Best way for PM cardio

[jbran23]

Whats the best way to go about doing cardio at night on my off day from weight training? I know cardio is great after lifting and on an empty stomach in the morning but there are 2 nights a week I do cardio only.

What should I eat prior and how long should I wait after eating before heading to the gym to get the most out of the cardio? Currently drinking a protein shake about a half hour prior and then eating a meal after. Is that okay?

[Rockin Z28]

ive had excellent results from night cardio or cardio hours after a workout, just do it as you would normally, maybe plan to do it an extra 5-10 minutes so you can get your heartrate up to speed

[jbran23]

Thanks Rockin. How long after I eat my last meal before cardio should I wait though so that Im not just burning the food in my system instead of fat?

[Smallnaturalbuilder]

Thanks Rockin. How long after I eat my last meal before cardio should I wait though so that Im not just burning the food in my system instead of fat?

This is a good question. I've been doing cardio at night as of late, and was wondering about the same thing. I also eat 2 meals after my cardio before getting to bed.

Would like to read some opinions/suggestions.

[RoadToRecovery]

I just want to clear something up, cardio is not beneficial on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. Having said that, depending on your cardio - you shouldnt have to change much as far as your meal plan goes prior to cardio but I would make your overall calories slightly less on your non training days.

[FireGuy]

I just want to clear something up, cardio is not beneficial on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. Having said that, depending on your cardio - you shouldnt have to change much as far as your meal plan goes prior to cardio but I would make your overall calories slightly less on your non training days.

Why do you feel it's not beneficial?

[RoadToRecovery]

Your body is in a catabolic state upon wake up and will stay that way until you consume food. Preferably, with a simple carb.

[6ft5]

It also depends on what you want outa cardio. Some people don't do cadrdio to loose weight just to keep in shape. It really depends on what a person wants out of it. What are your goals dude? If I were trying to burn cals and fat I'd just watch the carbs after. Instead of throwing a bunch of carbs on top of cardio I'd probobly just eat green beans post cardio with kinda low carb. Its probobly gona be more about your macros to reach your goal and not sleeping full of carbs. I'd carb up on the first 3 meals of the day that way it could be used up or burnt off before you hit it.

[FireGuy]

Your body is in a catabolic state upon wake up and will stay that way until you consume food. Preferably, a simple carb.

I am going to do you a huge favor. Take that concept and put it in your "myth" folder. The same folder that has "Behind the neck presses work rear delts" "Doing cardio PWO will make me miss my anabolic window" and "Do high reps for defined muscles".

Just because you have slept for 8 hours does NOT mean you are waking up in a catabolic state. It takes quite an extreme amount of time and effort to put yourself in a ketogenic state. Simply sleeping for 8 hours does not deplete your body of glycogen. Your diet the previous day will have much more influence on this than 8 hours of sleep.

I have stated before that cardio anytime is effective and your body will still burn some fat regardless of whether you just ate an hour ago or a day ago. But, if we want it to be optimal, empty stomach AM cardio and PWO are the MOST effective times to do it. Set aside, BMR, TDEE, Macro Ratios, and meal timing for 1 minute and remember this. Getting lean is about 1 thing and 1 thing only. Manipulating your body to used stored bodyfat as an energy source.

As also previously stated, if AM cardio was catabolic I should look like a triathlete and not a bodybuilder by now. Same with MrsFireguy. She does 60 minutes of empty stomach AM cardio 7 days a week. Check the recent thread in the Members Pics thread and let me know if you think it ate away her muscle. Oh, she was also doing 60 minutes PWO as well.

I know at least 50 competitive bodybuilders on a personal level. Ranging from IFBB Pro's, National Level guys and Regional and State level ones. Every single one of them, not most of them, ALL of them do empty stomach AM cardio. From a scientific perspective that doesnt make it right but it should tell you something.

