MK-677 (Ibutamoren) w/MK-2866 (Ostarine) log

[yosimitesam]

Hi guys,

This is my first thread (not first post) and wanted to share my findings as I cycle MK-677 and MK-2866 together for a 6- 8-wk regimen. I started this past Thursday and plan on giving you guys weekly updates as to how they are working for me. My dosage is 25mg per day with both chemicals. Ostarine is taken in the morning and Ibutamoren is taken after my workouts at night or before bed on my off days.

My main reasoning for trying this combo is tissue and joint repair. Sure, if I get a "pump" then fine. However, I've been hoping to see how people have reacted in relation to their injury recovery, workout recovery, etc. which I haven't found much on.

Keeping that in mind, I won't be posting pictures of my progress, unless you want to see a photo of my SI joint, shoulder or elbow. I'm a powerlifter, and I eat. I want to get strong, and staying injury free (or at least as much as possible) helps me achieve that more than anything else. So anyway, yadda yadda yadda....

Okay, since I started just a couple of days ago, there's not a ton to report. One of the reasons I prefer to give weekly updates is to avoid as much of the placebo effect as possible. That way I won't attribute every bonor or happy day at work to the new and expensive sh%t I'm taking. "I got up, ate some corn flakes....looked at T.V. wondered what shoes to wear, and hey, I feel great!" It's kind of like when you're a kid and get a Playboy. You could care less about the articles and just want to see the tits....So with that in mind....

I'll check back in with you guys at the end of next week to let you know how/if I notice any positive changes (or negative). My 3rd day into it, I definitely am hungrier, which is more than my usual urge to pig out. I also sleep like a rock and wake up with heavy eyes. I still have to piss 2-3 times per night since I drink water like it's going away forever, but I have no problem getting right back to sleep. My irritating soreness in my right shoulder from a slightly strained delt. does feel better, and my back, which I strained on my last week of squats before a week off, is also feeling better. Not 100%, but definitely feeling on the mend. Chemicals or just time and stretching? Stay tuned and find out.

Anyway, in the meantime, if any of you have questions, please feel free to ask. I'm going to stay religious to my 25mg/day for each chemical, so no need to recommend more or less. Oh shit, I'm also on TB-500, so I'll be adding my thoughts on that as well.

Thanks for allowing me to participate, and I look forward to hopefully contributing and helping if I can.

[Sisonpyh]

Have you tried these compounds independently of each other? With three different peptides you will not be able to isolate any positive or negative experiences you will have. How much TB are you on? What are your stats?

Personally I have only used Ostarine and noticed very little effect. I actually started a second cycle years ago and stopped very shortly after because I didnt want to put my body through a chemical with little effect (at least my experience). But with all that said, I am looking forward to hearing your results. Never heard of MK-677 and I know very very little about TB.

[yosimitesam]

Hi Sisonpyh,

Actually, only the TB-500 is a peptide, Ostarine's a SARM and MK-677 is a GH Secretagogue. I've attached a basic overview of MK-677 at the end of my post to give you a better idea of what it is and what it does.

Anyway, I've been on the TB-500 for 3 weeks, and I just started the Ostarine and Ibutamoren this past Thursday. The Thymosin beta 4 may be showing signs of helping, but nothing to shout loud about. The Ibutamoren, however, has already made a difference in both my appetite and sleep. I'm hungrier and I am all of a sudden sleeping like a rock.

Ostarine, while anabolic , hasn't proven to be a huge muscle builder, but guys that have graciously logged it for us, have seemed to conclude their gains, while not huge, are lean and very high quality with a very low propensity to lose them when they get off. No real suppression or other side effects, and it's not a bad way to go through PCT or enjoy some modest gains and a bit more intensity during workouts.

That being said, I am more interested in whether the drug can do what it was initially designed for, which is bone and tissue healing. I've read stacking Ostarine and Ibutamoren can have a synergistic effect in this capacity, so that's why I'm doing both. Again, I'm not expecting huge gains, but I'd love to see improvements in stubborn joint and muscle areas.

Since the TB-500, Ostarine and Ibutamoren are all different compounds, they won't compete with one another, and I'm hoping they all get to work. :-)

Anyway, I'll also be looking forward to seeing how this is all working out, and thanks for tuning in. Oh, and here's some info about Mk-677:

Ibutamoren (MK-677, L-163,191) is a drug which acts as a potent, orally active growth hormone secretagogue,[1][2] mimicking the GH stimulating action of the endogenous hormone ghrelin.[3][4] It has been demonstrated to increase the release of, and produces sustained increases in plasma levels of several hormones including growth hormone and IGF-1, but without affecting cortisol levels.[5] It is currently under development as a potential treatment for reduced levels of these hormones, such as in growth hormone deficient children or elderly adults,[6][7][8] and human studies have shown it to increase both muscle mass and bone mineral density,[9][10] making it a promising therapy for the treatment of frailty in the elderly.[11][12] It also alters metabolism of body fat and so may have application in the treatment of obesity.[13][14]

[ghost14]

Hello, how much tb500 have you taken by now?

[yosimitesam]

Hello, how much tb500 have you taken by now?

Hi Ghost. I'm on 5mg per week, shot every Saturday after my workout. I took my 4th shot this past Saturday. Coming up on my first week on Ostarine and Ibutamoren, and I'll post a report on Friday or Saturday as to how I think it's going.

I seem to be feeling some relief from the TB-500, and as the weeks progress, the effect seems to be more pronounced, which is how it usually is reported. Nothing mind-altering, but any kind of head start on healing and recovery is fine by me.

