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  1. #1
    RJS88 is offline New Member
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    Should I be worried?

    Hi all,

    I completed my first cycle in September. I am concerned that my own testosterone production isn't recovering. I am seeking advice on whether to perform a second PCT, or to simply be patient and wait. Details below. Any opinions or advice would be greatly appreciated!

    Age: 32
    Pre-cycle weight: 64 kg (141 lbs)
    Post-cycle weight: 72 kg (159 lbs)

    Pre-Cycle Blood Work:
    Testosterone: 13.8 nmol/L (398 ng/dL)
    SHBG: 31 nmol/L (294.5 ng/dL)
    Calc Free Test: 280 pmol/L
    LH: Not tested
    Prolactin: Not tested

    Cycle:
    Weeks 1 - 14 (14 weeks): 450 mg/wk Testosterone Enanthate

    PCT:
    Weeks 16 - 19 (4 weeks): Clomid 25 mg/day (50 mg/day caused minor headaches)

    Post-Cycle Blood Work:
    Week 27 (i.e. 7 weeks after PCT completed)
    Testosterone: 7.8 nmol/L (225 ng/dL)
    SHBG: Not tested (not sure why!)
    Calc Free Test: N/A
    LH: 3 IU/L (normal is <8 IU/L)
    Prolactin: 200 mIU/L (normal is <330 mIU/L)

    Observations:
    - My testicles shrunk during my cycle, but are almost back to normal size (maybe ~80 - 90% of original size).
    - I don't actually feel that bad, which is why the low testosterone result of 7.8 nmol/L is surprising. My libido was low during PCT, but I feel as though it's almost back to pre-cycle levels. My energy and mood is also slightly diminished compared to pre-cycle, but not significant.

    I was expecting a higher testosterone level 7 weeks after finishing PCT.

    Q1: Should I perform a second PCT? Or should I give my system more time?
    Q2: I have HCG , Clomid, and Nolvadex available to me. Would HCG provide any benefit in my case (i.e. a second PCT), or should I stick with a SERM only?
    Many articles recommend HCG as part of PCT. However, other articles indicate HCG is suppressive to HPTA, and using HCG may be counterproductive for "re-booting" my HPTA. I have seen doctors recommend HCG for PCT, but I don't have a good understanding of the reasoning (and read many conflicting opinions).

    Any opinions or advice would be greatly appreciated!

    Cheers,
    Rob.

  2. #2
    Cylon357's Avatar
    Cylon357 is online now Nice Guy Cy
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    Best practices in PCT utilize TWO SERMS, not one, clomid and nolvadex . They have synergies when used together. Some say that there is no benefit to running both, but my bloodwork says otherwise.

    That said, your LH is 3. It was likely 0 on cycle. So it appears to me that you are recovering, though slower than expected. I wouldn't say that a second full PCT would be of use, but maybe a short two week run with both clomid and nolvadex would be in order. I don't think it will hurt and based on your bloodwork, will likely get you back to normal quicker. Something like 10mg Nolvadex with 25mg clomid for two weeks.

    Hopefully someone else will chime in on this. My usage of clomid and nolvadex is from HRT, not PCT but I can tell the difference when I use them both.

  3. #3
    MILKMAN73 is offline New Member
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    I always always always recommend HCG during cycle and ramp it up during PCT.

    During cycle it's like nearly free gear. It's cheap and kicks on your natural production. Look at your before numbers, they were just under 400. You were using 450/week which shut down your natural production to zero.

    Now this math probably does not work out 100%, but let's say the HCG keeps your boys kicking at even 50%. You could pin 300/week, plus HCG, and your natural production should be higher, so you are close to that same 450/week you were pinning.

    Probably more than 50%, really. Then during PCT you ramp up the amount of HCG and then start your Nova/Clomid treatment like mentioned above. Boom, recovery!

  4. #4
    redz's Avatar
    redz is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    I always always always recommend HCG during cycle and ramp it up during PCT.

    During cycle it's like nearly free gear. It's cheap and kicks on your natural production. Look at your before numbers, they were just under 400. You were using 450/week which shut down your natural production to zero.

    Now this math probably does not work out 100%, but let's say the HCG keeps your boys kicking at even 50%. You could pin 300/week, plus HCG, and your natural production should be higher, so you are close to that same 450/week you were pinning.

    Probably more than 50%, really. Then during PCT you ramp up the amount of HCG and then start your Nova/Clomid treatment like mentioned above. Boom, recovery!
    That is not how it works... hcg just keeps things capable of producing the test which it still won’t do with synthetic testosterone in the body. Hcg up to pct is good not during.

    A ton of poor information gets spat out here. Op I would consult a doctor and see what options you have or run a second pct. If all else fails TRT is your last resort.

  5. #5
    MILKMAN73 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by redz View Post
    hcg just keeps things capable of producing the test which it still won’t do with synthetic testosterone in the body.
    And that's why HCG with test is the standard protocol for HRT now, not to mention has been common for cycles for over a decade.

    Hcg up to pct is good not during.
    Tell that to my doctor. Not to mention sample cycles right here on this website that say otherwise.
    Last edited by MILKMAN73; 11-28-2020 at 09:48 PM.

  6. #6
    RJS88 is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the advice gents. I will try a second PCT with Clomid + Nolvadex as suggested. I found an explanation as to why the combination may work well.

    https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/92...ichael-scally/
    The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol.

  7. #7
    RJS88 is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the advice gents. I am trying a second PCT with the combination of Clomid and Nolvadex as Cylon357 suggested. I found some information as to why the combination is beneficial (it looks like I can't include the link here - see below). I will get re-tested in a couple of months. In my early 20s, my testosterone result was 10.5 nmol/L (303 ng/dL), then 15 nmol/L (433 ng/dL) the following week, so either my levels fluctuate a lot, or the testing can be inaccurate. Hopefully the 7.8 nmol/L (225 ng/dL) wasn't representative.

    Dr. Michael Scally
    "The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol."

  8. #8
    DustMan is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJS88 View Post
    Thanks for the advice gents. I am trying a second PCT with the combination of Clomid and Nolvadex as Cylon357 suggested. I found some information as to why the combination is beneficial (it looks like I can't include the link here - see below). I will get re-tested in a couple of months. In my early 20s, my testosterone result was 10.5 nmol/L (303 ng/dL), then 15 nmol/L (433 ng/dL) the following week, so either my levels fluctuate a lot, or the testing can be inaccurate. Hopefully the 7.8 nmol/L (225 ng/dL) wasn't representative.

    Dr. Michael Scally
    "The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol."
    Testosterone is highly volatile, it can be influenced by lots of factors. If you want your tests to be as accurate as possible you should test first thing in the morning before having breakfast, after sleeping a full 8 hours, not being in a sleep deficit in general, eating at maintenance or a slight caloric surplus for the last week, and not having consumed alcohol or other recreational drugs in the last few days.

    I see Mike Scally's advice and his PCT protocol repeated more on this (and every other) steroid forum than every other persons advice combined, apparently he's the authority on the subject, I'd say it's always safe to follow his advice.

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