Also, if you want to get lean be prepared to lose some muscle. I am not talking about 10-12%. I am talking single digit contest lean. We can minimize this with a dialed in diet and having as much muscle as possible to start with. If you are truly worried about your body ever breaking down any muscle during a diet then enjoy staying in that 10-14% bodyfat range. If you want the ripped look that "most" people here seem to apsire to then losing a bit of muscle along the way is part of it.

[RoadToRecovery]

I am going to do you a huge favor. Take that concept and put it in your "myth" folder. The same folder that has "Behind the neck presses work rear delts" "Doing cardio PWO will make me miss my anabolic window" and "Do high reps for defined muscles".

Just because you have slept for 8 hours does NOT mean you are waking up in a catabolic state. It takes quite an extreme amount of time and effort to put yourself in a ketogenic state. Simply sleeping for 8 hours does not deplete your body of glycogen. Your diet the previous day will have much more influence on this than 8 hours of sleep.

I have stated before that cardio anytime is effective and your body will still burn some fat regardless of whether you just ate an hour ago or a day ago. But, if we want it to be optimal, empty stomach AM cardio and PWO are the MOST effective times to do it. Set aside, BMR, TDEE, Macro Ratios, and meal timing for 1 minute and remember this. Getting lean is about 1 thing and 1 thing only. Manipulating your body to used stored bodyfat as an energy source.

As also previously stated, if AM cardio was catabolic I should look like a triathlete and not a bodybuilder by now. Same with MrsFireguy. She does 60 minutes of empty stomach AM cardio 7 days a week. Check the recent thread in the Members Pics thread and let me know if you think it ate away her muscle. Oh, she was also doing 60 minutes PWO as well.

I know at least 50 competitive bodybuilders on a personal level. Ranging from IFBB Pro's, National Level guys and Regional and State level ones. Every single one of them, not most of them, ALL of them do empty stomach AM cardio. From a scientific perspective that doesnt make it right but it should tell you something.

Also, if you want to get lean be prepared to lose some muscle. I am not talking about 10-12%. I am talking single digit contest lean. We can minimize this with a dialed in diet and having as much muscle as possible to start with. If you are truly worried about your body ever breaking down any muscle during a diet then enjoy staying in that 10-14% bodyfat range. If you want the ripped look that "most" people here seem to apsire to then losing a bit of muscle along the way is part of it.

Some of the things I totally agree with, others I completely do not.

Catabolism occurs whether or not you have achieved a ketogenic state, so I dont know where you are going with that exactly. A nitrogen deficit alone could cause muscle breakdown, gluconeogenesis is also another form of muscle catabolism that could occur due to a lack of glycogen. But we are not talking about that. You could have a full glycogen reserve and still break down muscle.

Can you prove that it is a myth? The biggest problem I have is when someone on a competitive level discredits the science of something because of the common "It worked for me" response. fireguy, while your accomplishments are admirable, you seem to keep forgetting that most of these guys are not on a competition level, nor do most of them not aspire to be.

[FireGuy]

My ketogenic statement was in regards to your statement that taking in simple sugars would somehow remove us from this catabolic environment.
Your are right, catabolism can occur whether you are in ketogenic or not. Glucongeonisis is the breakdown of protein, not necessarily muscle for energy.

As far as the "it worked for me mentallity" I am telling you it works for everyone I know and I know a lot of people in this business. As far as my being on a competition level or not, I am simply telling you the best and most efficient way to burn bodyfat. Do you think its a coincidence that the all of the best conditioned members on this board all subscribe to the same theory?

[FireGuy]

Some of the things I totally agree with, others I completely do not.

Catabolism occurs whether or not you have achieved a ketogenic state, so I dont know where you are going with that exactly. A nitrogen deficit alone could cause muscle breakdown, gluconeogenesis is also another form of muscle catabolism that could occur due to a lack of glycogen. But we are not talking about that. You could have a full glycogen reserve and still break down muscle.

