PCT clomid making me feel worse?

[meatsncheese]

So after a small cycle i ran awhile ago (about 6 months ago) i finally got bloods to see why I've been having trouble getting hard and watery semen. I got some clomid and started running that at 25mg a day along with some natty boosters and DAA. At first i felt great with the natty booster and had good sex drive and everything but after a few days of the clomid i feel worse then i EVER have. My balls hang lower but not really bigger and sex drive and erections are almost non existent. Is this a normal response? Usually i read guys feeling worse during pct because they just got off a cycle and have low test to begin with but my levels wern't that bad going into the clomid so shouldnt i be feeling better everyday? Heres my labs a couple weeks before starting clomid too

Estradiol: 33 (10-40)
fsh: 2.6 (1-18)
lh: 2.6 (1.8-8.6)
Free test: 14.3 (5.25-20.7)
Total Test: 422 (290-950)
Prolactin: Dont remember but it was good

[Guineapig]

Are those the values before starting DAA + Clomid? If the Clomid is legit then you may simply ill-responded to the estrogen replacement at the estrogen receptor sites which happens with clomid. Test again, I believe you will see increased LH and FSH together with higher serum test/E2. Maybe switch to another SERM but the values you posted seem normal. Free test leans to the higher half of the range....

Do you have SHBG/Albumin values?

[meatsncheese]

Are those the values before starting DAA + Clomid? If the Clomid is legit then you may simply ill-responded to the estrogen replacement at the estrogen receptor sites which happens with clomid. Test again, I believe you will see increased LH and FSH together with higher serum test/E2. Maybe switch to another SERM but the values you posted seem normal. Free test leans to the higher half of the range....

Do you have SHBG/Albumin values?

Those levels are pre daa and about 6 months post cycle and i didnt have my shbg or the other one checked. I took ostarine and 1 and 4 andro if that helps at all

[Guineapig]

SERMS work by displacing estrogens from their receptor sites in a wide variety of tissues (including the hypothalamus and pituitary where it is needed), however estrogens are needed for normal body functions including libido. If you are effectively preventing estrogen-receptor binding you are disrupting a normal body function. For some this means ED and libido loss. However, testosterone should be high while on SERMS which is why you take them. Once you discountinue the Clomid and the drug clears, you should see an increase in libido.

[AllKindsOGains]

First of all, your first mistake was not running a pct immediately after your cycle. 6 months late there buddy.
As far as feeling worse, clomid does have side effects, but I would bet that assuming it's legit clomid, which isn't hard to come by..
It's something else. Either your diet, your sleep, shit even the weather and allergies affect us in ways that we all want to attribute to what we are "taking." So, "take" some time and really try to assess what your body is telling you-and it will require you to break open that laptop or phone and research possible links/connections with things that are going on in your life and going into your body.
If you really did cycle without a pct-
Next time cycle safely,
AKOG

[meatsncheese]

First of all, your first mistake was not running a pct immediately after your cycle. 6 months late there buddy.
As far as feeling worse, clomid does have side effects, but I would bet that assuming it's legit clomid, which isn't hard to come by..
It's something else. Either your diet, your sleep, shit even the weather and allergies affect us in ways that we all want to attribute to what we are "taking." So, "take" some time and really try to assess what your body is telling you-and it will require you to break open that laptop or phone and research possible links/connections with things that are going on in your life and going into your body.
If you really did cycle without a pct-
Next time cycle safely,
AKOG

I took a short 2 weeks of nolva but no changes so i figured being young i could bounce back with some time off. I wouldnt be asking around on the forums but im kind of out of time as i just started talking to a girl and im trying to get myself working fast here. Im working on getting some bloods right now but would an AI help with my current symptoms being ed, shrunk up everything, and lethargy? I know those symptoms go both ways on high or low e2 but my current bloods showed e2 at 33 with total test being low so would that be deemed a high estrogen to test ratio? Would it be already to try a low dose out and gauge how i feel?