[Nad]

Hi, I've read alot about the MK-677 and about to try it myself.
I've already ordered it and about to get it in a few days. Anything that I have to know before I consume it? Also, do you simply swallow it along with some water? I am kinda new to Oral SARMs , not sure if I have to leave it in my mouth until it melts or drink it with water like any capsule. It's 25mg per one pill. Going to watch your log as well. Thanks a lot!

[yosimitesam]

Hi, I've read alot about the MK-677 and about to try it myself.
I've already ordered it and about to get it in a few days. Anything that I have to know before I consume it? Also, do you simply swallow it along with some water? I am kinda new to Oral SARMs, not sure if I have to leave it in my mouth until it melts or drink it with water like any capsule. It's 25mg per one pill. Going to watch your log as well. Thanks a lot!

Hi Nad, and welcome to the forum. You won't have to hold it under your tongue or in your mouth. The foul taste is well-documented, however, I put my half milliliter in my mouth and swallow, sometimes not even washing it down. It's not that bad. Of course, it's far from cherry pie.

I hope you have good luck with your cycle, and I appreciate you following my log. Again, welcome to the community.

[ghost14]

Hi Ghost. I'm on 5mg per week, shot every Saturday after my workout. I took my 4th shot this past Saturday. Coming up on my first week on Ostarine and Ibutamoren, and I'll post a report on Friday or Saturday as to how I think it's going.

I seem to be feeling some relief from the TB-500, and as the weeks progress, the effect seems to be more pronounced, which is how it usually is reported. Nothing mind-altering, but any kind of head start on healing and recovery is fine by me.

So I am on the similar stack. On Monday previous week I started Ostarine, and last Sunday tb500. I hope that Ostarine will help me with lost muscles during one year injury healing. I will follow your log and compare results The differences are doses, I take 0.75 x 25mg Ed Ostarine and 8mg tb500 per week, 5-6 times a day ghrp2/mod grf.

But why have you chosen mk-677 instead of peptides? Do you think it is more efficient or less pining?

[yosimitesam]

So I am on the similar stack. On Monday previous week I started Ostarine, and last Sunday tb500. I hope that Ostarine will help me with lost muscles during one year injury healing. I will follow your log and compare results The differences are doses, I take 0.75 x 25mg Ed Ostarine and 8mg tb500 per week, 5-6 times a day ghrp2/mod grf.

But why have you chosen mk-677 instead of peptides? Do you think it is more efficient or less pining?

I like your dosing idea for the TB-500. I've read the actual human weekly dose is closer to 7mg per week and not 2mg.

The mk-677 has quite a few favorable studies done under controlled supervision. That, and the fact it's easy as sin to dose and take was a no-brainer for me. I'm sure the peptides work fine, and honestly, sticking myself has never been a huge concern of mine, but being a bit OCD, I can take a long time even to do a puny insulin needle poke.

Good luck with your Ostarine. Have you noticed anything yet? I know I've promised to do a weekly update, but I have noticed more energy in the gym, and the body aches after working out seem to dissipate much quicker. Placebo? Maybe, but the optimistic signs surely don't suck.

[Nad]

I read a little bit more about another research that on MK-677 and it says:

Fasting blood glucose level increased an average of 0.3 mmol/L (5 mg/dL) in the MK-677 group (P = 0.015), and insulin sensitivity decreased. The most frequent side effects were an increase in appetite that subsided in a few months and transient, mild lower-extremity edema and muscle pain.

And now I am a bit scared. I am afriad of having diabetes If I use that. Am I wrong? Because my conclusion is that there is a chance for increasing the risk of getting diabetes, due to the insulin sensitivity effect fasting blood glucose level change.
Is this a pernament change?

However, the conclusion is:

CONCLUSION:
Over 12 months, the ghrelin mimetic MK-677 enhanced pulsatile growth hormone secretion, significantly increased fat-free mass, and was generally well tolerated. Long-term functional and, ultimately, pharmacoeconomic, studies in elderly persons are indicated.

I can't post the link to the full article due to my post count.
(Google "Effects of an oral ghrelin mimetic on body composition and clinical outcomes in healthy older adults: a randomized trial.")
I thought I'd just let you know.

What are you guys saying?

[yosimitesam]

I read a little bit more about another research that on MK-677 and it says:


And now I am a bit scared. I am afriad of having diabetes If I use that. Am I wrong? Because my conclusion is that there is a chance for increasing the risk of getting diabetes, due to the insulin sensitivity effect fasting blood glucose level change.
Is this a pernament change?

However, the conclusion is:

I can't post the link to the full article due to my post count.
(Google "Effects of an oral ghrelin mimetic on body composition and clinical outcomes in healthy older adults: a randomized trial.")
I thought I'd just let you know.

What are you guys saying?

I think you answered your own question. The study involved people using MK-677 for a year and they did not develop diabetes. That being said, the human body does have its limitations, therefore I would recommend sticking with the dosing protocol as listed by many people who have already used the chemical, along with giving yourself breaks from it every couple of months.

[Nad]

Also, some people claim that this chemical doesn't affect the Cortisol levels, however in the study I just gave the Cortisol levels raised a bit. I am also scared a bit of HGH desensitization (When you're less sensitive to HGH). How can you explain that in another study, IGF-1 level increased in 60%, and after 12 weeks (double time) it only increased in 10% more.

Here's another study:

The stimulatory effect of MK-677 on mean GH concentrations in the 8 h after drug administration declined between the first and fourth day of drug administration, although the fourth day value was still significantly greater than baseline. This decline may indicate desensitization to the GH stimulatory effects of the drug and foreshadow an eventual loss of stimulatory effect. Alternately, and probably more likely, it may result from negative feedback effects of IGF-I on GH secretion. There is evidence that IGF-I acts at pituitary and/or hypothalamic sites to suppress GH secretion (36, 37, 38, 39). The negative feedback effects of IGF-I would be expected to increase as circulating IGF-I concentrations increase in the days to weeks after starting MK-677 treatment. This would eventually result in a new set point at which IGF-I and GH concentrations are higher than at baseline, but GH concentrations are lower than immediately after initiation of treatment. Such changes have been reported in beagle dogs treated with oral MK-677 for 2 weeks (40).

