Heart damage from Testosterone use? It's possible?

[TestoSuper]

Hello everyone , I wanted to ask you something very important .
You often hear ( and read online too ) that the long-term testosterone use can lead to abnormalities of the heart , but this is real?? ie , the left ventricular enlargement is due to a direct effect of testosterone as many claim ( I do not think so ) , or is it due to a blood pressure increase ( more realistic ) ?
If we control the blood pressure and the Lipid panel (Hdl and Ldl) can we prevent any form of damage to the heart, right ?
Sorry but I continue to read this bad thing and I would like some reassurance about.
Thanks

[FONZY007]

Hello everyone , I wanted to ask you something very important .
You often hear ( and read online too ) that the long-term testosterone use can lead to abnormalities of the heart , but this is real?? ie , the left ventricular enlargement is due to a direct effect of testosterone as many claim ( I do not think so ) , or is it due to a blood pressure increase ( more realistic ) ?
If we control the blood pressure and the Lipid panel (Hdl and Ldl) can we prevent any form of damage to the heart, right ?
Sorry but I continue to read this bad thing and I would like some reassurance about.
Thanks

Some abuse and have heart problems, but I mean abuse.

[Slacker78]

In brief: AAS affect the heart. BP, Lipids, Homocysteine, RBC, Increased Vascular Reactivity, Estrogens spikes are the all entities you have to fight for. The risk exists, there's a lot literature it about. The only way you have to lower the risks is use it with responsability, monitor your blood and take time to rest between cycles. Keep in my mind that more dosages and duration are higher and more you increase the risk to develop troubles. To have a good results it's not necessary to inject huge quantity of AAS: even 300mg/week of test with a good diet, could give you a good mass muscle increment. When you often heard tell stories about Body Builders which died or develop big heart troubles, in the majority of the cases is they did AAS abuse for a long term, neglecting the risks. Here there's a list of what you have to avoid to minimize the risks ( heart troubles included ):

1) Use moderate dosages. Keep in mind that you can get a great results just with 5 times more supra-physiological of Testosterone ( around 300mg/week ), training hard and keeping a perfect diet.
2) Don't overcome 8-12 weeks of total cycle period.
3) Take supplements to help your body to tolerate at best the AAS stress during cycle ( Fish oil, NAC, Vit B complex, baby-aspirin )
4) BLOOD WORK ! Before, immediately after you begin a cycle, at mid-cycle and after PCT. This is the most important part.
5) DIET. Eat at best you can and avoid simply sugar. The most control of your cycle you have is through diet. REMOVE ALL SODIUM !
6) Cardio. Blood has to flow as much as possible. So cardio, EVERYDAY.
7) Take a long pause between cycles to make your body resume its physiological hormonal balance.

These are the most important things you have to carve in your mind.

[Marsoc]

In brief: AAS affect the heart. BP, Lipids, Homocysteine, RBC, Increased Vascular Reactivity, Estrogens spikes are the all entities you have to fight for. The risk exists, there's a lot literature it about. The only way you have to lower the risks is use it with responsability, monitor your blood and take time to rest between cycles. Keep in my mind that more dosages and duration are higher and more you increase the risk to develop troubles. To have a good results it's not necessary to inject huge quantity of AAS: even 300mg/week of test with a good diet, could give you a good mass muscle increment. When you often heard tell stories about Body Builders which died or develop big heart troubles, in the majority of the cases is they did AAS abuse for a long term, neglecting the risks. Here there's a list of what you have to avoid to minimize the risks ( heart troubles included ):

1) Use moderate dosages. Keep in mind that you can get a great results just with 5 times more supra-physiological of Testosterone ( around 300mg/week ), training hard and keeping a perfect diet.
2) Don't overcome 8-12 weeks of total cycle period.
3) Take supplements to help your body to tolerate at best the AAS stress during cycle ( Fish oil, NAC, Vit B complex, baby-aspirin )
4) BLOOD WORK ! Before, immediately after you begin a cycle, at mid-cycle and after PCT. This is the most important part.
5) DIET. Eat at best you can and avoid simply sugar. The most control of your cycle you have is through diet. REMOVE ALL SODIUM !
6) Cardio. Blood has to flow as much as possible. So cardio, EVERYDAY.
7) Take a long pause between cycles to make your body resume its physiological hormonal balance.