[meatsncheese]

So Im bumping because i just finished taking clomid at 12.5mg ED for 4 weeks with a week of eod and got a total testosterone done (would have gotten e2 and others but the doc was kind of a prick and didnt want to help me at all) and to my surprise it was at an 1190. Problem is I still feel like garbage which I will still wait a couple weeks to see if i get better considering its too soon to tell coming off the clomid but judging by whats going on with my package I think I have high E2. My balls are shrunk and riding up way to high... way way to high.. same goes for everything else. Im very moody and emotional and I made an impatient decision and ordered some adex. Would it be wise to take a .5mg dose e3d and gauge how i feel? I wont have a chance at bloods until june 20th...

[Guineapig]

Look, if total testosterone i 1190 ng/dl obviously your HPTA is working. Whether it will stay that way is another matter, but for now the clomid is making your Hypothalamus and pituitary work and your testicles are responding well to the LH and FSH.

There are two additional issues:

1) Clomid has affinity for the estrogen receptor in your brain but does not exert the same estrogenic effects. Thus it will compete negating the full benefits of estrogen receptor activation in your tissues, especially the brain. This in turn will have detrimental effects on mood and libido. It's a fact. You may be unlucky to be sensitive to estrogen reduction in which case it is just a matter of clearing your system from the clomid (4 times clomiphene half-life is the basic time to complete clearance).

2) At the same time all that testosterone is being converted into estrogen thus it is now acting on some tissues but, most importantly, will run for the estrogen receptors once the clomiphene clears. This is the so-called PCT rebound. In some it can fully negate the positive T/E balance created by SERMS (estrogen will suddenly "appear" on the hypothalamus-pituitary radars and thus LH and FSH will decrease to reach homeostasis). This is why aromasin or any other suicidal inhibitor is best suited for the job. 12.5mg taken daily or 25mg EOD for 2 weeks after last dose of SERM will deactivate your aromatase enzyme.It will slowly be created in the adipose tissue after the aromasin clears hence the rise in estrogen from testosterone conversion will be slow and controlled. No "emergency bell" ringing in the hypothalamus and pituitary and thus no reason to decrease LH and FSH.

My suggestions: get a suicidal AI such as exemestane (aromasin). Dose 12.5 ED or EOD for two weeks and then new bloods. However, I think you are suffering from paranoia right now (possibly due to hormonal imbalance). There is no way you have testicular atrophy if you are putting out 1190 ng/dl of testosterone. In any event, if you had any, this kind of production rate will force some degree of testicular growth. Your balls are fine and are working.

Adex is not suicidal and will not accomplish the "ramp" effect desired to avoid rebound. Get a suicidal AI.

Take care.

[jonny2x4]

I though I'm the only one feeling that like with clomid. Thanks !

[meatsncheese]

Just got Estradiol, total testosterone , and shbg taken today so ill be back with results. I was taking .25mg of adex a day for 3 days now and only noticed slight low energy if anything. Might be bunk and i have some aromasin on the way right now but ill hold off on taking anymore AIs till i see the results. But if i get my results back and everything seems fine in those areas should i have anything else checked? T3 t4? I have a good family doctor who does anything i ask for so whatever worth getting checked I can get checked.

[meatsncheese]

New bloods

Total - 959 (240-950)
E2 - 94! (10-40)

I have aromasin and adex, what would be a good dose for either of those and will that bring those e2 levels down? I was reading around and dont know if i understood right but something about AIs not working for elevated e2 levels caused by serms?

[Guineapig]

AI will inhibit aromatase and since this is the main pathway for estrogen production in the male body, it will lower estrogen.

However, you may not be feeling estrogen in your brain as the receptor site is being "hijacked" by the SERM molecule (selective estrogen receptor modulator).

Take 12.5g of aromasin EOD or even E3D

It is powerful stuff and continue taking itfor at least 2 weeks after termination of SERMS. Then cut it out and your estrogen levels will rise to normal levels.

