Carbs Post WO, Really Necessary???

[ChuckLee]

Hi fellas,
Reading many threads about carbs post-workout, about their role in timing while cutting.
Well, I'm planning my cutting diet and since I'm pretty carb-sensitive, I am wondering if I REALLY need them to recover after my workout.
People say that carbs play an important role in prevent muscle catabolism after weight training, but I don't have understand in which way they can do this yet. I think 50 grams of whey would suffice to prevent catabolism as well.
Actually I'm taking 50mg of dextrose PWO along with wheys, and I'm noticeing that my belly bulges in the hours after my shake intake.
What I wanna know and hear from you guys is if I can take some complex carbs instead of simple ones like dex/maltodex, or even don't take them at all since I am cutting and I've already the whey that make the trick.
Diet guru, PB, told me that I have ALWAYS to have my carbs PWO, and I wanna listen him, but I'd like to know in which process they do prevent catabolism and if they are REALLY necessary to not lose hard achieved lean mass.

Thanks in advance.
CL

[ChuckLee]

tuh deh taup

[Prada]

Yes you need them to restore glycogen levels. For the "bulge" can use Waxy Maize in lieu. Even complex carbs or low GI as in oats are ok.

[MuscleScience]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=338414

[pump.joe]

Yup. And they are unlikely to be stored as fat as long as you have your PWO soon after you finish the workout.

[ChuckLee]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=338414

I've already read that article few days ago and I found it pretty interesting, it has been part of the reason why I started this thread as well.

Thank you all guys

[AandF6969]

I read a study that confirmed the optimal ratio of protein/carbs for the best glycogen replentishment and muscle repair is a 1:2 ratio... MUCH better than protein or carbs alone.

[ChuckLee]

Bump for more wise answers plz

[Polska]

what about Post Post workout carbs..... how important are they while cutting?

[JC2007]

what about Post Post workout carbs..... how important are they while cutting?

They're important although I would reduce the amount you consume slightly.

[novastepp]

what about Post Post workout carbs..... how important are they while cutting?

again, i don't see a reason not to have them. really in all honesty depends on your diet. i use pro/cab meals for every single meal while cutting. so pro/carb PPWO is a given for me.

[suprman09]

again, i don't see a reason not to have them. really in all honesty depends on your diet. i use pro/cab meals for every single meal while cutting. so pro/carb PPWO is a given for me.

nova do you mind explaining why you do this? when do you have your fats? also do you mind me asking what your macros are while cutting? thanks alot, i really appreciate your knowledge/feedback

[novastepp]

nova do you mind explaining why you do this? when do you have your fats? also do you mind me asking what your macros are while cutting? thanks alot, i really appreciate your knowledge/feedback

i find that a steady level of insulin throughout the day will keep you lean and allow your body to really lose body fat. i don't really supplement any fats. i'm guessing i have about 15-20g a day from my lean protein choices. now i have a big problem with eating peanut butter, haha, so i try to limit my use. every few days i will have peanut butter with my protein before bed.

realistically i have about 240g of carbs a day, and a little over 350g of protein. usually all from oats and sweet potatoes, and any lean protein source i can find. i just divide my macros over how ever many meals i plan on eating and then i figure the grams of carbs per carb source and that tells me how much to eat. its all pretty simple. i do the same with my proteins. those numbers don't take into account my PWO because that is always the same, and it doesn't really throw off my weekly allowances because it is usually all the same, just more carbs and protein on those days.

i also do cardio a lot. i love to run sprints and i do them about an hour after a meal, and i will eat soon after doing them. i do morning cardio a few days a week too, for an hour. i enjoy it and i will take caffeine and a baby aspirin before. after cardio i just begin the pro/carb meals again. i also cycle my carbs and i keep them lower then some may recommend, but it is only for one day and i use a moderate level throughout the week, with one large refeed day followed by my lower day, which is never a training day.

i don't know if i said this or not, but my diet doesn't really vary when bulking or cutting. when bulking i will throw in some supplemented fats in the forms of nuts, peanut butter, and flax. i really don't see a problem with combining macros and i'vbe done it for years. i really don't see a need to add any more than about 15g of fat a meal either. so there isn't an issue with combining macros with me. personally i think it is overstated, and overemphasized. furthermore, when bulking i just up my carbs and supplemented fats. i may up protein if on cycle, but that's rare for me.

