my blood test, very disappointed!

**bass** · 02-26-2010, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by adam15425

I would do cortisol now and wait on the free and total test until after pct. I just dont understand how his total test was higher after the s4 and then dropped almost 50% weeks later. I suspect the albuterol had some play in this although he said he did the albuterol 6 weeks ago. Looking at cortisol would be my first choice but I'm kind of stumped here. Also, I would drop the flax seed, some studies show it does in fact decrease testosterone. Might as well take that guess factor out ya know. At this point to get the best assessment would be to do a complete blood panel, pretty much test for everything hormonal related

i think I’ll do that...and i did drop the flax seeds altogether.

**adam15425** · 02-26-2010, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by bass

yes that’s who i used, i been feeling better already, not sure if its the effects of the PCT or placebo, also glad to report that my "Tinys" are coming back it seems, the right side is back to normal size and the left side almost but not there yet. sex drive still lower than normal.

BTW, what sides am I to expect from the PCT?

Sides vary. Some may get irritable, sort of woman, menstrual like at times haha. Maybe some acne from the hormone fluctuation. Nothing major as far as sides

**bass** · 02-26-2010, 11:01 AM

okay i have no clue which test to do, can you guys recommend it?

http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=all

**endus** · 02-26-2010, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by bass

yes that’s who i used, i been feeling better already, not sure if its the effects of the PCT or placebo, also glad to report that my "Tinys" are coming back it seems, the right side is back to normal size and the left side almost but not there yet. sex drive still lower than normal.

BTW, what sides am I to expect from the PCT?

Are you sure you weren't cold that day when checking? Also, if you were sick, that will definitely affect your test. What anti-biotic were you taking? Too many factors involved (s4, albutrol, sick, etc).

**adam15425** · 02-26-2010, 02:12 PM

Follicle-stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Luteinizing Hormone (LH)
Testosterone , Free (Direct), Serum With Total Testosterone
Sex Hormone binding Globulin, Serum
Estrogen Testing, Comprehensive Panel
Cortisol, AM

and possibly ...
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)

I mean it is totally up to you when to do the tests. I personally would wait until after pct instead of doing them now and then after

**bass** · 02-26-2010, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by endus

Are you sure you weren't cold that day when checking? Also, if you were sick, that will definitely affect your test. What anti-biotic were you taking? Too many factors involved (s4, albutrol, sick, etc).

yes but not sure about the cold, i still have a minor cough, that’s why i took the antibiotics. the antibiotics were Azithronmycin 250mg, it generic equivalent for Zithromax. i did the blood test 3 days after i was done with antibiotics.

**bass** · 02-26-2010, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by adam15425

Follicle-stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Luteinizing Hormone (LH)
Testosterone , Free (Direct), Serum With Total Testosterone
Sex Hormone binding Globulin, Serum
Estrogen Testing, Comprehensive Panel
Cortisol, AM

and possibly ...
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)

I mean it is totally up to you when to do the tests. I personally would wait until after pct instead of doing them now and then after

thanks Adam, i think i will wait since I’ve been feeling much better, its either the PCT or not eating the flax seeds, i don't know. BTW, would it be a good idea to do nothing for a week after PCT then do the test?

**adam15425** · 02-26-2010, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by bass

thanks Adam, i think i will wait since I’ve been feeling much better, its either the PCT or not eating the flax seeds, i don't know. BTW, would it be a good idea to do nothing for a week after PCT then do the test?

No problem. It's hard to say but you were eating a lot of flax seed haha. As for after PCT it's up to you. I dont think being active will skew the test results but make sure you follow their pre-testing procedures. I know some require a 12 hr fast or some specific protocol which if not followed will skew results.

**bass** · 02-26-2010, 07:34 PM

thanks again...

**bass** · 02-27-2010, 11:38 AM

feeling much better today, sex drive is coming back...

**adam15425** · 02-27-2010, 01:05 PM

good to hear! I actually was feeling low libido over the past two weeks and just dosed myself with 25mg of aromasin 2 days ago. Woke up today with an impressive morning wood. I'm beginning to think my estrogen levels may have been slightly elevated or the aromasin gave me a drastic spike in testosterone .

**bass** · 02-27-2010, 04:19 PM

wow, i just read about aromasin, it raises test and lowers estrogen! it made a difference in 2days, that’s amazing. but its also called a steroidal suicide aromatase inhibitor!

