Getting Deep, I'm Sold on it...

[Undecided09]

First, let me admit that, while for the most part I always stick to the basic bodybuilding theory, Form over Load all day everyday....

However, my legs have always been very strong, and luckily have responded extremely well, they are my best bodypart. Regardless, I sometimes succumbed to the desire to load the bar up super heavy and push as much weight as I can. I would throw 405 on and get a pretty good range of motion, but certainly not ass to the floor.

Today I decided to finally swallow my pride, put on a load that would allow me to get DEEP into the whole, with reps between 8-12.

I have potentially never had a better leg workout in my life. The pump was remarkable, and the soreness is deeper than ever.

To all new guys, and even some vets who still might not get that deep on their squats, if your body can take it, getting deep into the hole, even if it means sucking up your pride a little bit, is clearly a better way to spur overall leg growth/train, which really is the purpose of a squat, overall leg mass.

9

[RoaringMad Mac]

I totally agree.

[Jfew44]

I had the same thing happen to me last week. I cut the weight I usually do in half and took my squats deeper than I ever have. My legs were sore for 5 days where they are usually only sore for a day or two. Maybe I'll do it more often...

[Ronnie Rowland]

Unless someone has a bad lower back or a bum knee, I absolutely agree.

Full-range-motion builds muscle!!

[Undecided09]

Unless someone has a bad lower back or a bum knee, I absolutely agree.

Full-range-motion builds muscle!!

And the purpose of my thread was, WHY SHOULD LEGS BE ANY DIFFERENT!!!

I will admit to enjoy feeling like a bit a of a badass when I throw 405-415 on the bar and hit it for 4-7 reps, but as far as overall muscle stimulation and incorporation goes, its no comparison that getting deep into the hole recruits every muscle fiber in ur thigh, and that is what makes squats so great. IF YOU DON'T GET DEEP, YOUR MISSING OUT ON THE BEAUTY OF THE EXERCISE. I found that out once I decided to put away my ego.

9

[Narkissos]

IF YOU DON'T GET DEEP, YOUR MISSING OUT ON THE BEAUTY OF THE EXERCISE.

Blanket statement.

The ROM prioritized depends on what's required by the individual.

Sub-parallel is ham/glute-dominant...and it also places less overall load on the quad.

"Less overall load" as compared to squatting to 85-89 degree knee flexion.

I've switched from parallel to ass-to-ground...and guess what?

Overall thigh mass decreased.

Teardrop size increased marginally...glutes/hams got thicker.

But for an already posterior-chained-dominated bodybuilder, this did my physique zero benefit.

In conclusion... there is no 'best' manner in which to train ANY bodypart

'best' for a noob would be cyclic inclusion of all ROMs.

Or..better yet, varying ROMs from work-out to workout.

An intermediate would be 'best' served by including both partial and full ROMs within the same workout.

For myself, I've gotten to the point where instead of using multiple movements.. I use the same exercise but with modifications.

e.g.

I leg press to warm-up my thighs; glutes; hams; knees and hip.

Then i squat to parallel heavily to overload the muscle complex.

upon completion of my target sets, I squat ass-to-ground to isolate/stimulate the teardrop region.

A sidenote: Modifying an exercise proven to work makes more sense than varying exercises.

Variety is the curse of the bored.

-CNS

[RoaringMad Mac]

For years I have trained legs in a cycle within the squats parameter:

1 month doing Full ass to ground squats
1 month doing Medium rep squats
1 month doing Quarter squats.

Tom Platz did this for years.

I have noticed over the years people who just prioritize ass to calve squats ended up having some sort of knee pain. Don't know if this was just genetic or they were going way to heavy on the leg extension. I have never had this problem Never had any type of knee problem ( knock on wood).

[Narkissos]

'best' for a noob would be cyclic inclusion of all ROMs.

^^

For years I have trained legs in a cycle within the squats parameter:

1 month doing Full ass to ground squats
1 month doing Medium rep squats
1 month doing Quarter squats.

Exactly.

Kudos to you buddy.

Tom Platz did this for years.

Great example.

I remember he also said he sometimes trained all ROMs in one set.

i.e. when he failed ass-to-ground he continued with parallel..