[meatsncheese]

AI will inhibit aromatase and since this is the main pathway for estrogen production in the male body, it will lower estrogen.

However, you may not be feeling estrogen in your brain as the receptor site is being "hijacked" by the SERM molecule (selective estrogen receptor modulator).

Take 12.5g of aromasin EOD or even E3D

It is powerful stuff and continue taking itfor at least 2 weeks after termination of SERMS. Then cut it out and your estrogen levels will rise to normal levels.

I ended the serm 2 weeks ago, should i follow that same protocol? Thanks for the quick response

[Guineapig]

You obviously have SERMS in your system and the estrogen is building up. I would suggest 2 to 3 weeks of aromasin 12.5g EOD or even E3D. You might feel like crap (worse than with the CLOMID) but you will be doing yourself a favour.

In time you will feel better without rebound

[meatsncheese]

So I took Aromasin 12.5mg a day for 4 days (almost 25mg on the 4th day) pretty overkill i know but around the 4th day i felt very tired and weak so i stopped using and got bloods about 5 days later. The results were estradiol 49 (10-40). Unfortunatley i dont have any other tests besides that but with the information above is it safe to say the aromasin i have was real and was doing its job or was that just my body doing its own work? Also i took the aromasin about a week after my last bloods showing estradiol at a 92 and got bloods 5 days after using aromasin (so about 2 weeks from the last bloodwork to the current one) is that enough time for my body to naturally lower levels that much or was it indeed the aromasin i was using?

[meatsncheese]

Bump, can anyone help? Ive also noticed that morning wood has dissapeared completley since being done with pct (it was an everymorning thing during pct). Did my high estrogen drive my testosterone back into the floor? Ill have new bloods this week also.

[IncreaseMyT]

Did you use HCG for your HPTA restart? What kind of androgens were you on?

How old are you?

Yes sounds like high E conversion rate used up your testosterone (raw material).

If you need help with this we specialize in ASIH (anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism)

[meatsncheese]

Did you use HCG for your HPTA restart? What kind of androgens were you on?

How old are you?

Yes sounds like high E conversion rate used up your testosterone (raw material).

If you need help with this we specialize in ASIH (anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism)

No i didnt use hcg. I did 4 weeks of Ostarine and 2 weeks of 1 and 4 andro. Im 20.

[IncreaseMyT]

Well unfortunately I am not familiar with exactly how the pro-hormones you took work but I can tell you for some reason they can be even more suppressive than AAS. This is because most of them convert to other hormones once in the body that are far more suppressive than testosterone .

Clomid usually makes you feel pretty crappy, but it does raise TT levels well. These symptoms could simply be from lowering your estrogen too much.

My first question is what lead you to to try the performance enhancer to begin with? I ask this because I am wondering if your idiopathic hypogonadal:

The clinical characteristics of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism are androgen deficiency and a lack/delay/stop of pubertal sexual maturation. Low blood testosterone levels and low pituitary hormone levels confirm the hypogonadotropic hypogonadism diagnosis. A prolonged stimulated intravenous GnRH test can be useful. In Kallmann syndrome, cerebral MRI can show an anomalous morphology or even absence of the olfactory bulb.

Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism Revisited

I ask simply because these things are self-selection, those that have symptoms tend to seek things to boost those deficiencies.

Either way your probably going to want to do 4-6 weeks of HCG and get lab results while your on the HCG to see if it has re-senstized the testes. If so maybe another round of Serms will do it. If they are not sensitized first, clomid therapy fails.

I hope this makes sense and let me know if you have any questions.

Therapy for hypogonadotropic hypogonadism depends on the patient's desire for future fertility. Hormone replacement with testosterone is the classic treatment for hypogonadism. Androgen replacement is indicated for men who already have children or have no desire to induce pregnancy, and testosterone therapy is used to reverse the symptoms and signs of hypogonadism. Conversely, GnRH or gonadotropin therapies are the best options for men wishing to have children. Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is one of the rare conditions in which specific medical treatment can reverse infertility.