Can you prove that it is a myth? The biggest problem I have is when someone on a competitive level discredits the science of something because of the common "It worked for me" response. fireguy, while your accomplishments are admirable, you seem to keep forgetting that most of these guys are not on a competition level, nor do most of them not aspire to be.

BTW, my response was in no way meant to discredit you. You have obviously done some reading and research and it comes across in many of your posts. I guarantee though, you are on the wrong side of the argument on this topic.

[RoadToRecovery]

My ketogenic statement was in regards to your statement that taking in simple sugars would somehow remove us from this catabolic environment.
Your are right, catabolism can occur whether you are in ketogenic or not. Glucongeonisis is the breakdown of protein, not necessarily muscle for energy.

Protein will usually always equate to muscle.

I need to clear something up. I messed up and left out "with".

Your body is in a catabolic state upon wake up and will stay that way until you consume food. Preferably, with a simple carb.

I always advocate eating a meal before AM cardio. Some will say BCAAs, or a protein shake. But I will say that a complete meal is beneficial.

As far as the "it worked for me mentallity" I am telling you it works for everyone I know and I know a lot of people in this business. As far as my being on a competition level or not, I am simply telling you the best and most efficient way to burn bodyfat. Do you think its a coincidence that the all of the best conditioned members on this board all subscribe to the same theory?

I think its not coincidental at all. Are you able to admit that its possible that this theory which was a popular one, is simply wrong? Its not rare that common practices are deemed wrong or non-beneficial in any circumstance... especially in the fitness field.

[FireGuy]

Protein will usually always equate to muscle.

I need to clear something up. I messed up and left out "with".



I always advocate eating a meal before AM cardio. Some will say BCAAs, or a protein shake. But I will say that a complete meal is beneficial.



I think its not coincidental at all. Are you able to admit that its possible that this theory which was a popular one, is simply wrong? Its not rare that common practices are deemed wrong or non-beneficial in any circumstance... especially in the fitness field.

Of course, you will rarely see me speak in absolutes on any topic in these forums. My mentor has a Masters Degree in exercise and nutrition. He has competed in nearly 200 bodybuilding competitions and has won more shows and trained more guys who have won shows than either of us could ever count. He is 55 years old now, still winning shows and starts every day with 45-60 minutes of high intensity cardio on an empty stomach.

[RoadToRecovery]

Of course, you will rarely see me speak in absolutes on any topic in these forums. My mentor has a Masters Degree in exercise and nutrition. He has competed in nearly 200 bodybuilding competitions and has won more shows and trained more guys who have won shows than either of us could ever count. He is 55 years old now, still winning shows and starts every day with 45-60 minutes of high intensity cardio on an empty stomach.

Old habits die hard.

I would never compare an elite athlete with an up and comer or average joe. It could be to the point where you can do everything wrong and see great results in certain people. Competitive body builders have above average genetics and could even see benefit from cardio on an empty stomach. Would you lift on an empty stomach? Arnold did. Does that mean its correct?

[RED26]

I'm with fireguy1
I've tried everything. You name it.
Cardio in the night, cardio PWO, cardio in the evening, cardio twice a day... and with a reasonable mixtures of nutrition approaches with each one of those, and the BEST way to burn fat is by doing cardio first thing in the morning with an empty stomach.
That's it.
And just like fireguy1 said, I'm also 100% absolutely SURE you are on the wrong side of the argument on this topic.

[RoadToRecovery]

I'm with fireguy1
I've tried everything. You name it.
Cardio in the night, cardio PWO, cardio in the evening, cardio twice a day... and with a reasonable mixtures of nutrition approaches with each one of those, and the BEST way to burn fat is by doing cardio first thing in the morning with an empty stomach.
That's it.
And just like fireguy1 said, I'm also 100% absolutely SURE you are on the wrong side of the argument on this topic.