[ghost14]

Hh

I like your dosing idea for the TB-500. I've read the actual human weekly dose is closer to 7mg per week and not 2mg.

The mk-677 has quite a few favorable studies done under controlled supervision. That, and the fact it's easy as sin to dose and take was a no-brainer for me. I'm sure the peptides work fine, and honestly, sticking myself has never been a huge concern of mine, but being a bit OCD, I can take a long time even to do a puny insulin needle poke.

Good luck with your Ostarine. Have you noticed anything yet? I know I've promised to do a weekly update, but I have noticed more energy in the gym, and the body aches after working out seem to dissipate much quicker. Placebo? Maybe, but the optimistic signs surely don't suck.

For horses the recommended dose is 10mgs per week, or 10mgs twice a week, for greyhounds similar, 5mgs a week or 5mgs twice a week in more advanced cases. And this is for pharm grade tb500, 60mgs worth $2400. I believe all those research products are somehow under dosed. So as humans are somewhere between greyhounds and horses, realistic dose of 'research product' for a human would be 10-20 mgs a week. I wanted to go with 10-12 mgs a week, I could not afford more, but both reliable Uk sources run out of this for a couple of weeks, and I do not want to buy across the ocean, paying high shipping and customs/tax. So I gathered only 48mgs and will run what I have.

I haven't noticed anything on Ostarine. Weight, body measurements did not change. I have impression that the muscles are harder and more visible, specially in the abs, but it may be due to peptides. And when at the beginning of may I switched from ipamorelin/mod grf 3 times a day to ghrp2/mod grf 5-6 times a day, all at saturation dose, my abdominal fat started melting away. In 2.5 months I lost 5 pounds on a clean diet but without cutting and 2 in in the waist. Also my long time biceps/knees/heel tendinosis subsided, I sleep really good and have general feeling of well being. Anyway, the general opinion is that the Ostarine would kick in after 3-4 weeks, will see.


Did you check your serum hgh level after administration of the mk-677? That would be interesting.

[yosimitesam]

Also, some people claim that this chemical doesn't affect the Cortisol levels, however in the study I just gave the Cortisol levels raised a bit. I am also scared a bit of HGH desensitization (When you're less sensitive to HGH). How can you explain that in another study, IGF-1 level increased in 60%, and after 12 weeks (double time) it only increased in 10% more.

Here's another study:

That study was from 1997, and studied subjects who were severely GH deficient. Meaning, somewhere, somehow, their body wasn't communicating properly to provide consistent and normal GH release. Therefore, it's not surprising their bodies were still having trouble responding considering the drug given them is designed to stimulate the pituitary's natural release mechanism. It's like filling an empty tank full of gas, except the tank has a hole in it, and then wondering why there's not as much gas in the tank after 3 days. In addition, the study went on to conclude baselines of GH on all subjects administered MK-677 were up.

The report went on to illustrate the chemical was well tolerated with side effects in only some of the subjects, and were considered mild. Nowhere did it say subjects were stricken with symptoms related to high cortisol levels, nor have I found any other studies that indicate this drug exacerbates this like some peptides are know to do.

I would still think if you stay on anything long enough and take a dose big enough, you'll have adverse effects. But I've followed logs of healthy individuals that have reported only good things from it, which is why I decided to give it a try.

If you are still having doubts, then there's absolutely no reason you should feel compelled to use it. I'm not expecting to turn into the Hulk; I just hope it helps speed the healing process in my trouble maker joints.

Anyway, it's good you are doing your research, and I encourage you to keep reading. You should also draw your own conclusion about whether to try this or not.

[yosimitesam]

Hh

For horses the recommended dose is 10mgs per week, or 10mgs twice a week, for greyhounds similar, 5mgs a week or 5mgs twice a week in more advanced cases. And this is for pharm grade tb500, 60mgs worth $2400. I believe all those research products are somehow under dosed. So as humans are somewhere between greyhounds and horses, realistic dose of 'research product' for a human would be 10-20 mgs a week. I wanted to go with 10-12 mgs a week, I could not afford more, but both reliable Uk sources run out of this for a couple of weeks, and I do not want to buy across the ocean, paying high shipping and customs/tax. So I gathered only 48mgs and will run what I have.

I haven't noticed anything on Ostarine. Weight, body measurements did not change. I have impression that the muscles are harder and more visible, specially in the abs, but it may be due to peptides. And when at the beginning of may I switched from ipamorelin/mod grf 3 times a day to ghrp2/mod grf 5-6 times a day, all at saturation dose, my abdominal fat started melting away. In 2.5 months I lost 5 pounds on a clean diet but without cutting and 2 in in the waist. Also my long time biceps/knees/heel tendinosis subsided, I sleep really good and have general feeling of well being. Anyway, the general opinion is that the Ostarine would kick in after 3-4 weeks, will see.


Did you check your serum hgh level after administration of the mk-677? That would be interesting.

There's an actual formula for calculating a more accurate dose per your body weight, which ends up coming out anywhere between 7+ per week. I've also read where guys will load up on it rapidly, giving themselves big doses three days in a row. Haven't done that, and don't plan to, but I'd be interested to see if that's an option.

I think the pharma grade is expensive, because those companies can make it that way. I'm sure there's quite a bit of profit going through the "official vet channels". As long as you stick with a reputable peptide company, I'm sure the dosing is fine. Many of the sites will post their lab analysis of each product (although I'm not stupid enough to believe they'd never try to mislead any of us).