[meatsncheese]

What led me to try them was being young and looking for a shortcut. I might be wrong here but isnt hcg used to resensitize your testes to lh so that they then produce testosterone ? Previous bloodwork of mine after clomid shows very high total test which wouldnt that mean that my testes are fine and dont need hcg? Im going for new bloods this week too, so any suggestions for what i should get tested?

[IncreaseMyT]

Yea but it also stimulates DHT and E2 production which could be the issue.

If you were not low t to begin with then you just crashed your E2, I didn't see the 900 labs long thread.

Need to let it go up, I personally have seen it take months to come up, thats why I am not a fan of Aromasin .

[meatsncheese]

I never crashed my e2. Bloods were e2 at 96 then i took aromasin for 4 days and got new bloods a week and a half later showing e2 at a 49. My main question right now is was the aromasin legit and actually lowered my e2 or was it just my body doing it on its own? Keep in mind ive lost all morning wood and my theory is that the lowered e2 from my last bloods is just lower because it drove my testosterone down to stop the high amounts of e2.

[IncreaseMyT]

Your symptoms are of low E2. Yea you got a 49 reading but what is your E2 now? Your still taking the exem right?

Or did you take exem for four days and then stop?

This is very common BTW. I do not understand the logic behind a AI during or after Serm treatment.

[meatsncheese]

Here was my whole issue from start to finish. Stoped uaing ostarine and didnt pct. Had bad sexual functioning so got bloods 6 months later with a total test of 309 (290-950) waited a few months and got more things tested (my first post in this thread has the results) started clomid at 12.5mg a day for 4 weeks and didnt a small taper for a week and got more tests. High testosterone and high e2 but still had bad sexual functioning besides morning wood. Figured it was the high e2 because those were my main symptoms (weak erections, low libido, small testes) so i took exemastane for 4 days after my bloodwork showing e2 at 96 but got low e2 sides quickly (weak, tired, this is also when i started losing morning wood) so i stopped and got retested about a week and a half later to get the e2 results of 49. Again still have bad sexual functioning and its worse now with my morning wood dissapearing. My theory is the aromasin was bunk and the high e2 dropped testosterone down to in turn lower the high e2..?

[meatsncheese]

Also to add my bloods before going on clomid i had said that i didnt remember the prolactin reading but it was good. I got to see it the other day and it was a 14. (3-15) is the ref range i believe so is 14 pushing it? With the increase in e2 from clomid would that have put prolactin in a high range? I know that prolactin is what kills your wood after sex and ive noticed its killed almost instantly. Erection is down right after finishing so maybe thats worth mentioning also.

[IncreaseMyT]

No if your E2 goes down technically that would elevate your TT levels but I think you may be correct about the AI not working as well as it should have for one reason or another.

Usually when my E2 is high I still have a great sex drive, sometimes even better. Its when its low is when that goes away. Maybe your PRL is out of whack then. Weak erections and trouble maintaining one before ejaculation would be symptoms of PRL fluctuating. This usually happens when your E2 spikes like yours did.

Did you get that tested with the 92 and 49 E?

[IncreaseMyT]

haha you beat me to it Thats not extremely high I've seen worse just FYI but it could be affecting you.

[meatsncheese]

Yah that prolactin level was pre clomid too so it makes me wonder if thats the issue now with my e2 being 3 times as high after the clomid. What bloods would you recommend i get next to better figure out my issue? Some other things that may be worth mentioning was i have always had gyno (maybe indicates i have an estrogen/hormonal problem) my balls shrunk after taking those prohormones and havnt returned even with sufficient test levels, and i shoot blanks...

[IncreaseMyT]

Clomid just make you feel like crap. Because it also acts like an estrogen in men in certain tissues.