How can you be 100% sure? Did you do a body comp assessment to verify whether or not it was in fact fat and not muscle/glycogen/water or are you just hopping on the argument band wagon? How long did you do it each way before you figured out that cardio on an empty stomach was the best way?

You cant stand so firm in an argument... If theres significant proof that you are wrong... then what?

[FireGuy]

Glad you brought that up. Because I have data on over 1,000 body comps which I have personally performed showing well over a hundred different people doing empty stomach AM cardio and not losing lean mass. My wife actually gained muscle on her 16 week contest diet doing 2 hours of cardio a day. I have body comps and pics to back it up.

And please stop with the analogy of comparing elite athletes or people who compete. This debate is about maintaining as much lean muscle as possible while ridding the body of fat. The people who have mastered that the best just happen to be competive bodybuilders but the same concept and results apply just as well to the 40 year old soccer mom.

I dont want to turn this into a flame fest or a war of words but I do find it rather pretencious that you state "I want to clear something up" on this subject suggesting how the we have all been giving the wrong advice on this subject. So in your mind, all of us who have had great success with this method have been doing it wrong all along? And you know the right way to do it yet you yourself are fat? As Keyshawn Johnson would say "C'mon Man!" At some point I would think logic would set in and maybe you would realize your textbook knowledge is not being applied correctly.

I am not saying you need to compete or be 5% bodyfat to give advice on how to do it but you have never walked the walk yet you want to talk the talk and argue with people who have actually been down this road a few times and acheived real world results.

[RoadToRecovery]

Glad you brought that up. Because I have data on over 1,000 body comps which I have personally performed showing well over a hundred different people doing empty stomach AM cardio and not losing lean mass. My wife actually gained muscle on her 16 week contest diet doing 2 hours of cardio a day. I have body comps and pics to back it up.

Lets see it.

And please stop with the analogy of comparing elite athletes or people who compete. This debate is about maintaining as much lean muscle as possible while ridding the body of fat. The people who have mastered that the best just happen to be competive bodybuilders but the same concept and results apply just as well to the 40 year old soccer mom.

Wrong. Completely wrong. You know as well as I do that the routines/diets of a professional competitor and the routines for someone just trying to lose weight are entirely different and should remain that way. This is to say that if its good for a competitor who takes x amount of steroids/supplements/ and has x amount of years behind them there for it is good for the average dieter/lifter. Every debate has its variables and sub arguments.

I dont want to turn this into a flame fest or a war of words but I do find it rather pretencious that you state "I want to clear something up" on this subject suggesting how the we have all been giving the wrong advice on this subject. So in your mind, all of us who have had great success with this method have been doing it wrong all along? And you know the right way to do it yet you yourself are fat?

I love when it comes to this. Because it completely blurs out your entire argument. So because I have 18% bf makes me incredulous? Thats such a pathetic argument. Its a cop out and a low blow and frankly I am a bit disappointed to hear it come from you. Have you ever heard of Brian Dobson?

As Keyshawn Johnson would say "C'mon Man!" At some point I would think logic would set in and maybe you would realize your textbook knowledge is not being applied correctly.

I asked you to provide proof. Instead you provide childish tactics to try to gain leverage in what was at first beginning to be an intelligent debate.

I am not saying you need to compete or be 5% bodyfat to give advice on how to do it

Yes you are.

but you have never walked the walk yet you want to talk the talk and argue with people who have actually been down this road a few times and acheived real world results.

Thats like telling an orthopedist - Since you've never broken a bone you have no idea how to fix it. Lets keep this pertaining to the topic and relevant.

Does it matter that I have testimonial proof of clients that I have helped achieve 9% bf from above 30%? Does that count FG? PM me and I will be happy to provide my most recent testimonial.

Thats such a green horn comment to make. Why does everyones goals have to be sub 10% bf?