[naturalsux]

i find that a steady level of insulin throughout the day will keep you lean and allow your body to really lose body fat. i don't really supplement any fats. i'm guessing i have about 15-20g a day from my lean protein choices. now i have a big problem with eating peanut butter, haha, so i try to limit my use. every few days i will have peanut butter with my protein before bed.

realistically i have about 240g of carbs a day, and a little over 350g of protein. usually all from oats and sweet potatoes, and any lean protein source i can find. i just divide my macros over how ever many meals i plan on eating and then i figure the grams of carbs per carb source and that tells me how much to eat. its all pretty simple. i do the same with my proteins. those numbers don't take into account my PWO because that is always the same, and it doesn't really throw off my weekly allowances because it is usually all the same, just more carbs and protein on those days.

i also do cardio a lot. i love to run sprints and i do them about an hour after a meal, and i will eat soon after doing them. i do morning cardio a few days a week too, for an hour. i enjoy it and i will take caffeine and a baby aspirin before. after cardio i just begin the pro/carb meals again. i also cycle my carbs and i keep them lower then some may recommend, but it is only for one day and i use a moderate level throughout the week, with one large refeed day followed by my lower day, which is never a training day.

i don't know if i said this or not, but my diet doesn't really vary when bulking or cutting. when bulking i will throw in some supplemented fats in the forms of nuts, peanut butter, and flax. i really don't see a problem with combining macros and i'vbe done it for years. i really don't see a need to add any more than about 15g of fat a meal either. so there isn't an issue with combining macros with me. personally i think it is overstated, and overemphasized. furthermore, when bulking i just up my carbs and supplemented fats. i may up protein if on cycle, but that's rare for me.

i figured your carbs were higher. this is you cutting? whats your carbs like when bulking?

also what body type are you? ecto?

[TR'05]

IMHO, PWO carbs are essential. Insulin sensitivity is at its highest and the chances of not utilizing CHO for glycogen replenishment/recovery is near impossible.

That said, there are ways to replenish glycogen without CHO. Poliquin has been preaching a combination of whey protein isolate, glycine, and glutamine- all three is high doses- which can replenish glycogen sans CHO. The dosages CP recommends will surely leave you riding the porcelain throne, however.

[novastepp]

catabolic and all derivatives of the word = way overused.

catabolic can be used in reference to fat too, which is desirable. i suppose to be catabolic after a workout might generally be termed for muscle tissue, but with glycogen stores nearly or completely tapped, you would be primed for some catabolic activity in reference to fat.

in any case, carbohydrates PWO are absolutely necessary for many reasons. first of all, eating any form of carb/protein meal is what you want. no one says you have to have the simple sugars like dextrose pwo, personally, i don't see the need to eat sugar. people say "insulin spike" well it's merely a response, and any form of an insulin response, whether it comes from oats or dextrose, will provide the blunt to cortisol and begin glycogen replenishment.

stopping cortisol is one of the reasons to have a pro/carb meal PWO. also, people say, "to fill glycogen" well, that takes over 24 hours to achieve, the process merely needs to be started. and seeing as glycogen stores are filled from CHO's, carbohydrates are the best choice to begin and complete the process, this is why carbs help you with cardiac and muscular endurance, as well as explosive power and beneficial training sessions. carbs are absolutely essential to cutting, and i really do believe that if anyone tried a mainly pro/carb cutting diet they would have more success than with a diet consisting of mainly pro/fat, but that is my opinion.