Upon failing @ parallel..he continued with 1/4 squats.

...and upon failing there..he continued with barely perceptible movement.

THAT is the 'best' way to stimulate all the fibers.

Each muscle has dual points of insertions.. this should be factored in when building a plan of attack.

-CNS

[rockinred]

I was reading this and was going to chime in that you might of had a good base developement that was lacking the development from ass to ground.. now that you are doing that you are hitting an area that you lacked from before... but, narkissos pretty much covered it... Most of the time I prefer to work in pyramid type of structure on squats... when working weight up I do the following.

135 - ass to ground warm up.
225 - ass to ground wam up.
315 - lil lower than parallel... very painful.
405 - close to parallel really heavy depends on how feel.
either go up from here or stay for about 2-3 more sets.
315 - parellel
225 - legs together parallel ass to ground..hits front hard

maybe this can add a variation to work out too.. hits the whole mama jamma.

[naturalsux]

I was reading this and was going to chime in that you might of had a good base developement that was lacking the development from ass to ground.. now that you are doing that you are hitting an area that you lacked from before... but, narkissos pretty much covered it... Most of the time I prefer to work in pyramid type of structure on squats... when working weight up I do the following.

135 - ass to ground warm up.
225 - ass to ground wam up.
315 - lil lower than parallel... very painful.
405 - close to parallel really heavy depends on how feel.
either go up from here or stay for about 2-3 more sets.
315 - parellel
225 - legs together parallel ass to ground..hits front hard

maybe this can add a variation to work out too.. hits the whole mama jamma.

i like that idea too. good info rockinred.

[Narkissos]

I was reading this and was going to chime in that you might of had a good base developement that was lacking the development from ass to ground.. now that you are doing that you are hitting an area that you lacked from before... but, narkissos pretty much covered it... Most of the time I prefer to work in pyramid type of structure on squats... when working weight up I do the following.

135 - ass to ground warm up.
225 - ass to ground wam up.
315 - lil lower than parallel... very painful.
405 - close to parallel really heavy depends on how feel.
either go up from here or stay for about 2-3 more sets.
315 - parellel
225 - legs together parallel ass to ground..hits front hard

maybe this can add a variation to work out too.. hits the whole mama jamma.

Look cool.

A great training schema which allows for easy manipulation of ROM is GVT I've found.

Check it out if you're inclined

-CNS

[Narkissos]

Variety is the curse of the bored.

-CNS

"The easily bored" I should say.

-CNS

[Ronnie Rowland]

For years I have trained legs in a cycle within the squats parameter:

1 month doing Full ass to ground squats
1 month doing Medium rep squats
1 month doing Quarter squats.

Tom Platz did this for years.

I have noticed over the years people who just prioritize ass to calve squats ended up having some sort of knee pain. Don't know if this was just genetic or they were going way to heavy on the leg extension. I have never had this problem Never had any type of knee problem ( knock on wood).

I believe it's both your genetics and the fact you did not always do squats to the ground. My defintion of full-range-squats is going parallel. I should have made that a bit clearer in my first post to UNDECIDED because I am not a big fan of squatting all the way to the ground because its too hard on the knees and lower back. My definition of full-range-overhead press for the deltoods if bring the bar to the ear lobe. Going too deep can put undue stress on the rotator cuff.

I'd also like to point out the genetic factor here. Most on this board may not realize it but RoaringMadMac played college football for LSU. Obviously he was on the line. Now here the deal-this man once held powerlifting records for the squat, bench press and dead-lift in the state of Mississippi..I can vouch he's never used steroids. My point being his joints (knees included) are built to handle more stress than most of us.

I see no need in doing anything but parallel squats as long as one periodized their sets with bouts of low volume, medium volume and high volume to take the stress away from the joints. Pretty much the same as the 3 training cycles mentioned above but done in a different fashion (PRIME/BLAST/CRUISE).

Mac, what where those power-lifting numbers? I know it was more than most of us could do with steroids..

[Ronnie Rowland]

Blanket statement.

The ROM prioritized depends on what's required by the individual.