Didn't have anything checked. I was so achy, I just wanted to get busy and see if my body responded by getting rid of nagging pain. And actually, I'm finally beginning to feel some relief in quicker recovery time. Still not sure if it's placebo or my body simply being a good sport on its own, but I'd like to believe there's a positive contribution going on in terms of keeping the pain minimal.

[Nad]

On the other hand, I've just found another study:

..Twenty-four obese males, aged 18-50 yr, with body mass indexes greater than 30 kg/m2 and waist/hip ratios greater than 0.95, were treated with MK-677 25 mg (n = 12) or placebo (n = 12) daily for 8 weeks.

..Fat-free mass increased significantly in the MK-677 treatment group when determined with dual energy x-ray absorptiometry (P < 0.01) or using a four-compartment model (P < 0.05). Total and visceral fat were not significantly changed with active therapy. The basal metabolic rate was significantly increased at 2 weeks of MK-677 treatment (P = 0.01) but not at 8 weeks (P = 0.1). Fasting concentrations of glucose and insulin were unchanged, whereas an oral glucose tolerance test showed impairment of glucose homeostasis at 2 and 8 weeks. We conclude that 2-month treatment with MK-677 in healthy obese males caused a sustained increase in serum levels of GH, IGF-I, and IGF-binding protein-3. The effects on cortisol secretion were transient. Changes in body composition and energy expenditure were of an anabolic nature, with a sustained increase in fat-free mass and a transient increase in basal metabolic rate

Based on studies and logs I read over the net, this is one of the safest GH secretagogues.
And as for your goal:

..Markers of bone resorption were induced within 2 weeks of treatment with MK-677; serum levels of the carboxy-terminal cross-linked telopeptide of type I collagen were increased 26% at 8 weeks (p = 0.001 vs. placebo), and urine hydroxyproline/creatinine and calcium/creatinine ratios at 8 weeks were increased by 23% (p < 0.05 vs. placebo) and 46% (p < 0.05 vs placebo)

..In conclusion, short-term treatment of healthy obese male volunteers with the GH secretagogue MK-677 increases markers of both bone resorption and formation.

Treatment with MK-677 (all MK-677 groups combined) for 9 weeks increased mean serum osteocalcin by 29.4% and BSAP by 10.4% (p < 0.001 vs. placebo) and mean urinary NTX excretion by 22.6% (p < 0.05 vs. placebo). The change from baseline serum osteocalcin correlated with the change from baseline serum IGF-I in the MK-677 group (r = 0.37; p < 0.01). In conclusion, once daily dosing with MK-677, an orally active GH secretagogue, stimulates bone turnover in elderly subjects based on elevations in biochemical markers of bone resorption and formation.

I think it should help. Also, I am thinking of telling my friend about this chemical. He was looking for something that will help him grow in height (He's 19, and he's pretty short guy) he has x-ray of his hand that shows that his growth plates are still active... though he said that the doctor says they will close soon. Based on the studies above, I think it should help him.

[yosimitesam]

That's the tricky part, Nad. You have to consider when the studies were performed, and what condition the group being investigated was in. Elderly, obese, hormonally deficient, etc. won't exactly correlate to how the substance will work for a healthy individual, so we must rely on personal logs done by people similar to us before we can determine whether or not we should investigate this for ourselves.

What I mainly look for in a study is if the product actually does what it is intended or marketed to do, and whether there are side effects and what the extent of those might be if they indeed exist.

Then, I also rely heavily on personal logs by people with similar goals as me, and how it personally affects them over a period of time. This is always much better than deciphering through statistical analysis and trying to interpret the benefits and differences I may experience over the sick, fat, old person the study was intended for.

[Nad]

Originally, this compound was developed by drug giant Merck in order to boost growth hormone levels in Alzheimer's patients so it slows the disease. Merck funded the study, and since they found out that it doesn't affect old Alzheimer's patients (but boosts IGF-1) they stopped the work on it.

The researchers found that MK-677 was well-tolerated and produced a desirable 60 percent-plus increase in the pituitary gland's production of insulin -like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) within just six weeks. This boost increased to nearly 73 percent by the end of one year.
Prior work with mice has suggested that a rise in IGF-1 might trigger a drop in levels of beta-amyloid brain plaque, long associated with Alzheimer's disease. So the hope was that plaques -- and associated symptoms -- might decline in Alzheimer's patients as IGF-1 levels rose.
However, after rating patient mental health according to a standard "clinical dementia" scale the authors found that the MK-677-mediated boost in IGF-1 did not translate into any slowdown in Alzheimer's disease progression.
Although the study has offered meaningful opportunities to learn a "tremendous amount about the possible causes of Alzheimer's disease", Sevigny said his team at Merck will now be "moving on to other options" for therapeutic research.

I wish you best of luck with your cycle, I've already subscribed to this thread, so any general information about what you experience so far would be great.

[yosimitesam]

No problem, Nad. And if you end up deciding to give it a try, I hope you'll let me know how you're doing on it.

[Nad]

No problem, Nad. And if you end up deciding to give it a try, I hope you'll let me know how you're doing on it.

How's it going?

[yosimitesam]

Hey Nad. So your ears must have been burning. :-) As promised, here are my thoughts after my first week:

Energy being up in the gym is consistent with my personal findings thus far. Strength is also up a bit. What's strange is up to my workout I feel tired, but once I get going, I feel pretty good, so there are no complaints there.

I have been noticing a mild headache a couple hours after I take the Ostarine in the morning. Not every day, but this seems to go away after a couple weeks according to some other guys who have logged this chemical.