now, protein synthesis. protein synthesis can begin merely but substituting BCAA's PWO. so those IMO are absolutely worth it. and a combination of pro/carb will provide essential building blocks to protein synthesis, and the glycogen replenishment will also aid in protein synthesis and muscle recovery, again, leading to productive training. this is one of the reasons i don't buy into the carb sensitivity crap. i love when people who say tey are carb sensitive still use dextrose PWO, but that is neither here nor there because what you eat PWO... in the great scheme of things, does not really matter in terms to your overall physique. it is highly over thought. no reason you couldn't have oats and your whey or chicken and rice or a couple tuna sandwiches.

i could go on and on about the benefits, but again i find myself trying to cover all bases and it's difficult. i think it would do you good to try any and all approaches for a few months. rate everything you can as objectively as possible. how were you feeling? struggling in workouts? lethargy? nervousness? homo-erotic tendencies? but seriously, keep a log of everything. then after all those months, return to see which combination of macros and timing worked best for you. i personally always do PWO cardio, whether its just a brisk 10 minute walk or a 30 minute 65% HR session. i find it helps me with soreness and i always make gains in the gym. i then consume a cup of fat free cottage cheese, 2 scoops of whey, a cup of skim milk, and a half cup of oats...cutting or bulking. the rest of my day will provide me the benefits of a selection of proteins, carbs, and fats. ramble.

[ChuckLee]

catabolic and all derivatives of the word = way overused.

catabolic can be used in reference to fat too, which is desirable. i suppose to be catabolic after a workout might generally be termed for muscle tissue, but with glycogen stores nearly or completely tapped, you would be primed for some catabolic activity in reference to fat.

in any case, carbohydrates PWO are absolutely necessary for many reasons. first of all, eating any form of carb/protein meal is what you want. no one says you have to have the simple sugars like dextrose pwo, personally, i don't see the need to eat sugar. people say "insulin spike" well it's merely a response, and any form of an insulin response, whether it comes from oats or dextrose, will provide the blunt to cortisol and begin glycogen replenishment.

stopping cortisol is one of the reasons to have a pro/carb meal PWO. also, people say, "to fill glycogen" well, that takes over 24 hours to achieve, the process merely needs to be started. and seeing as glycogen stores are filled from CHO's, carbohydrates are the best choice to begin and complete the process, this is why carbs help you with cardiac and muscular endurance, as well as explosive power and beneficial training sessions. carbs are absolutely essential to cutting, and i really do believe that if anyone tried a mainly pro/carb cutting diet they would have more success than with a diet consisting of mainly pro/fat, but that is my opinion.

now, protein synthesis. protein synthesis can begin merely but substituting BCAA's PWO. so those IMO are absolutely worth it. and a combination of pro/carb will provide essential building blocks to protein synthesis, and the glycogen replenishment will also aid in protein synthesis and muscle recovery, again, leading to productive training. this is one of the reasons i don't buy into the carb sensitivity crap. i love when people who say tey are carb sensitive still use dextrose PWO, but that is neither here nor there because what you eat PWO... in the great scheme of things, does not really matter in terms to your overall physique. it is highly over thought. no reason you couldn't have oats and your whey or chicken and rice or a couple tuna sandwiches.

i could go on and on about the benefits, but again i find myself trying to cover all bases and it's difficult. i think it would do you good to try any and all approaches for a few months. rate everything you can as objectively as possible. how were you feeling? struggling in workouts? lethargy? nervousness? homo-erotic tendencies? but seriously, keep a log of everything. then after all those months, return to see which combination of macros and timing worked best for you. i personally always do PWO cardio, whether its just a brisk 10 minute walk or a 30 minute 65% HR session. i find it helps me with soreness and i always make gains in the gym. i then consume a cup of fat free cottage cheese, 2 scoops of whey, a cup of skim milk, and a half cup of oats...cutting or bulking. the rest of my day will provide me the benefits of a selection of proteins, carbs, and fats. ramble.

Very educative post Nova.
I think I'll opt for complex carbs as oats or something fibrous for my PWO meal.
Thanks

CL

[M302_Imola]

Nova is a highly educated guy when it comes to this stuff. There is no doubt in my mind that his diet is spot on whether he is bulking or cutting and he works his ass off, but from the pics I have seen of him, genetics are heavily on his side. This guy is ripped and jacked, very impressive!