These are the most important things you have to carve in your mind.

Do you mean a brand name sugar called "simply sugar " or ar should saying to simply avoid sugar lol...?seriously..

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Do you mean a brand name sugar called "simply sugar " or ar should saying to simply avoid sugar lol...?seriously..

avoid simple sugars

[devil-1986]

In brief: AAS affect the heart. BP, Lipids, Homocysteine, RBC, Increased Vascular Reactivity, Estrogens spikes are the all entities you have to fight for. The risk exists, there's a lot literature it about. The only way you have to lower the risks is use it with responsability, monitor your blood and take time to rest between cycles. Keep in my mind that more dosages and duration are higher and more you increase the risk to develop troubles. To have a good results it's not necessary to inject huge quantity of AAS: even 300mg/week of test with a good diet, could give you a good mass muscle increment. When you often heard tell stories about Body Builders which died or develop big heart troubles, in the majority of the cases is they did AAS abuse for a long term, neglecting the risks. Here there's a list of what you have to avoid to minimize the risks ( heart troubles included ):

1) Use moderate dosages. Keep in mind that you can get a great results just with 5 times more supra-physiological of Testosterone ( around 300mg/week ), training hard and keeping a perfect diet.
2) Don't overcome 8-12 weeks of total cycle period.
3) Take supplements to help your body to tolerate at best the AAS stress during cycle ( Fish oil, NAC, Vit B complex, baby-aspirin )
4) BLOOD WORK ! Before, immediately after you begin a cycle, at mid-cycle and after PCT. This is the most important part.
5) DIET. Eat at best you can and avoid simply sugar. The most control of your cycle you have is through diet. REMOVE ALL SODIUM !
6) Cardio. Blood has to flow as much as possible. So cardio, EVERYDAY.
7) Take a long pause between cycles to make your body resume its physiological hormonal balance.

These are the most important things you have to carve in your mind.

thank u bro, very nice and useful info , what is your idea about length of cycle ? is it best to do it between 4-6 week for minimize the risks ?

[Slacker78]

thank u bro, very nice and useful info , what is your idea about length of cycle ? is it best to do it between 4-6 week for minimize the risks ?

Less is the best. But it's true there are long esters which take effect after the first months. I prefer to stay in cycle for max 2 months using short esters as base ( Test prop for example ) . And give in these 2 months the best i can under evert aspect ( diet, cardio, training, supplements, blood work etc.. ). Dosages and times make the huge difference.

[devil-1986]

Less is the best. But it's true there are long esters which take effect after the first months. I prefer to stay in cycle for max 2 months using short esters as base ( Test prop for example ) . And give in these 2 months the best i can under evert aspect ( diet, cardio, training, supplements, blood work etc.. ). Dosages and times make the huge difference.

thanks again and what about baby aspirin during cycles ? dosage , time , duration ,..? have it any sides ?

[TestoSuper]

In brief: AAS affect the heart. BP, Lipids, Homocysteine, RBC, Increased Vascular Reactivity, Estrogens spikes are the all entities you have to fight for. The risk exists, there's a lot literature it about. The only way you have to lower the risks is use it with responsability, monitor your blood and take time to rest between cycles. Keep in my mind that more dosages and duration are higher and more you increase the risk to develop troubles. To have a good results it's not necessary to inject huge quantity of AAS: even 300mg/week of test with a good diet, could give you a good mass muscle increment. When you often heard tell stories about Body Builders which died or develop big heart troubles, in the majority of the cases is they did AAS abuse for a long term, neglecting the risks. Here there's a list of what you have to avoid to minimize the risks ( heart troubles included ):

1) Use moderate dosages. Keep in mind that you can get a great results just with 5 times more supra-physiological of Testosterone ( around 300mg/week ), training hard and keeping a perfect diet.
2) Don't overcome 8-12 weeks of total cycle period.
3) Take supplements to help your body to tolerate at best the AAS stress during cycle ( Fish oil, NAC, Vit B complex, baby-aspirin )
4) BLOOD WORK ! Before, immediately after you begin a cycle, at mid-cycle and after PCT. This is the most important part.
5) DIET. Eat at best you can and avoid simply sugar. The most control of your cycle you have is through diet. REMOVE ALL SODIUM !
6) Cardio. Blood has to flow as much as possible. So cardio, EVERYDAY.
7) Take a long pause between cycles to make your body resume its physiological hormonal balance.

