I'm so confused on PCT. While your suggestion "sounds" great, it seems like if I ask 10 different people, I will get 10 different PCT's. Read 10 different stickies, get 10 different answers, search 10 times....

I was really hesitant to post on this board because I've seen how people get put on blast. I understand most of it because we aren't baking cookies, here. But for those of us who actually do some research, seek advice, read for hours on the web and utilize "search" functions, it makes me want to just give up on the whole friggin evolution.

I don't take jabbing a needle full of drugs in my ass lightly. This isn't a joke to me. I don't dope up and go to the gym and do curls for an hour straight like I see most of the idiots on gear in there doing. I do big movements and muscle groups. Biceps don't get any more attention than anything else. Or any group for that matter. I swap my routine up, but currently it's 4 on/1 off, chest/tri, back/bi, shoulders/abs, and legs before my off day.

I haven't had a candy bar or a coke in years. Lean meats, tons of fruits and veggies and at least 200g of protein a day. Whey before and after my workout and casein the rest of the day. I don't count calories like a woman.

My goal? Pack on some rock hard muscle and get lean(er). Do I compete? No? Do I ever plan to? No. I do it because I love it. Looking good naked is just a bonus to me. My girl would still be with me if I was fat. Every minute I spend in the gym makes me feel like I earn another minute on this earth. I like being healthy and people who take no pride in themselves annoy me.

I don't know why the big fukin rant... I just don't want y'all thinking I'm some newbie, pencil neck nerd who wants "bigger biceps" coming in here without doing research and who think doing AAS is a ****in joke.

If you think I should drop the Deca (or all of this shit for that matter), I will. I appreciate your concern for my health but lecturing me on my lack of research concerning on cycle therapy does me no good at this point.

[Windex]

No offense taken, because honestly, it woildn't matter what cycle, therapy or PCT I posted. Someone would would have something negative to say about it or a differing opinion than yours.

That's why I'm so confused on PCT. While your suggestion "sounds" great, it seems like if I ask 10 different people, I will get 10 different PCT's. Read 10 different stickies, get 10 different answers, search 10 times....

I was really hesitant to post on this board because I've seen how people get put on blast. I understand most of it because we aren't baking cookies, here. But for those of us who actually do some research, seek advice, read for hours on the web and utilize "search" functions, it makes me want to just give up on the whole friggin evolution.

I don't take jabbing a needle full of drugs in my ass lightly. This isn't a joke to me. I don't dope up and go to the gym and do curls for an hour straight like I see most of the idiots on gear in there doing. I do big movements and muscle groups. Biceps don't get any more attention than anything else. Or any group for that matter. I swap my routine up, but currently it's 4 on/1 off, chest/tri, back/bi, shoulders/abs, and legs before my off day.

I haven't had a candy bar or a coke in years. Lean meats, tons of fruits and veggies and at least 200g of protein a day. Whey before and after my workout and casein the rest of the day. I don't count calories like a woman.

My goal? Pack on some rock hard muscle and get lean(er). Do I compete? No? Do I ever plan to? No. I do it because I love it. Looking good naked is just a bonus to me. My girl would still be with me if I was fat. Every minute I spend in the gym makes me feel like I earn another minute on this earth. I like being healthy and people who take no pride in themselves annoy me.

I don't know why the big fukin rant... I just don't want y'all thinking I'm some newbie, pencil neck nerd who wants "bigger biceps" coming in here without doing research and who think doing AAS is a ****in joke.

If you think I should drop the Deca (or all of this shit for that matter), I will. I appreciate your concern for my health but lecturing me on my lack of research concerning on cycle therapy does me no good at this point.

The reason I had suggested dropping Deca is because it's your first cycle and you want to fully understand how your body reacts to exclusively Testosterone and what kind of side effects you develop. This is because you need Test as a base for every cycle so it will be very beneficial to know how you react if you intend to have future cycles. For example, both Deca and Test sometimes can cause acne problems, so if you ended up having acne either on cycle or when coming off, you wouldn't know what caused it. Another example would be if you did a high'ish dose of Test (say 600 - 750mg/wk) and some other compound @ a low dose, you again wouldn't know if you were getting side effects because your body can't handle that high a dose or because it's the second compound causing trouble.

The bolded part implies you do strive for a healthy lifestyle, but I'd like to clarify that healthy eating and eating for bodybuilding are mutually exclusive concepts. While your motivation and work ethic should not be discredited, I think you have lots of room for improvement to become even more healthy and also tone up your body. I'd recommend posting a typical day of what you eat, along with what times you eat up in the diet section of the forums.

Fortunately, steroids do not melt bodyfat like magic nor do they turn you into a Calvin Klein model or Ronnie Coleman overnight. Regardless of what your goals are like, dieting, training, and cardio are your three foundations that will constantly be adjusted based on what you currently are striving for.

Most "cutting" steroids moreso give you the ability to preserve muscle / add lean muscle when being calorie deficit and continue to give you strength to keep lifting heavy. Therefore, by the end of the cycle you have a higher ratio of Muscle Mass : Bodyfat so you appear more "cut", although in actuality it's the diet and cardio that is helping you get rid of the fat on your body.

Whether you want to prematurely end your cycle is up to you. My PCT advise remains the same whether you want to continue with deca, without deca, or stop the cycle all together. Regardless, I would recommend getting bloodwork done 6 weeks after your PCT and have the following checked:

- Testosterone (Free & Total)
- Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH)
- Leutinizing Hormone (LH)
- Prolactin
- Red Blood Cell Count (RBC Count)
- Lipid Panel

I may have forgotten one or two, it's late.


The biggest controversy of PCT from what I have found is 4 weeks @ a higher dose versus 6 weeks @ lower dose. I believe for an in-depth scientific reasoning I would talk to Swifto as he is the PCT Expert in my opinion. Also, it's always good to check the dates of your research as some stuff is outdated. One reason I advocate a 6 week PCT protocol is because it means you have to wait an additional 4 weeks before you cycle again. Typically (exception = bloodwork showing you've fully recovered), the length of your cycle plus the length of your PCT = the amount of time before you cycle again. So a 12 week cycle with a 6 week pct means 18 weeks before you cycle again. An extra 2 weeks of pct means 2 weeks longer of a cycle and 2 weeks longer of off time (extra 4 weeks).

Ultimately, just choose a PCT protocol and see how it affects you, and if you get positive results then stick to that method. Everyone's body is different and will react differently, see what works for you. The only "requirements" of On / Post Cycle Therapy in my opinion are as follows:

- Running an Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) on cycle (Options = Aromasin , Armidex, and Letrozole )
- Running HCG for every week of the cycle @ Atleast 500 IU's/week
- Running atleast 2 SERMS (Torem, Nolvadex , Clomid) for atleast 4 weeks.
- Getting bloodwork done 1 - 21 days before cycle and 4-6 weeks after PCT