[novastepp]

Very educative post Nova.
I think I'll opt for complex carbs as oats or something fibrous for my PWO meal.
Thanks

CL

yeah, you don't have to use simple carbs at all. i always go for the high GI carbs PWO. good luck on the progress whore

[audis4]

i do the same as nova and I'm cutting like a mother
i have 2 tb pb before bed

[ChuckLee]

So, Nova whore, what should be the best sources for complex carbs?
I was thinking on some oats in my shake but here they're hard to find, i'd have to buy them from another country, and if possible I'd avoid this. Some fibrous carbs as bananas?

[novastepp]

So, Nova whore, what should be the best sources for complex carbs?
I was thinking on some oats in my shake but here they're hard to find, i'd have to buy them from another country, and if possible I'd avoid this. Some fibrous carbs as bananas?

no custom title yet??

i personally use sweet potaoes/yams. i know they aren't exactly the same thing. but yams here in the U.S. are usually just called sweet potatoes, because i guess they are probably cheap so stores don't carry yams.

so i use sweet potatoes. but i do use oats too. i just buy the quaker oats "old fashioned" kind. nanners are ok too. but i just use those two primary sources for my carbs. and broccoli, i think i have a broccoli addiction by the way.

[smokeyd]

i think i have a broccoli addiction by the way.

o thats always a hard battle, good luck and dont give up on the meetings!

[ChuckLee]

no custom title yet??

i personally use sweet potaoes/yams. i know they aren't exactly the same thing. but yams here in the U.S. are usually just called sweet potatoes, because i guess they are probably cheap so stores don't carry yams.

so i use sweet potatoes. but i do use oats too. i just buy the quaker oats "old fashioned" kind. nanners are ok too. but i just use those two primary sources for my carbs. and broccoli, i think i have a broccoli addiction by the way.

So you eat potatoes and broccoli in the lockerroom right after your workout???
Or they have to be meant PPWO?
Can I have my why right after my WO and my complex carbs 1 hour after so?

[suprman09]

So you eat potatoes and broccoli in the lockerroom right after your workout???
Or they have to be meant PPWO?
Can I have my why right after my WO and my complex carbs 1 hour after so?

I would like to know this too.

[novastepp]

So you eat potatoes and broccoli in the lockerroom right after your workout???
Or they have to be meant PPWO?
Can I have my why right after my WO and my complex carbs 1 hour after so?

i just use them for my meals. i don't eat at the gym, i usually do some form of PWO cardio for about 20-30 minutes.

you could separate your protein and carbs but why? if you eat them together, then you don't have to wait any extra time eating that PPOWO meal.

[AandF6969]

Its better for glycogen replentishment and muscle recovery to have them together... i read a study on this a while back

[ChuckLee]

Thanks AandF...
Any other opinion on this?

[No One Knows]

I do a shake with 70g WMS and 10g creatine right after my last set. When I get home(10-15 minutes later) I have my whey. THEN afte a shower and some bullshitting(about 45 minutes) I have some lean meat and a complex carb w/ veggies.

I've found that this works very well for me.

[naturalsux]

I do a shake with 70g WMS and 10g creatine right after my last set. When I get home(10-15 minutes later) I have my whey. THEN afte a shower and some bullshitting(about 45 minutes) I have some lean meat and a complex carb w/ veggies.

I've found that this works very well for me.

why not the whey with WMS?

[No One Knows]

why not the whey with WMS?

I've read that its better absorbed this way.(Waiting 15 minutes or so). The main priority PWO, as A&F stated is to replenish glycogen stores. The WMS will do that. Supposedly the protein is better absorbed if its consumed seperately(after) the WMS. I'll try to find the article...

[naturalsux]

I've read that its better absorbed this way.(Waiting 15 minutes or so). The main priority PWO, as A&F stated is to replenish glycogen stores. The WMS will do that. Supposedly the protein is better absorbed if its consumed seperately(after) the WMS. I'll try to find the article...

thats fine, i was just wondering. i thought you would want the WMS to push the whey in the muscles.