[6ft5]

That was a very insightfull exange of information. I'm glad I read back on this. And I said green beans. Lol also if I ever wana get more cuts I do am cardio on empty. Not cut after workout

[RED26]

How can you be 100% sure? Did you do a body comp assessment to verify whether or not it was in fact fat and not muscle/glycogen/water or are you just hopping on the argument band wagon? How long did you do it each way before you figured out that cardio on an empty stomach was the best way?

Yes I did.
Every 2 weeks I took measurements, weight and BF.
Each "experiment" was conducted for 6 weeks. (Period of time that usually takes me to pass from 8-9% BF to 4-5% BF) Approximatedly 3-4 months apart, so I could start with nearly the same stats each time.
Same diet, same schedule, same everything.
Cardio on an empty stomach first thing in the morning threw the best results. Cardio after weights thew the worse, becuse it involved muscle loss.

And that is also availed by all the people I work with... I've used them as lab hamsters just to be sure that it wasn't only what was working best for ME, but also to work with everyone else, and it did.

Since then, YES, I'm 100% SURE.

[RoadToRecovery]

Yes I did.
Every 2 weeks I took measurements, weight and BF.
Each "experiment" was conducted for 6 weeks. (Period of time that usually takes me to pass from 8-9% BF to 4-5% BF) Approximatedly 3-4 months apart, so I could start with nearly the same stats each time.
Same diet, same schedule, same everything.
Cardio on an empty stomach first thing in the morning threw the best results. Cardio after weights thew the worse, becuse it involved muscle loss.

And that is also availed by all the people I work with... I've used them as lab hamsters just to be sure that it wasn't only what was working best for ME, but also to work with everyone else, and it did.

Since then, YES, I'm 100% SURE.

What were your variable groups? What were your findings?

[RED26]

Why does everyones goals have to be sub 10% bf?

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that by that number is when you actually start to look good. Not bloated, not puffy, not fat, not half muscle-half chubby man.

[FireGuy]

Lets see it.



Wrong. Completely wrong. You know as well as I do that the routines/diets of a professional competitor and the routines for someone just trying to lose weight are entirely different and should remain that way. This is to say that if its good for a competitor who takes x amount of steroids/supplements/ and has x amount of years behind them there for it is good for the average dieter/lifter. Every debate has its variables and sub arguments.



I love when it comes to this. Because it completely blurs out your entire argument. So because I have 18% bf makes me incredulous? Thats such a pathetic argument. Its a cop out and a low blow and frankly I am a bit disappointed to hear it come from you. Have you ever heard of Brian Dobson?



I asked you to provide proof. Instead you provide childish tactics to try to gain leverage in what was at first beginning to be an intelligent debate.


Yes you are.



Thats like telling an orthopedist - Since you've never broken a bone you have no idea how to fix it. Lets keep this pertaining to the topic and relevant.

Does it matter that I have testimonial proof of clients that I have helped achieve 9% bf from above 30%? Does that count FG? PM me and I will be happy to provide my most recent testimonial.

Thats such a green horn comment to make. Why does everyones goals have to be sub 10% bf?

First pic, 135.6 lbs, 16.01% BF, 113.9 lean, 21.7 fat
Second pic (girl with hair up) 11 weeks later after doing 60 minutes fasted AM cardio and 60 PWO cardio. 129lbs, 10.1% BF 116 lean, 13 fat. I can post these kinda results all day long too BTW.

[RoadToRecovery]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wescott6.htm

According to this competing bodybuilder -

After sleeping all night for 6-8 hours, or whatever amount is required for you personally, the body, upon arising in the morning, is in a very catabolic state. This means a state of negative nitrogen balance, something no bodybuilder wants.

To perform cardio at this time, on an empty stomach, creates a further state of catabolism, thus resulting in muscle breakdown, and muscle tissue loss. The exact opposite of what bodybuilding is all about! It's true that blood sugar levels are low in the morning, but so are amino acids, the building blocks of protein.