These are the most important things you have to carve in your mind.

Very useful information, thanks.
essentially I agree with you that the abuse, in quantities and times, is harmful ...until now I have always respected your every point mentioned above.. (maybe except in dosages, I hold 500/600 mg a week test)
What is the NAC exactly?
What function does the baby-aspirin as supplement?
how can I completely remove the sodium?

[Slacker78]

Very useful information, thanks.
essentially I agree with you that the abuse, in quantities and times, is harmful ...until now I have always respected your every point mentioned above.. (maybe except in dosages, I hold 500/600 mg a week test)
What is the NAC exactly?
What function does the baby-aspirin as supplement?
how can I completely remove the sodium?

NAC is L-Acetylcysteine. It's a glutatione precursor. It helps liver to keep its healthy state, lower homocysteine level and protect the kidneys. It's used from 600mg/ED to 2400/ED ( the latter dosage is suggested just for steroids which are heavy for liver as 17-Alpha etc.. ) for a simple cycle around 700-800mg of total gear, 1200mg/ED is enough.

Baby-Aspirin ( about 80-100mg/ED ) inhibits tromboxanes production and so platetes aggregation. Steroids increase tromboxanes production causing an increasing of their receptors ( A2 ). This might lead to blood hypercoagulation that is not a good thing, especially when Hematocrit is high. Aspirin, blocks tromboxanes production, making blood smoother and fluid. 80mg/ED is enough for dosages discussed. But take a gastro-protector because aspirin could damage your stomac. I use Sucralfate and IPP at low dosages as i have gastritis. Use it for all cycle life-time, PCT included, but keep an eye on your stomac.

You can't totally remove Sodium but you have to look to limit it as much as possible. High Sodium is dangerous, especially under steroids cycle. Don't use it in your diet as much as possible, it's simply. And remove all simply sugars... ALL. You diet is the first defense line when you're on cycle.

Hope this helps.

[TestoSuper]

NAC is L-Acetylcysteine. It's a glutatione precursor. It helps liver to keep its healthy state, lower homocysteine level and protect the kidneys. It's used from 600mg/ED to 2400/ED ( the latter dosage is suggested just for steroids which are heavy for liver as 17-Alpha etc.. ) for a simple cycle around 700-800mg of total gear, 1200mg/ED is enough.

Baby-Aspirin ( about 80-100mg/ED ) inhibits tromboxanes production and so platetes aggregation. Steroids increase tromboxanes production causing an increasing of their receptors ( A2 ). This might lead to blood hypercoagulation that is not a good thing, especially when Hematocrit is high. Aspirin, blocks tromboxanes production, making blood smoother and fluid. 80mg/ED is enough for dosages discussed. But take a gastro-protector because aspirin could damage your stomac. I use Sucralfate and IPP at low dosages as i have gastritis. Use it for all cycle life-time, PCT included, but keep an eye on your stomac.

You can't totally remove Sodium but you have to look to limit it as much as possible. High Sodium is dangerous, especially under steroids cycle. Don't use it in your diet as much as possible, it's simply. And remove all simply sugars... ALL. You diet is the first defense line when you're on cycle.

Hope this helps.

Perfect all clear.
I would like to ask your opinion about cabergoline .
I cycled in the past 2 times deca durabolin without cabergoline , but the recovery has always been very difficult and long (after 3/4 months of the end pct still very low testosterone values ​​) I believe this is due to progesterone of deca .
Next winter in my bulking cycle would still stack the deca ( in my opinion a very good steroid with marked and numerous benefits and very safe , apart from this drawback of the strong suppression dell'hpta ) then I would use it absolutly together with testosterone ... in your opinion, if I associate cabergoline ( 0.5 mg 2 times a week ) can be less suppression of the HPTA and then have faster and better recovery ? have you had direct experience in this?