**adam15425** · 02-27-2010, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by bass

wow, i just read about aromasin, it raises test and lowers estrogen! it made a difference in 2days, that’s amazing. but its also called a steroidal suicide aromatase inhibitor!

Yepp, by lowering estrogen you raise test in your body. That's because your body doesn't measure the amount of test you have to determine if it should make more. The hpta "knows" that test is converted to estrogen by the aromatase. So when the hpta reads low estrogen it signals the testes to start producing more test. So when you use AIFM or similar aromatase inhibitor you lower your estrogen levels, this triggers the hpta to read "we need more test down there" and your test levels then go up as the testes start pumping it out. The aromatase inhibitor will continue to limit the conversion and the hpta will continue to read low estrogen and keep your natural test levels at the high side or normal.Once it binds it destroys the enzme. It doesnt suppress test at all, it is "steroidal" because how it binds to estrogen receptors. It also doesnt screw with your lipid profile like arimidex

**bass** · 02-27-2010, 05:12 PM

yea the more i read the more i am getting interested in this. now what is the harm of taking this stuff for some one my age 50 year old?

**adam15425** · 02-27-2010, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by bass

yea the more i read the more i am getting interested in this. now what is the harm of taking this stuff for some one my age 50 year old?

Now that I'm not quite sure of. Just the same as a SERM or any other AI like arimidex I assume

**endus** · 02-27-2010, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by bass

thanks Adam, i think i will wait since I’ve been feeling much better, its either the PCT or not eating the flax seeds, i don't know. BTW, would it be a good idea to do nothing for a week after PCT then do the test?

you can't recover that fast - it must been something else.

I'm taking a nose dive - I was getting little better but just got another hard crash. I have a feeling my nolva is not working much at this point. I'm going to include clomid to see if that does anything.

I also have some hcg - I got it few months ago but its in powder form? Should I do this? and what do you do with this powder?

**adam15425** · 02-27-2010, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by endus

I also have some hcg - I got it few months ago but its in powder form? Should I do this? and what do you do with this powder?

When ready reconstitute with bacteriostatic H2O and keep it in the fridge. Should be good almost up to 60 days but I never used it past 45

**endus** · 02-28-2010, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by adam15425

When ready reconstitute with bacteriostatic H2O and keep it in the fridge. Should be good almost up to 60 days but I never used it past 45

I will - Do I get that at drug store? Also where? Glute or quad - never done hcg either. Wonder if I could use smaller needle they use for diabetics.

**adam15425** · 02-28-2010, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by endus

I will - Do I get that at drug store? Also where? Glute or quad - never done hcg either. Wonder if I could use smaller needle they use for diabetics.

You can get it online, lemme find the site. But yea use insulin pins and you can inject almost anywhere I usually hit quads since I'm pretty lean there for a slin pin.

**endus** · 02-28-2010, 10:44 PM

Thanks - yeah, I'm a big baby. Anything to lessen the pain. Insulin needle would do - intra-muscular right?

**adam15425** · 02-28-2010, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by endus

Thanks - yeah, I'm a big baby. Anything to lessen the pain. Insulin needle would do - intra-muscular right?

http://www.evotrition.com/626-bacter...ater-30ml.html

But yepp IM. I mean you can go Sub-Q. Sub Q will take longer to absorb but last longer in your system, IM will hit you faster. Totally up to you. I've done doth and prefer IM. Could be just me but it seems like the ol' nuts get plumper with the same dosage IM than they would the same dosage Sub-Q haha

**Steroidman99** · 03-03-2010, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by bass

Guys i just did a blood test for free and total testosterone because for the first time in my life i felt i had no sex drive, or at least not as much as i always had. well as suspected here is my blood test, totally fvcked up. do you think i can get my doctor to put me on HRT?

Now the only thing I’ve done is S4, but my blood test after that showed my total test went up slightly, them about a 4-6 weeks ago I did Albuterol for 2 weeks at a high does (stupid of me I misunderstood the dose) but then stopped immediately and did nothing after that, that’s when I really felt things changing for me, could the Albuterol messed up my test?

223 ng/dl? This is great! I had 11.25 ng/dl three weeks ago, after an 8-week cycle on Anavar ! I am a post-menopausal woman now.

If you used 100 mg/day, you could expect roughly 50% suppression. All experience with S-4 I have seen so far agrees with this. I don't know, what happened with you and why you got such weird lab results, but in any case, this level of suppression is what you must reckon with when taking such a high dose of S-4. In theory, the suppression should start at 30 mg/day.