[RoadToRecovery]

First pic, 135.6 lbs, 16.01% BF, 113.9 lean, 21.7 fat
Second pic (girl with hair up) 11 weeks later after doing 60 minutes fasted AM cardio and 60 PWO cardio. 129lbs, 10.1% BF 116 lean, 13 fat. I can post these kinda results all day long too BTW.

"Cmon Man!" This shows/proves nothing.

[RoadToRecovery]

Edit

[FireGuy]

Lets see it.

Backed up my statement.

Wrong. Completely wrong. You know as well as I do that the routines/diets of a professional competitor and the routines for someone just trying to lose weight are entirely different and should remain that way. This is to say that if its good for a competitor who takes x amount of steroids/supplements/ and has x amount of years behind them there for it is good for the average dieter/lifter. Every debate has its variables and sub arguments.

Wrong? I said the concepts were the same. You dont agree?


I love when it comes to this. Because it completely blurs out your entire argument. So because I have 18% bf makes me incredulous? Thats such a pathetic argument. Its a cop out and a low blow and frankly I am a bit disappointed to hear it come from you. Have you ever heard of Brian Dobson?

I am not saying it makes you incredulous but if I wouldnt go see a marriage counselor who had never actually been married. What I am saying is you are not lean, have never been lean yet you are saying you know more than those who are actually doing this and getting results. I only mentioned your bodyfat because I feel as it is relevent to the debate.
I asked you to provide proof. Instead you provide childish tactics to try to gain leverage in what was at first beginning to be an intelligent debate.


Yes you are.



Thats like telling an orthopedist - Since you've never broken a bone you have no idea how to fix it. Lets keep this pertaining to the topic and relevant.

Does it matter that I have testimonial proof of clients that I have helped achieve 9% bf from above 30%? Does that count FG? PM me and I will be happy to provide my most recent testimonial.

You are so defensive in this thread you are missing the major points. I said, cardio can be effective anytime. Just most effective fasted AM or PWO. I also stated losing a bit of muscle is a fact of life if you want to get really lean. You are so busy defending yourself you are not digesting what I have been writing

Thats such a green horn comment to make. Why does everyones goals have to be sub 10% bf?

I never said they were or should be, but given the choice I bet the majority of the members on this board wished they looked like they competed even if they didnt plan on it. The main thing that stops them is not wanting to do the work

[FireGuy]

"Cmon Man!" This shows/proves nothing.

It shows the people I train get in shape and dont lose muscle just as my avi does. That's what this thread is about.

[RoadToRecovery]

Its 9%bf from 32%. Can you delete the pics in the quote.

[FireGuy]

Deleted.

[RoadToRecovery]

Thanks

[YoungGunsNY]

Definently a good read, definently going to confuse many - as it did me lol..

[energizer bunny]

yeah good debating...good to see two knowledgeable people debating info!......though i would have to side with fireguy1......i know what RTR is saying about peolple not needing to look the part to know what they are talking about is correct,,,,BUT id rather take advice from someone who has both knowledge and the body and fireguy1 is that guy.........

[Swifto]

Lets thrown this into the mix...




Myths Under The Microscope Part 2: False Hopes for Fasted Cardio

By Alan Aragon © 2006





False Hopes

The bandwagon is lead by blind horses

Many trainees pigeonhole weight training as an activity exclusively for building muscle, and cardio exclusively for burning fat. On the contrary, weight training can yield very similar results to cardio of similar intensity when 24-hr energy expenditure and macronutrient oxidation is measured [1]. The obvious advantage of weight training is the higher potential for lean mass and strength gains. In the bodybuilding context, cardio should be viewed as merely an adjunctive training mode to further energy expenditure and cross-complement the adaptations specific to weight training. As far as cardio being absolutely necessary for cardiovascular health, well, that depends upon the overall volume and magnitude of your weight training - another topic for another time.