Another side effect is a couple of hours after I take my Ostarine, my urethra will slightly burn after I pee. It doesn't really hurt, and goes away by the later afternoon. All clear through the night, and the MK-677 doesn't seem to have this effect.

In addition to the increased strength and energy in the gym, another positive sign is my recovery does seem to be quicker. Typically, the day after deadlifts, I pretty much feel like death, and the soreness will stay all the way til leg day, and vise versa. Since I started my cycle, while the day after is still pretty rough, on day two, my body and joints in particular feel much, much better, and is atypical of what I normally go through in my recovery process. So, there is promise the chemicals will achieve what I was hoping, which is quicker recovery and protecting my joints and connective tissue. I'll be monitoring this to make sure it's not placebo, but this all started happening after I began my cycle. I still have a nagging left hip issue from wide stance squatting, but I've had so much crap on my body that needs attention, I can live with it for now; especially since my elbows and shoulders are feeling much better.

I'm definitely sleeping much deeper, and while I wake up still tired and feel I could sleep for another day, I'm refreshed....if that makes any sense. Skin also seems cleaner and there's more color than usual.

Now, how much of this could be the TB-500? Not sure. I'm sure that's helping too, but I didn't really notice any rapid workout recovery until I began taking the Ostarine and MK-677.

Okay, that's it for this week. I'll be back next Saturday with my thoughts. Thanks for tuning in!

[yosimitesam]

Hello everyone!

Wanted to check in and touch base after my 2nd full week on the chemicals, so here it goes:

Strength continues to go up, and size is also up. Quite a bit of water retention, as my wedding band has to come off with soapy water on some days, which has never happened before. Had some headaches during week one, but those seem to have subsided for the most part.

I'm still sleeping deeply, except for the wake-up-pee-break call my bladder unabashedly sends me. However, unlike before, I have no problem going right back to sleep.

Not really sure on my skin "rejuvenation" but my hair does seem to be growing faster. At least it appears I have a thicker head of hair.

I still get a slight warming sensation during urination from a couple hours after I take my Ostarine to the late afternoon. Ibutamoren doesn't seem to bother my 'lil guy at all.

Energy in the gym is very good, and my workouts remain focused and intense.

Recovery is a weird animal. Again, I have days after a workout where I feel like death becomes me. Even on days I do workout, the hours leading up to them can leave me feeling achy and tired. Then, I hit the gym, and all of a sudden, I'm able to workout with no major issues. (exception, my hips are sucking during squats).

Low back still feeling stiff, and as I mentioned, my hips take a beating during squats. I invested in some new briefs (that actually fit), so hopefully being able to get them past my thighs and securing the seam up tight against the hip joint will alleviate most of that. We'll see.

Still doing 5mg of TB-500, and I'm still on the fence with that. Not sure if I'm noticing much, but am sticking with the protocol of 6 weeks weekly dose and then one dose per month. I thought about upping the dose, but it's still early, so I'll be patient.

That's about it for this week, and I'll see you in 7.

[yosimitesam]

Weekly update:

Nothing really new to report. I'm noticing a bit more size and definition; especially in my arms and shoulders, which is never a bad thing. Still get aches and pains in the most problematic areas (hips, low back), but they seem to calm down faster after workouts than before. It's really hard to tell just how effective the TB-500 is on my joints, since I've purchased some new briefs for better hip support, bought a safety squat bar to eliminate the pressure on my elbows and biceps. Although, since I'm still not quite through the loading phase, I'll keep at it and as always, I'll be sure and report it to you if I notice any consistent and noticeable change for the better in my joints.

The MK-677, as others have reported, is causing water retention. My wedding band, which usually goes on and off without any problems now takes soapy water to get it off. Ironically, I don't have the moon face I usually have when retaining water, so that's weird. Also my blood pressure is hovering around normal, so it is what it is.

The sight burning in the hours after taking Ostarine has also gone away, as have the headaches I initially got when I started everything.

Strength seems to have plateaued a bit, but not completely. Just nothing out of the ordinary from lifting hard. But hey, gains are gains, so......

New side effects? I've noticed some slight pressure in my left leg and right arm, almost as if they're on the cusp of going to sleep. Pressure, but not painful. I've been told higher GH levels can trigger this, so if anything, that means the MK-677 is doing what it's advertised to do, which is increase GH levels.

Sorry about not having anything terribly new and exciting, but as I promised, I'll contribute my weekly updates until I've completed my cycle. The exception is I'll start doing a maintenance dose of TB-500 monthly, which means I'll be staying on that for a while.

*Update: After posting, I started my Sunday workout hitting my deadlifts. Felt fine, and stronger, but the biggest thing is the briefs I was using to protect my hips, that had been very hard to get on and off, actually went on quite easily. Same with getting them right off. I also noticed my gut has slimmed down quite a bit, as my Spuds deadlift belt is no longer ultra-tight on me, and it becoming nearly unusable due to it not being tight enough. So, I suppose this stuff is burning fat while helping to build muscle, along with helping my joints out.

As I said, no miracle substances, but there's definitely some synergy happening beyond just my diet and exercise.

Until next time:

[yosimitesam]

Weekly Update as of 8/19/2013:

Hi Guys,

I wish I could tell you all how amazing this stuff is, but like the rest of you experimenting with a SARM(s) and TB-500, I'm just not there. At 4 weeks, you either know something's going on or you don't. However, in this case, I remain cautiously optimistic. What does that mean? Well, I'll try and explain.

Some argue SARMs aren't necessarily dose dependent, while some do. I'm leaning towards the latter, as it's clear, for me, sticking with 25mg per day of Ostarine and 25mg/day of Ibutamoren is doing something, but is far from setting the world on fire. Keep in mind, my taking this is mostly for recovery, and while soreness can dissipate more quickly, that's not always the case. In addition, some workouts remain painful to do, while others are great. Kind of like when you're not on anything.