I just take S-4 for PCT, by the way, but only a small dose, 20-30 mg/day. Since my applicator is crappy, I must exactly measure, what a dose I actually take, in drops. The results are "mixed" so far. I went slightly up on some exercises, and slightly down on others. However, considering that normally I would be already crashing, it is not bad. I want to experiment with the dosage, to find out some ideal anti-catabolic dose that wouldn't interfere with my hormonal system.

**endus** · 03-03-2010, 03:26 PM

Why would you take S4 for PCT? Last thing you want to do is take something that will suppress. Even at lower dosage, if it not going to help you get back to normal level, its not PCT; you are just prolonging your cycle.

Why not just do a lower dose anavar - really no difference in logic - will not help you either way. That old buzz about S4 being not suppressive and is good compound for PCT is a myth.

**Necrosaro** · 03-03-2010, 04:20 PM

Pct is used to recover not to put something in that will prevent that. Why mess with the Pct and do it properly and get another cycle down the road?

**adam15425** · 03-03-2010, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Steroidman99

223 ng/dl? This is great!

If you used 100 mg/day, you could expect roughly 50% suppression. In theory, the suppression should start at 30 mg/day.

I just take S-4 for PCT, by the way, but only a small dose, 20-30 mg/day. Since my applicator is crappy, I must exactly measure, what a dose I actually take, in drops. The results are "mixed" so far. I went slightly up on some exercises, and slightly down on others. However, considering that normally I would be already crashing, it is not bad. I want to experiment with the dosage, to find out some ideal anti-catabolic dose that wouldn't interfere with my hormonal system.

Anything under 300ng/dL is BAD.

Those doses are just bro-science and speculation at this point with not near enough blood work by guys to prove it for everyone.

**bass** · 03-03-2010, 06:02 PM

just un update. looks like i am back to normal physically, sex drive is coming back as well but not where i was before, maybe because i am stressed out from the blood test results. i'll keep you posted.

**Steroidman99** · 03-04-2010, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by adam15425

Anything under 300ng/dL is BAD.

Those doses are just bro-science and speculation at this point with not near enough blood work by guys to prove it for everyone.

I plan another bloodwork within the next 2 weeks.

Everything must be tested at first. If my experiment fails, then I won't repeat it again. But obviously, Nolvadex had no use in this situation. I would lose all my gains, just like after my previous 2-month's cycle with Winstrol . It seems that 6 weeks is a limit, above which I can't go, if I want to keep some gains - unless I use HCG for PCT...

**Steroidman99** · 03-15-2010, 10:14 AM

I just got my blood tests.

5th February (after an 8-week Anavar cycle):
HDL: 0.51 mmol/l 1-2.1 *(---)
LDL: 5.48 mmol/l 1.2-3 (---)*
LDL:HDL 10.75:1
Testosterone total: 11.25 ng/dl 285-800 *(---)
ALT: 0.76 ukat/l 0.05-0.85 (-*-)
AST: 0.75 ukat/l 0.05-0.89 (-*-)

15th March (after 5 1/2 weeks, and after 4 1/2 weeks of taking S-4, 15-30 mg/day):
HDL: 0.68 mmol/l
LDL: 3.11 mmol/l
LDL:HDL 4.57:1
Testosterone total: 132.12 ng/dl
ALT: 0.46 ukat/l
AST: 0.75 ukat/l

The cholesterol values improve quite rapidly, I am actually below the "lower risk ratio" 5:1 already, and I am heading towards the "desirable optimal ratio" 3,5:1. I don't know, what are my normal values, however.

The AST values still don't return to my normal level, but they are within the normal range.

My testosterone is nevertheless still very low, although nearly 12-times higher than last time. This is disappointing, because I already felt fine this weekend. On Sunday, I had a heavy training and maybe the test subsequently decreased a bit. In any case, I seriously consider using HCG , because this pace is too slow. On the other hand, it is known that the initial improvement of testosterone levels after a long cycle is slow.

**bass** · 03-24-2010, 04:41 PM

okay, i did blood test today for total free test, i didn't want to spend the money to do more, besides test is what i am concerned about. i'll post the result as soon as i get them. wish me luck!

**adam15425** · 03-24-2010, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by bass

okay, i did blood test today for total free test, i didn't want to spend the money to do more, besides test is what i am concerned about. i'll post the result as soon as i get them. wish me luck!

Good luck Bass! I bet you'll be just fine

**Steroidman99** · 03-25-2010, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by bass

okay, i did blood test today for total free test, i didn't want to spend the money to do more, besides test is what i am concerned about. i'll post the result as soon as i get them. wish me luck!