[Slacker78]

Perfect all clear.
I would like to ask your opinion about cabergoline .
I cycled in the past 2 times deca durabolin without cabergoline , but the recovery has always been very difficult and long (after 3/4 months of the end pct still very low testosterone values ​​) I believe this is due to progesterone of deca .
Next winter in my bulking cycle would still stack the deca ( in my opinion a very good steroid with marked and numerous benefits and very safe , apart from this drawback of the strong suppression dell'hpta ) then I would use it absolutly together with testosterone ... in your opinion, if I associate cabergoline ( 0.5 mg 2 times a week ) can be less suppression of the HPTA and then have faster and better recovery ? have you had direct experience in this?

Never used cabergoline till now. I used Deca in several cycles and my recovery was very rapid. I always stopped DECA - in a 12 weeks cycle - 2 weeks before the end of cycle. And if i stacked it with another long Test ester as Enanthate, i stopped both at 10 week and continued with Test Prop of 100mg/ED for the remaning 2 weeks, before start PCT. I think this is more effectiveness protocol. Futher, regardless subjectivity of each one, my question is always the same: did you used HCG while on cycle ??????? LH production usually, starts very quick; are the tests that often, have some problem to reply to stimulus of the latter. Preserve your tests trofism is CRUCIAL to recovery. And this is because my PCTs after DECA cycle, were rapid. No matter how your HPTA axis is shutted down: your tests are the most important thing you have to preserve in this case, because you can product tons of LH, but if tests don't reply, it's useless.

Hope this helps.

[Mr.BB]

Hello everyone , I wanted to ask you something very important .
You deoften hear ( and read online too ) that the long-term testosterone use can lead to abnormalities of the heart , but this is real?? ie , the left ventricular enlargement is due to a direct effect of testosterone as many claim ( I do not think so ) , or is it due to a blood pressure increase ( more realistic ) ?
If we control the blood pressure and the Lipid panel (Hdl and Ldl) can we prevent any form of damage to the heart, right ?
Sorry but I continue to read this bad thing and I would like some reassurance drabout.
Thanks

Long term testosterone usage is TRT, and so the dosage should be as low as possible to mimic natural levels.
Proper TRT has opposite effect on heart and circulatory system, what is dangerous is to have low levels of testosterone, I can link several studies for this.

Of course if you abuse testosterone and steroids you can have this and several other life threatning problems.

Heart enlargement is more prevalent due to genetic causes and high competition athletes. For example several top marathon runners have this problem, highly doubt they were abusing testosterone.

[AR's King Silabolin]

I agree with slacker and bb.

I want to add, bodybuilders who die before their time, often die from heartattack. The heartattack is not from an enlarged heart. but from narrow veins/arteries in the heart. Triglycerides, high ldl, low hdl and high blood pressure are riskfactors.
Therefore i think its important to avoid high bloodpresure (sodium/potasium ratio) and to eat lots of arteriecleaning foodtypes. Also drink lots of water and dont be afraid of N0s, as they lower BP. Larginine is actually real good for bloodpressure and your cardiovascular system.
Also do cardio, specially when on as cardio can help on bad cholestrol and better all your cardiovascular system.

[Slacker78]

I agree with slacker and bb.

I want to add, bodybuilders who die before their time, often die from heartattack. The heartattack is not from an enlarged heart. but from narrow veins/arteries in the heart. Triglycerides, high ldl, low hdl and high blood pressure are riskfactors.
Therefore i think its important to avoid high bloodpresure (sodium/potasium ratio) and to eat lots of arteriecleaning foodtypes. Also drink lots of water and dont be afraid of N0s, as they lower BP. Larginine is actually real good for bloodpressure and your cardiovascular system.
Also do cardio, specially when on as cardio can help on bad cholestrol and better all your cardiovascular system.

Yes, agree. L-Arginine is linked with NO conversion but ONLY to higher dosages ( many studies proven it ) and it could be hard for a man handle them without bad sides. Anyway, i've experimented by myself that in some individuals, this could be work well ( for example me ) as with 5 gr./ED, my blood pressure lowered. I suppose its effectiveness could vary from and individual to another one.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Yes, agree. L-Arginine is linked with NO conversion but ONLY to higher dosages ( many studies proven it ) and it could be hard for a man handle them without bad sides. Anyway, i've experimented by myself that in some individuals, this could be work well ( for example me ) as with 5 gr./ED, my blood pressure lowered. I suppose its effectiveness could vary from and individual to another one.