[No One Knows]

thats fine, i was just wondering. i thought you would want the WMS to push the whey in the muscles.

I've also read that consuming protein with carbs increases the rate of glycogen replenishment....So I dunno what to believe...

I've done both though and what I'm doing now seems to work better for me.

[novastepp]

thats fine, i was just wondering. i thought you would want the WMS to push the whey in the muscles.

nothing pushes anything into muscles. carbs and protein do many thing which i have stated in a couple lengthy posts above. but there isn't a pushing action. combination of carbs and protein allows for greater absorption of aminos which then aid in recovery.

[novastepp]

I've read that its better absorbed this way.(Waiting 15 minutes or so). The main priority PWO, as A&F stated is to replenish glycogen stores. The WMS will do that. Supposedly the protein is better absorbed if its consumed seperately(after) the WMS. I'll try to find the article...

close. glycogen isn't replenished after just one meal. not even close really. your carbs should be consumed with your protein in any case. sip your whey over about a ten minute period to help your body elongate its absorption and aid in the absorption and subsequent glycogen replenishment. it will take you over a 24 hour period to replenish the majority of your glycogen.

[texasmk4]

I do a shake with 70g WMS and 10g creatine right after my last set. When I get home(10-15 minutes later) I have my whey. THEN afte a shower and some bullshitting(about 45 minutes) I have some lean meat and a complex carb w/ veggies.

I've found that this works very well for me.

you don't do cardio after you work out?? what if in my case i like to do a little cardio after work out can i wait till i done with my cardio or consume it right after it?

[ckyass]

you don't do cardio after you work out?? what if in my case i like to do a little cardio after work out can i wait till i done with my cardio or consume it right after it?

Consume your whey and carbs after your workout/cardio.. If i know im going to do cardio that day after my workout i usually give myself less rest time inbetween sets so im only lifting for a max of 35-40 mins...than hit 20-25 mins of low intensity cardo......Than hit the whey and wms. I used to take 50 grams whey, 100 grams of wms pwo but now ive been splitting that into half before and half after... so 25 whey pre, 50 wms pre and the same for post..I noticed much more intensity in the gym and i enjoy it. I have tried oats pwo and i wasnt a fan of it...i also tried dex/malo and it seemed to put the most weight on me but it seemed to be sloppy weight... Waxy maize so far has been nothing but good. Just my 2cent on the whole subject.

[novastepp]

Consume your whey and carbs after your workout/cardio.. If i know im going to do cardio that day after my workout i usually give myself less rest time inbetween sets so im only lifting for a max of 35-40 mins...than hit 20-25 mins of low intensity cardo......Than hit the whey and wms. I used to take 50 grams whey, 100 grams of wms pwo but now ive been splitting that into half before and half after... so 25 whey pre, 50 wms pre and the same for post..I noticed much more intensity in the gym and i enjoy it. I have tried oats pwo and i wasnt a fan of it...i also tried dex/malo and it seemed to put the most weight on me but it seemed to be sloppy weight... Waxy maize so far has been nothing but good. Just my 2cent on the whole subject.

see PWO cardio's benefits can be argued because if you only lift for say 30-45 minutes theoretically your glycogen stores aren't going to be tapped dry, if you will. so therefore your cardio will basically tap your glycogen stores instead of fat stores. so if you're only lifting for 30 minutes, it better be vicious. and i agree with you. just have whatever you normally have for your PWO offering, after your PWO cardio.

[ckyass]

see PWO cardio's benefits can be argued because if you only lift for say 30-45 minutes theoretically your glycogen stores aren't going to be tapped dry, if you will. so therefore your cardio will basically tap your glycogen stores instead of fat stores. so if you're only lifting for 30 minutes, it better be vicious. and i agree with you. just have whatever you normally have for your PWO offering, after your PWO cardio.

Yes Nova if im doing post cardio and only lifting for 40 mins, my lifting will include alot of drop sets/supersets.. Glycogen is most deff depleted after that because i keep the intensity very high.

[ChuckLee]

So what should be the minimum amount of carbs to injest to fully replenish glycogen stores?