Chaos theory strikes again

On the surface, it seems logical to separate carbs from cardio if you want a maximal degree of fat oxidation to occur during training. But, there’s the underlying mistake - focusing on stored fuel usage during training instead of focusing on optimally partitioning exogenous fuel for maximal lipolytic effect around the clock. Put another way, it’s a better objective to coincide your carb intake with your day’s thermic peaks, where insulin sensitivity & lean tissue reception to carbs is highest. For some reason, this logic is not easily accepted, nor understood. As we know, human physiology doesn’t always cooperate with logic or popular opinion, so let’s scrutinize the science behind the claims.

Let The Research Speak

Carbohydrate ingestion during low-intensity exercise reduces fat oxidation

As far as 3 decades back, Ahlborg’s team observed that carb ingestion during low-intensity exercise (25-45% VO2 max) reduced fat oxidation compared to fasted levels [2]. More recently, De Glisezinski’s team observed similar results in trained men at 50% VO2 max [3]. Efforts to determine the mechanism behind this phenomenon have been made. Coyle’s team observed that at 50% VO2 max, carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation by coordinating hyperinsulinemia to inhibit long-chain fatty acid transport into mitochondria [4].

Carbohydrate’s effect on fat oxidation during moderate-intensity exercise depends on conditioning level


Civitarese’s team found glucose ingestion during exercise to blunt lipolysis via decreasing the gene expression involved in fat oxidation in untrained men [5]. Wallis’ team saw suppressed fat oxidation in moderately trained men & women when glucose was ingested during exercise [6].

In contrast to the above trials on beginning and intermediate trainees, Coyle’s team repeatedly showed that carb ingestion during moderate-intensity (65-75% VO2 max) does not reduce fat oxidation during the first 120 min of exercise in trained men [7,8]. Interestingly, the intensity margin proximal to where fat oxidation is highest was unaffected by carb ingestion, and remained so for the first 2 hours of exercise.

Horowitz’ team examined the effect of a during-training solution of high-glycemic carbs on moderately trained men undergoing either low intensity exercise (25% VO2 max) or high-moderate intensity (68% VO2 max) [9]. Similar results to Coyle’s work were seen. Subjects completed a 2-hr cycling bout, and ingested the carb solution at 30, 60, and 90 minutes in. In the low-intensity treatment, fat oxidation was not reduced below fasted-state control group’s levels until 80-90 min of exercise. In the 68% group, no difference in fat oxidation was seen whether subjects were fasted or fed throughout the trial.

Further supporting the evidence in favor of fed cardio in trained men, Febbraio’s team investigated the effects of carb ingestion pre & during training in easily one of the best-designed trials on this topic [10]. Subjects exercised for 2 hrs at an intensity level of 63% VO2 max, which is now known as the point of maximal fat oxidation during exercise. Result? Pre & during-training carbs increased performance - and there was no difference in total fat oxidation between the fasted and fed subjects. Despite the elevated insulin levels in the carb-fueled groups, there was no difference in fat availability or fat utilization.



Summing Up the Research Findings

• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.




References

Melanson EL, et al. Resistance and aerobic exercise have similar effects on 24-h nutrient oxidation.. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Nov;34(11):1793-800.
Ahlborg, G., and P. Felig. Influence of glucose ingestion on fuel-hormone response during prolonged exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 1976;41:683-688.
De Glisezinski I, et al. Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on adipose tissue lipolysis during long-lasting exercise in trained men. J Appl Physiol. 1998 May;84(5):1627-32.
Coyle EF, et al. Fatty acid oxidation is directly regulated by carbohydrate metabolism during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1997 Aug;273(2 Pt 1):E268-75.
Civitarese AE, et al. Glucose ingestion during exercise blunts exercise-induced gene expression of skeletal muscle fat oxidative genes. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Dec;289(6):E1023-9.
Wallis GA, et al. Metabolic response to carbohydrate ingestion during exercise in males and females. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Apr;290(4):E708-15.
Coyle, et al. Muscle glycogen utilization during prolonged strenuous exercise when fed carbohydrate. J. Appl. Physiol. 1986;6:165-172.
Coyle, et al.. Carbohydrates during prolonged strenuous exercise can delay fatigue. J. Appl. Physiol. 59: 429-433, 1983.
Horowitz JF, et al. Substrate metabolism when subjects are fed carbohydrate during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1999 May;276(5 Pt 1):E828-35.
Febbraio MA, et al. Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and exercise performance. J Appl Physiol. 2000 Dec;89(6):2220-6.