I have an extremely trusted source (James Tiny West on youtube) who says its perfect to drop 12 g before every workout.
I have done this the last weeks and the only sides i have experienced is a little more liquid shit (sorry for the details) the day after. No bloatfeeling or stomach discomfort.
+ All the goodies ofcourse.

[Slacker78]

I have an extremely trusted source (James Tiny West on youtube) who says its perfect to drop 12 g before every workout.
I have done this the last weeks and the only sides i have experienced is a little more liquid shit (sorry for the details) the day after. No bloatfeeling or stomach discomfort.
+ All the goodies ofcourse.

That's good. If you tolerate it, god bless you. For me it's hard as i have gastritis and L-Arginine has an acid PH... so my stomac could be anger...

[Slacker78]

In every case, the most important things has to be scrupulously observed are RBC/HCT, LDL/HDL and Homocysteine. The latter is understimated but it could be a silent risk of potential heart attack. Further, androgens increase Tromboxanes A2 receptors density which is strongly related to imparied vascular reactivity. For these reasons, i suppose a baby-aspirin ( which blocks Tromboxanes synthesis ), is a MUST during an AAS cycle. As you can see, there's a lot of things to keep on eye regard cardiovascular system and it enough to neglect just one, to leave an open door for heart damages and vascular system.

[hammerheart]

In every case, the most important things has to be scrupulously observed are RBC/HCT, LDL/HDL and Homocysteine. The latter is understimated but it could be a silent risk of potential heart attack. Further, androgens increase Tromboxanes A2 receptors density which is strongly related to imparied vascular reactivity. For these reasons, i suppose a baby-aspirin ( which blocks Tromboxanes synthesis ), is a MUST during an AAS cycle. As you can see, there's a lot of things to keep on eye regard cardiovascular system and it enough to neglect just one, to leave an open door for heart damages and vascular system.

Elevated homocysteine it's not an issue on its own, rather an indicator for folate/b12 deficiency, either due to poor diet or enzymes polymorphism. These are common in the med basin.

[Slacker78]

Elevated homocysteine it's not an issue on its own, rather an indicator for folate/b12 deficiency, either due to poor diet or enzymes polymorphism. These are common in the med basin.

AAS could raise HCY levels by themselves in absence of folate/B12 deficiency. Elevated HCY level effects are well known on cardiovascular system.

[hammerheart]

AAS could raise HCY levels by themselves in absence of folate/B12 deficiency. Elevated HCY level effects are well known on cardiovascular system.

Research on HCY is still ongoing. Anyway I found this one study on chronic AAS ab(use).

Homocysteine induced cardiovascular events: a consequence of long term anabolic‐androgenic steroid (AAS) abuse

It kind of supports your statement, and is a good reason to recommend remethylation factors (methylcobalamin, folate, B6) to anyone on cycle.

Those will help manage HCY.


Also remember - blood values only tell part of the story. You can have normal B9/B12 readings but elevated HCY is often indicative of intracellular MB12 deficiency.

[numbere]

Therefore i think its important to avoid high bloodpresure (sodium/potasium ratio) and to eat lots of arteriecleaning foodtypes.

Your sodium intake has little effect on blood pressure.

Cochrane did a massive review of 34 studies which examined the effect of salt restriction on reducing blood pressure.

They found that restricting sodium intake only reduced blood pressure by a few mm Hg on average.

If you read the studies done on arginine it takes 30g taken IV to produce vasodilation.

When arginine is taken orally it has a 70% absorption rate.

This means you'd have to take at least 43g orally for vasodilation to occur.

If you want to have blood flow increases similar to arginine IV infusion you'd have better results manipulating insulin.

James Vest has no idea what he's talking about.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

James Vest has no idea what he's talking about.

But he's on the intrawebs!!!!

[TestoSuper]

I agree with slacker and bb.