On the other hand, upping my dosage on both the MK-2866 and MK-677 shows some promise. It definitely promises to be more expensive, but adding about 10 more milligrams per dose on each is giving me a bigger overall pump, and is doing better at helping my joints. No big surprise, but since I'm not a small guy (265) it makes sense I would benefit from a bit more. That seems to support larger doses are indeed needed per weight. The Ibutamoren also causes more symptoms of being in my system, such as tingling in lower extremities and deeper sleep. I'll remain at a higher dose for the remainder of my cycle.

Now, on to the TB-500. This is where my maintenance phase begins. Throughout the month I was doing weekly and sometimes bi-weekly injections, I've noticed very little in terms of effectiveness. As I understood going in, this takes a while to build in your system, and there are many debates as to how much humans should take in order for this to be effective. The verdict is still out, but while I'm not jumping around in utter pain-free bliss, some of my most problematic joint areas (wrists) seem to feel better faster than usual. On the other hand, a strained triceps and two nagging shoulders haven't been so cooperative. Again, the verdict is still out.

What can I make of all this thus far? Well, I'm definitely leaning up, while retaining water in my fingers (sounds contradictory, I know), and my lower back is handling deadlifts better than before, as are my hips when squatting, which suggests some tissue repair is indeed going on. I'm not super huge, but my physique is showing signs of growth in my smaller muscle groups (biceps, shoulders, calves and triceps). Strength is increasing, albeit ever so slightly. Not sure how much is from the chems, and how much is just me pushing myself hard like I always do. I am getting more oily skin, with the potential for cystic acne (the painful internal zits), which I try and control as soon as I feel them coming on.

Thus far, no miracle drug or cure, but not a placebo, either. Of course, each week leads me closer to my verdict of whether I feel it's worth the expense in the future.

Til next time,

[ghost14]

So you haven't seen much from tb500? I have just started 5th week on this and no wonders. Igf1 lr3 injected locally gave me much much more, for knees and plantar fasciitis. Biceps also, but injecting there was a little risky, lots of nerves. On tb500 - nothing. But some awful second degree burns from a week ago healed really quickly and nicely, I had similar two months ago and they healed longer and worse, some scar is left. So somehow it works, but maybe tendinosis is not about actual wound healing. It may be good for post op wound, actual strains, but not chronic issues, which maybe more about degradation not inability to heal. Just my 5 cents.

[yosimitesam]

So you haven't seen much from tb500? I have just started 5th week on this and no wonders. Igf1 lr3 injected locally gave me much much more, for knees and plantar fasciitis. Biceps also, but injecting there was a little risky, lots of nerves. On tb500 - nothing. But some awful second degree burns from a week ago healed really quickly and nicely, I had similar two months ago and they healed longer and worse, some scar is left. So somehow it works, but maybe tendinosis is not about actual wound healing. It may be good for post op wound, actual strains, but not chronic issues, which maybe more about degradation not inability to heal. Just my 5 cents.

Yeah, you make a good point. It seems to have subtle hints of doing something positive, just nothing awe inspiring. Not surprising, and with the other chemicals I'm on, it's hard to pin-point what, if anything, is doing all the work, or if it's a synergistic effect. Either way, alone or altogether, I'm getting some relief, but a little less than I hoped for.

Still, I'm willing to stick it out for the duration of my 8-week experiment, and will continue on a monthly dose of TB-500 in the hopes it actually is doing something.

[Nad]

Hi again.
I just want to support your stance; Everything you said on the dose thing seems to be true.
I've been using 12mg ED of MK-677 for about three weeks. There is a slight improvement in energy, sleep, and even the skin.
But it is far from what I expect. I am a little bit more than half of your current weight, and as soon as I up the dose to 25mg ED I begin to see some noticeable changes. Dose-weight ratio seems to play a big role here.

[yosimitesam]

Hey Nad. Good to hear from you.

Yeah, I completely agree with you regarding it's dose dependance to its effectiveness. Like I said earlier, some will dispute this, but my personal experience is proving this compound (at least with me) works best when adjusted to your body weight.

I'm sure there are diminishing returns at some point, where you're simply taking more than your body will use, but my belief is there's definitely a sweet spot for both the MK-677 and Ostarine. Same could also be argued about the TB-500.

[Nad]

I'd just like to let you know that now the MK-677 started working. After taking 12mg ED for 3 weeks with no significant effects, I took 25mg for 2 days, and the expected effect started showing up a little bit. Yesterday I didn't consume it, but today I took 12mg and 1 hour later I started feeling really hungry, at the first time. I ate plenty of food without even noticing. Still feeling the hunger.

You'll probably start feeling the same by the next day; Waiting for your next update.

[yosimitesam]

Hi Nad. I'm glad the stuff is working for you. I've upped my dose of both the MK-677 and MK-2866 to 35mg/day, and it seems to be the sweet spot for me.

There's still nothing to report that's really ground breaking, other than the days after intense exercise I'm still miserable, but once I hit the gym, my body responds quickly without the usual reluctance for my joints and muscles to comply, which suggests this stuff is pretty good for recovery.

I've also noticed my skin is much smoother and appears to have more moisture to it. Still retaining a bit of water in my fingers, but other than having a stubborn ring that doesn't like to get removed after being on my finger all day, the rest of me feels pretty good.

I'm into my maintenance phase of the TB-500, so I did not inject on Saturday, and won't for another 3 weeks.

Nothing terribly new and exciting to report, but I definitely think this is helping with recovery. Strength is slightly up, too, as is my overall physique, but again, that could be placebo and due to the fact I am 4 months back after starting over from a long hiatus due to hernia surgery, and I should be growing anyway as my body continues to recover and strengthen from being dormant.