As per the always had gyno problem thats what I was pointing at when I brought up idiopathic hypo, those are the kind of symptoms you would have had.

Do you have labs coming already that you did? If so lets see those before we go to next step.

[meatsncheese]

I get them taken tommorow but I need to tell him what I want and I always seem to forget something. So with this next bloodwork I just want to get as much tested as possible. What I have so far lined up is

Total test
Free test
Lh
Fsh
E2
Prolactin
Dht
Dhea
T3
T4

Anymore?

[IncreaseMyT]

That looks pretty thorough

TSH
Thyroid antibodies
4 point cortisol salivary

^^^^ if it doesn't cost much and he will do it.

[meatsncheese]

So I kinda screwed up by telling my doc before i left that i had started clomid again for a week, so he said that he wants me to come back in a couple months and we can have all those checked (i had everything i mentioned earlier besides t3 and added progesterone.) I did catch a glimpes at my TSH from august of 2015 and it was at a .93 i think. Ref range is .3-5.0 or close to that, but is that pretty low? Would clomid have helped that?

[Juced_porkchop]

So I kinda screwed up by telling my doc before i left that i had started clomid again for a week, so he said that he wants me to come back in a couple months and we can have all those checked (i had everything i mentioned earlier besides t3 and added progesterone.) I did catch a glimpes at my TSH from august of 2015 and it was at a .93 i think. Ref range is .3-5.0 or close to that, but is that pretty low? Would clomid have helped that?

you didnt screw up by telling him, you screwed up by taking it.... get bloods while clean from EVERYTHING for a few weeks....

[meatsncheese]

True, I just have a nagging feeling that whats going wrong with me isnt related to anything that the clomid is doing and that i would benefit from getting bloods despite the results being skewed on the E2, Lh, Total T, etc. I took clomid for 4 weeks got bloods and saw good test levels and high estrogen then got retested a week later and saw moderate estrogen but also noticed i lost all morning wood. It just sucks when i read a lot of pct forem post from guys who do just clomid or nolva or even nothing at all and recover fine and im here after a mild cycle complety f*cked for the last year in every way possible. If i were to really drop everything right now and ride it out for the next couple months would i really just poof back to my old self? I understand the body takes a while to get itself working normal again but i just dont get why mine isnt doing it like so many others i read about lol. At first it was low test but good libido and weak erections then i took clomid and it was high test, low libido and moderate erections. Im very impatient if you havent guessed but have actually enjoyed the ride and knowlege ive gained from all of this but i feel like at some point it would be nice to be done with it and working properly again. My family doctor is an awesome guy who ive seen my whole life (he actually gave birth to me lol) and anytime i need bloods his respone is "whatever you want". but im worried now because he told me hes retiring in september and ive already seen how other docs are when i ask for bloods and they are not willing at all. I just want to do everything possible i can to get this right before i switch doctors and it seems like whatever i do something else gets blown out of whack. He did me a solid and prescribed me some viagra when i asked him today so I think that will help me not be so impatient since at least now i can perform till my body (hopefully) returns to normal. So, with all that said i suppose im wondering what my best course of action is here. Do i try clomid again but try and control estrogen? If i stay clean and get all tests done on everything will someone knowledgeable be able to put the puzzle together as to whats wrong? my doctor even said he wants to fix me before he leaves because he knows other doctors dont like to help. I appreciate the responses so far and hope someone has some more ideas or advice!

[IncreaseMyT]

Do you do well on the viagra? I would consider Cialis, because of its positive effects on BPH.

Hope you get it sorted.

[meatsncheese]

It works great, but it still doesnt help the phychological part of all this. knowing that in order to perform i have to pop a pill or if i go out I need to remember to bring my sex life in my back pocket just kinda sucks for a 20 year old lol. But could you answer if my TSH level of .9 (.5-4.5) is low?

[Heatonx13]

Looks great