I want to add, bodybuilders who die before their time, often die from heartattack. The heartattack is not from an enlarged heart. but from narrow veins/arteries in the heart. Triglycerides, high ldl, low hdl and high blood pressure are riskfactors.
Therefore i think its important to avoid high bloodpresure (sodium/potasium ratio) and to eat lots of arteriecleaning foodtypes. Also drink lots of water and dont be afraid of N0s, as they lower BP. Larginine is actually real good for bloodpressure and your cardiovascular system.
Also do cardio, specially when on as cardio can help on bad cholestrol and better all your cardiovascular system.

I totally agree.
I have ever pressure under control ( 120/75 last measurement ) do a lot of cardio and lipid profile is in order and ever under control

[Euroholic]

Yes it is possible. You are adding synthetic hormones into your body. But to me My life motto has always been don't fear the reaper. Im not a buddhist so i will only live once. If its worth doing its worth over doing moderation is for fags.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Yes it is possible. You are adding synthetic hormones into your body. But to me My life motto has always been don't fear the reaper. Im not a buddhist so i will only live once. If its worth doing its worth over doing moderation is for fags.

Better to live 40 years as a lion than 60 years as a sheep!

[Mr.BB]

Yes it is possible. You are adding synthetic hormones into your body. But to me My life motto has always been don't fear the reaper. Im not a buddhist so i will only live once. If its worth doing its worth over doing moderation is for fags.

You sound like a 15 year old...

[AR's King Silabolin]

You sound like a 15 year old...

Yeah and your avatar def tells you are under no circumstances a horny teen.....lol

[Euroholic]

You sound like a 15 year old...

Its better to be a King for a day then a peasant for a lifetime mate. Nothing wrong with a positive outlook on life.

[Slacker78]

Yes it is possible. You are adding synthetic hormones into your body. But to me My life motto has always been don't fear the reaper. Im not a buddhist so i will only live once. If its worth doing its worth over doing moderation is for fags.

The problem are not synthetic homones... but the DOSAGES AND TIME

[Marsoc]

The problem are not synthetic homones... but the DOSAGES AND TIME

Hey slacker I sent you a private message. I have a similar look at what I want a cycle to be about moderate gains etc. . Trying to gain some Intel here so I figured I'd get your perspective with my specific goals and precautions and health concerns. Thanks

[macmathews]

Yes it is possible. You are adding synthetic hormones into your body. But to me My life motto has always been don't fear the reaper. Im not a buddhist so i will only live once. If its worth doing its worth over doing moderation is for fags.

Says every young and/or healthy person..
When the reaper comes knocking the song and dance will change

Mac

[Slacker78]

I think nobody wants to die. I'm afraid of death and it's easy to tell when you think it's so far from you. This is why, my AAS use will be always limited to little gains. Not a Lion, it's enough to be a panther for me.

[Euroholic]

I think nobody wants to die. I'm afraid of death and it's easy to tell when you think it's so far from you. This is why, my AAS use will be always limited to little gains. Not a Lion, it's enough to be a panther for me.

Everybody dies bull but not everybody lives. I don't condone/recommend others to do anything. I just do what makes me happy

[Mr.BB]

Thanks god forum has no sound, 2 italians discussing would be noisy as hell.

[Slacker78]

Thanks god forum has no sound, 2 italians discussing would be noisy as hell.

This observation, hurts your ( hypothetical ) intelligence Mr.BB

[Mr.BB]

This observation, hurts your ( hypothetical ) intelligence Mr.BB

Yeah, yeah, yeah... you know its true lol

Well, have to say the same for americans lmao.

[MuscleScience]

I would be more worried about long term couch and sugar abuse than steroids as far as heart health goes.

[MuscleScience]

Your sodium intake has little effect on blood pressure.

Cochrane did a massive review of 34 studies which examined the effect of salt restriction on reducing blood pressure.

They found that restricting sodium intake only reduced blood pressure by a few mm Hg on average.

If you read the studies done on arginine it takes 30g taken IV to produce vasodilation.

When arginine is taken orally it has a 70% absorption rate.

This means you'd have to take at least 43g orally for vasodilation to occur.

If you want to have blood flow increases similar to arginine IV infusion you'd have better results manipulating insulin.

James Vest has no idea what he's talking about.

Will it make erection strong like bull?

[kelkel]

Will it make erection strong like bull?