Wait... If I remember well, you did a S-4 cycle at high doses, then you did PCT, after finishing PCT your bloodwork showed high testosterone levels. After several weeks you did a blood work again - and testosterone was suppressed roughly by 50%?

This would make sense - S-4 suppressed testosterone (at 100 mg/day, it should be around 50%), you used Nolvadex that artifically elevated your test levels (it can increase testosterone by 150%!), you stopped using Nolvadex and after several weeks your endogenous test levels fell down again, because they still weren't fully recovered... Am I right?

**bass** · 03-25-2010, 02:38 PM

yes thats correct...

**bass** · 03-26-2010, 03:39 PM

i am speechless, and happy as a clam! thanks to all the members who guided me to do proper PCT. here is my latest blood test results. thanks again...

**adam15425** · 03-26-2010, 07:18 PM

That's what I'm talking about! Glad to hear bass

**bass** · 03-26-2010, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by adam15425

That's what I'm talking about! Glad to hear bass

thanks bro...

**Steroidman99** · 03-27-2010, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by endus

So can we now call you small-****

I agree about the S4 and PCT. It just piss me off to no end. I wanted to do a cycle in March and now i have to wait - for PCT and rest period. So now it will be May at the earliest. The whole reason why I've decided to take S4 is because it was touted as non suppressive compound - both vendors and users.

And those users that said it didn't suppress - none of of them did any blood work. Again, bro-science wins

This is not a myth. You used excessive doses. When you consieder that 100 mg/day suppresses testosterone by mere 50%, it is very mild when compared with steroids .

By the way, considering that Nolva can increase testosterone levels by 150%, I think that your endogenous test will again drop soon. The current values can't tell you, how your hormonal system is recovered.

**bass** · 03-27-2010, 11:00 AM

i am planning to do another test within a month or two...

**bass** · 04-29-2010, 11:17 PM

Monday I’ll be doing another blood work for free and total testosterone, I’ll post the results here. I’ve been feeling really good physically, and I believe my test levels will be good.

**bass** · 05-15-2010, 04:41 PM

my latest blood work results!

**Steroidman99** · 05-15-2010, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by bass

my latest blood work results!

And what preceded this bloodwork? I am sorry, I won't read all your posts. You haven't taken anything since March - perhaps except Nolvadex ?

I should also post my bloodwork, I think.

5th February (after an 8-week Anavar cycle):
HDL: 0.51 mmol/l 1-2.1 *(---)
LDL: 5.48 mmol/l 1.2-3 (---)*
LDL:HDL 10.75:1
Testosterone total: 11.25 ng/dl 285-800 *(---)
ALT: 0.76 ukat/l 0.05-0.85 (-*-)
AST: 0.75 ukat/l 0.05-0.89 (-*-)

15th March (after 5 1/2 weeks, and after 4 1/2 weeks of taking S-4, 15-30 mg/day):
HDL: 0.68 mmol/l
LDL: 3.11 mmol/l
LDL:HDL 4.57:1
Testosterone total: 132.12 ng/dl
ALT: 0.46 ukat/l
AST: 0.75 ukat/l

5th May 2010:
HDL 0.88 mmol/l x38.67=34.02 mg/dl
LDL 2.61 mmol/l x38.67=100.93 mg/dl
LDL:HDL 2.97:1
Testosterone total: 424,57 ng/dl
AST 0.75 ukat/l

The results from 5th May were measured 2 weeks after the end of my S-4 minicycle (45-50 mg/day for 3 weeks). In the end of March I namely lost patience, because my dosage of S-4 was apparently too low and I was slowly losing gains. Therefore, I decided to get them back and I raised my S-4 doses. At 50 mg/day, it finally started to work - and my feelings were fantastic. My strength endurance and recovery speed reached virtually Stakhanovite dimensions.

Unfortunately, I hadn't any opportunity to measure my testosterone levels immediately after finishing S-4. But considering that I still expected too low testosterone levels, I started to take anastrozole, 1 mg/day. However, after 2 weeks my testosterone is already in the "safe range" and I don't lose any strength. It seems that S-4 didn't interfere with the recovery of my testosterone and anastrozole works fine, although it is not an especially strong drug for PCT (It can elevate testosterone levels by ca. 60%.)

The cholesterol ratio is surprisingly good (LDL:HDL 2.97:1), although my HDL is otherwise quite low.