FG has been there and done this, thats imperitive IMHO. I have never done fasted cardio, personally. After reading the above and with high levels of cortisol, I thought other times of the day were better. Such as PWO intaking Vitamins C pre-WO and PWO.

[Swifto]

I think another issue is the use of androgens.

Cortisol is systemically lower using androgens and the body has a constant stream of anabolic support. Whereas someone who is natural, during PCT, or inbetween cycles doesnt have those benifits.

[stevey_6t9]

interesting points both sides, but then again this is one of the oldest debatable subjects in bodybuilding and probably will be for some time to come.

sure cortisol levels are at its peak in the morning and low glycogen stores can convert amino acids from muscle tissue into glucose for energy, but im my personally experience i found that keeping a low HR 50-70% max HR didnt really affect me whilst dieting last year.

[Kiki]

I am going to do you a huge favor. Take that concept and put it in your "myth" folder. The same folder that has "Behind the neck presses work rear delts" "Doing cardio PWO will make me miss my anabolic window" and "Do high reps for defined muscles".

Just because you have slept for 8 hours does NOT mean you are waking up in a catabolic state. It takes quite an extreme amount of time and effort to put yourself in a ketogenic state. Simply sleeping for 8 hours does not deplete your body of glycogen. Your diet the previous day will have much more influence on this than 8 hours of sleep.

I have stated before that cardio anytime is effective and your body will still burn some fat regardless of whether you just ate an hour ago or a day ago. But, if we want it to be optimal, empty stomach AM cardio and PWO are the MOST effective times to do it. Set aside, BMR, TDEE, Macro Ratios, and meal timing for 1 minute and remember this. Getting lean is about 1 thing and 1 thing only. Manipulating your body to used stored bodyfat as an energy source.

As also previously stated, if AM cardio was catabolic I should look like a triathlete and not a bodybuilder by now. Same with MrsFireguy. She does 60 minutes of empty stomach AM cardio 7 days a week. Check the recent thread in the Members Pics thread and let me know if you think it ate away her muscle. Oh, she was also doing 60 minutes PWO as well.

I know at least 50 competitive bodybuilders on a personal level. Ranging from IFBB Pro's, National Level guys and Regional and State level ones. Every single one of them, not most of them, ALL of them do empty stomach AM cardio. From a scientific perspective that doesnt make it right but it should tell you something.

Also, if you want to get lean be prepared to lose some muscle. I am not talking about 10-12%. I am talking single digit contest lean. We can minimize this with a dialed in diet and having as much muscle as possible to start with. If you are truly worried about your body ever breaking down any muscle during a diet then enjoy staying in that 10-14% bodyfat range. If you want the ripped look that "most" people here seem to apsire to then losing a bit of muscle along the way is part of it.

Good read. BTW fireguy do you not ingest any aminos what so ever before your AM cardio? Be it through some zero carb whey or some other supp?

Personally i've found AM cardio with around 15 grams of zero carb protein prior, is the best way for me to lose fat.

[Ronnie Rowland]

I think another issue is the use of androgens.

Cortisol is systemically lower using androgens and the body has a constant stream of anabolic support. Whereas someone who is natural, during PCT, or inbetween cycles doesnt have those benifits.

That's been my experience as well. I have also found that a lot of naturals that do daily cardio (especially the high intensity form) lose muscle and flatten out!

[jbran23]

Glad to see this thread finally took off. I had forgotten all about starting this because I thought it had died.