Til next week, and thanks for keeping me posted, too.

[Nad]

I have to take my words back - after consuming it the next day again with 12mg ED, the effects seem to decline again. I probably started feeling the MK-677s in action because I took 25mg in the day before, and just two days after returning to the previous dose it seems to have no effect/small effect again. I've got myself another pack of it and decided to up the dose to 25mg as it seems to be a good spot. Took it today and felt the hunger again. IMO that sweet spot seems to be around the 0.5mg x LBM. Don't want to spam your log, (I can't PM you) but I'd like to share another thing;

It appears that the MK-677 causes GH bleed.
Basically, it means that due to it's 24-hours half life, it keeps your GH levels (as well as the IGF-1) elevated during these 24 hours. GH and IGF-1 are normally produced by the body in pulses, it goes up and down sometimes and that's how it should be, as well as bigger pulses when you sleep. While on MK-677 you do get these big sleep pulses, you also keep your IGF-1 levels elevated constantly (It's better for you to have the regular GH pulsation, but get bigger pulses rather than a long elevated one) IGF-1, as you may know has it's good sides (faster recovery, muscle building, protein synthesis, bone/tissue repair and growth) it is also suspected to increase the risk of cancer and more things that we probably don't know. Even though there was a long-term study on the MK-677 and they didn't report on anything about cancer (who knows), I'd still use it for a short period of time, especially if you have cancer history in family. Still, can't be completely sure about that, some people says it's a myth but it does make sense. Also the normal GH system in males is the pulsation ones, while in women it is always in the bleed form. Mother nature is nobody's fool. Since (apparently) no one died from it, I'd cycle it for a short period of time. Thought I'd let you know.
However, I highly recommend you to google "datbtrue" (choose the first result) as you will find a lot of useful information on everything that is related to your goals and the things you use in order to reach them. Since you got no problems with injecting, there are WAY cheaper, safer and overall better alternatives for you. Can't go into details (I am pretty sure they don't want me to copy-paste their content), but you won't regret it.

-Nad

[yosimitesam]

Nad,

You're not spamming up my log. Besides myself, you're the only other guy participating on it. You're also welcome to PM me anytime.

I've found my "sweet spot" to be no lower than 35mg/day. I was taking 50mg for a while, but boy does that get expensive.

Also, after my 2-month log ends, I'm actually going to continue taking the MK-677 for at least a couple more months, since most of the clinical trials seemed to suggest the 6-month interval was where most of the increased IGF levels were present. It also appears the health risks in doing so should be minimal, since some studies lasted 12 months.

I think you're better off taking at least 25mg, and I wouldn't concern yourself too much about the "claims". If you read reviews on Amazon, you'll see soccer moms warning about getting cancer from everything including MIO drink mix to whey protein powder. One guy on there even said ALA was toxic, even though it's an official anti-oxidant and a very good liver protector for us weightlifters.

In terms of the gh bleed, there is currently no evidence supporting the long-term use of ibutamoren and desensitization of the pituitary in releasing GH. Think of all the body builders that would be dead from cancer due to them taking exogenous GH at levels much higher than anything the MK-677 can muster your body to produce. I also haven't found any solid correlation between raised IGF levels in healthy individuals and cancer. Doesn't mean there's a potential, but I believe high IGF levels in people with cancer is the result of your body raising those levels to fight off the destruction going on in your body.

However, if I start to shrink after staying on MK-677 for a while longer, I'll be sure and let you know.

[Ohyea]

Help deciding dosage and timing for a Osta/MK-677 stack. First time using SARMS !

Ok, so I posted this on another forum and got absolutely no good help, when stumbled upon your log here. so I have a 60ml bottle of both Osta and MK-677 in hand(25Mg). My goals are to cut the last 1/2" of fat pad that is hiding my abs while building some strength and get a bit more muscle definition all the way around. I'm-
38yr old male
184# (was 195 3 months ago but cut BF from approx 25% to 18% currently with a 20a% gain in all around strength)
6'3"
All natural, never done a cycle, RC or anything.
just had BW done last month. Everything in "acceptable " levels.
Total test 345 ( couldn't get full test BW from insurance)
diet is spot on. Lots of chicken, tuna, salmon,shrimp, grass fed lean beef, carbs only after lift days after 1hr from slamming Dark Matter post workout, almonds, pound of kale , broc, Swiss chard, spinach ED. One whey protein shake per day, one 8hr release shake before bed. Very little alcohol intake, no beer, glass of red wine with the ladies couple times a week.
Supplements-
1500g green tea extract ED
300g caffeine ED
9000mg fish oil ED
animal pack multi ED
T bomb 2 3 morn , 3 night nat test boost cocktail
3g L-Argine ED
2g d-asparic acid ED
5g taurine ED
2g magnesium ED
C4 pre workout, BCAA (lots ED and lots more on WO days) dark matter,


gym-
4 days wk routine 30min cardio prior to 1.5hr of fast moving free weights and machines.
gym in morning on empty stomach with c4 for motivation and green tea/caffeine pills I capsule myself.


Ok, so here is the question. How do I best utilize the Sarms I have on hand? I was thinking 25mg of Osta upon waking up for 8 weeks and 25mg of MK-677 at bed time for 8 weeks? Does this sound right for my weight? I would say my biggest issue is lack of rest, but the MK-677 is suppose to help you out with that I hear so that would be a good side effect.
Thanks for any help.

[yosimitesam]

Help deciding dosage and timing for a Osta/MK-677 stack. First time using SARMS !

Ok, so I posted this on another forum and got absolutely no good help, when stumbled upon your log here. so I have a 60ml bottle of both Osta and MK-677 in hand(25Mg). My goals are to cut the last 1/2" of fat pad that is hiding my abs while building some strength and get a bit more muscle definition all the way around. I'm-
38yr old male
184# (was 195 3 months ago but cut BF from approx 25% to 18% currently with a 20a% gain in all around strength)
6'3"
All natural, never done a cycle, RC or anything.
just had BW done last month. Everything in "acceptable " levels.
Total test 345 ( couldn't get full test BW from insurance)
diet is spot on. Lots of chicken, tuna, salmon,shrimp, grass fed lean beef, carbs only after lift days after 1hr from slamming Dark Matter post workout, almonds, pound of kale , broc, Swiss chard, spinach ED. One whey protein shake per day, one 8hr release shake before bed. Very little alcohol intake, no beer, glass of red wine with the ladies couple times a week.
Supplements-
1500g green tea extract ED
300g caffeine ED
9000mg fish oil ED
animal pack multi ED
T bomb 2 3 morn , 3 night nat test boost cocktail
3g L-Argine ED
2g d-asparic acid ED
5g taurine ED
2g magnesium ED
C4 pre workout, BCAA (lots ED and lots more on WO days) dark matter,


gym-
4 days wk routine 30min cardio prior to 1.5hr of fast moving free weights and machines.
gym in morning on empty stomach with c4 for motivation and green tea/caffeine pills I capsule myself.


Ok, so here is the question. How do I best utilize the Sarms I have on hand? I was thinking 25mg of Osta upon waking up for 8 weeks and 25mg of MK-677 at bed time for 8 weeks? Does this sound right for my weight? I would say my biggest issue is lack of rest, but the MK-677 is suppose to help you out with that I hear so that would be a good side effect.
Thanks for any help.

25 and 25 would be great. In fact, that's what I started out with. Since I'm a bit heavier (265), I went to 35mg on the Osta and 35mg on the MK677. I believe, however, 25mg for both will be just fine.

Good luck with your cycle.

[Ohyea]

Awesome! I have 60ml of 25mg of each from great white peptides. Run it out for the full 8 weeks ED? What to do post cycle, cold turkey? What time of day is best to down it? My schedule runs 6-7 am to midnight or so. On workout days I don't eat before gym 7-9am. Fasting workout drinking BCAA and C4 pre workout.

[yosimitesam]

Awesome! I have 60ml of 25mg of each from great white peptides. Run it out for the full 8 weeks ED? What to do post cycle, cold turkey? What time of day is best to down it? My schedule runs 6-7 am to midnight or so. On workout days I don't eat before gym 7-9am. Fasting workout drinking BCAA and C4 pre workout.

Sorry for taking so long to respond. If you're staying at that dosage, I wouldn't worry about any PCT. You can if you want to, but I used more, and I haven't noticed anything to suggest I need to get on an actual SERM. If you want to take DIM for healthy estrogen regulation, then that's good, and as a lifter, I'm always on anti-oxidants and liver protectors, since, even without "supplements", your immune system can take a beating with heavy resistance exercise.

What worked for me was taking the Osta in the morning and Ibutamoren in the evening before bed. Taking the MK-677 late, made it easier to avoid binge eating while I slept :-). Otherwise, your appetite will be on a mission to eat everything in sight. Also, avoid eating carbs directly before or after you take your MK-677. Protein is fine, but no carbs for at least a couple of hours after taking the Ibutamoren.

Hope that helps and good luck.

[Ohyea]

Ok good info, thanks. So at 3-4bucks a day for this stack, what gains have you noticed and would you say the "discipline" to administer was worthwhile? Did you run it 8weeks?

[yosimitesam]

Ok good info, thanks. So at 3-4bucks a day for this stack, what gains have you noticed and would you say the "discipline" to administer was worthwhile? Did you run it 8weeks?

I'd expect very conservative gains. You may feel more pumped, and the MK-677 will cause a bit of water retention, but I wouldn't expect anything near AAS. Of course, the trade off is not having to deal with all the maintenance issues that accompany AAS cycles, so there's that. Also, any gains made will be very slow developing, but should be more higher quality, thus allowing you an easier time at keeping what you've gained.

I'd say 8 weeks would be good for the Ostarine, but I'm wondering about the Ibutamoren. The studies done on MK-677 seem to be over a longer period of time than just 2 months. Therefore, for me, I'm staying on the 677, while I recently finished the Ostarine and play to stay off. Not even sure I'll do it again.

Taking the Ibutamoren at night, you should notice much deeper sleep, which is nice. I also feel that my recovery time shortened while on my cycle. Even more, the typical aches and pains in my joints, while there, subsided much faster than when I'm not on anything.

Many people worry about possible GH bleed by staying on the 677 too long, but I haven't found any evidence that suggests problems stemming from the long-term use of MK-677 and GH bleed. Again, the studies I have read regarding Ibutamoren and its effectiveness were conducted over a 6-month and 1-year period of time.

Aside from the expense, I think the MK-677 is worthwhile for me to continue for at least 6 months, and see if I notice any positive, and hopefully permanent changes in how my joints feel. After all, my goal was to shorten recovery time and improve the well-being of my joints, which it has done to some degree. On the flip-side, this is far from a mass-gainer, and people expecting anything beyond a slight strength increase and a mild pump will be disappointed.

[Ohyea]

Are you keeping your 677 and 2866 at room temperature?

[yosimitesam]

Are you keeping your 677 and 2866 at room temperature?

Hi,

Yes, I'm keeping them in a cabinet at room temperature. If you want to keep them in the fridge, I suppose that's okay, and if you live in a place that isn't well ventilated and can get hot, then you may consider doing that.