Sub-parallel is ham/glute-dominant...and it also places less overall load on the quad.

"Less overall load" as compared to squatting to 85-89 degree knee flexion.

I've switched from parallel to ass-to-ground...and guess what?

Overall thigh mass decreased.

Teardrop size increased marginally...glutes/hams got thicker.

But for an already posterior-chained-dominated bodybuilder, this did my physique zero benefit.

In conclusion... there is no 'best' manner in which to train ANY bodypart

'best' for a noob would be cyclic inclusion of all ROMs.

Or..better yet, varying ROMs from work-out to workout.

An intermediate would be 'best' served by including both partial and full ROMs within the same workout.

For myself, I've gotten to the point where instead of using multiple movements.. I use the same exercise but with modifications.

e.g.

I leg press to warm-up my thighs; glutes; hams; knees and hip.

Then i squat to parallel heavily to overload the muscle complex.

upon completion of my target sets, I squat ass-to-ground to isolate/stimulate the teardrop region.

A sidenote: Modifying an exercise proven to work makes more sense than varying exercises.

Variety is the curse of the bored.

-CNS

This is a good post Narkissos!

I'll throw in my two cents here. I do not believe one will lose guad size by simply squatting to the ground as opposed to parallel even though the glutes/hams get thicker. Muscle mass is hard to build, but it is very easy to maintain. Every ounce of quad muscle you gain by doing parallel squats will be maintained with ground squats. It can be compared to sits ups vs crunches. Both movements build the abs but sit ups bring the psoas (back muscles) into play a lot more just as ground squats works the glutes/hams a lot harder. That said, if crunches can be to build the abs, situps will maintain them even though they hit the lower back much harder.

I agree 100% that modifying an exercise proven to work makes a lot more sense than varying exercises when bodybuilding. I've never understood why people feel the need to change exercises unless it's causing joint pain. I believe the best way to modify those exercises is through set manipulation and using proper periodization, not using different ranges of motion per se.

[Narkissos]

Muscle mass is hard to build, but it is very easy to maintain.

I don't agree.

Growth is a adaptive response initiated by a stimuli.

The body lays down new proteinaceous tissue to basically as a defensive response.

Remove the stimuli, and the body will attempt to revert to the least metabolically expensive state of being (re: attempting to reinstate the 'comfort' zone... 'homeostasis' if you will)

Every ounce of quad muscle you gain by doing parallel squats will be maintained with ground squats. It can be compared to sits ups vs crunches. Both movements build the abs but sit ups bring the psoas (back muscles) into play a lot more just as ground squats works the glutes/hams a lot harder. That said, if crunches can be to build the abs, situps will maintain them even though they hit the lower back much harder.

Bad examples.

That's like comparing a isolation bicep exercise like concentration curls to a barbell curl.

Of course the barbell curl will maintain muscle mass at the bare minimum.

It's potential for overload is higher.

I agree 100% that modifying an exercise proven to work makes a lot more sense than varying exercises when bodybuilding. I've never understood why people feel the need to change exercises unless it's causing joint pain. I believe the best way to modify those exercises is through set manipulation and using proper periodization, not using different ranges of motion per se.

Now this i can relate to.

-CNS

[RoaringMad Mac]

I believe it's both your genetics and the fact you did not always do squats to the ground. My defintion of full-range-squats is going parallel. I should have made that a bit clearer in my first post to UNDECIDED because I am not a big fan of squatting all the way to the ground because its too hard on the knees and lower back. My definition of full-range-overhead press for the deltoods if bring the bar to the ear lobe. Going too deep can put undue stress on the rotator cuff.

I'd also like to point out the genetic factor here. Most on this board may not realize it but RoaringMadMac played college football for LSU. Obviously he was on the line. Now here the deal-this man once held powerlifting records for the squat, bench press and dead-lift in the state of Mississippi..I can vouch he's never used steroids. My point being his joints (knees included) are built to handle more stress than most of us.

I see no need in doing anything but parallel squats as long as one periodized their sets with bouts of low volume, medium volume and high volume to take the stress away from the joints. Pretty much the same as the 3 training cycles mentioned above but done in a different fashion (PRIME/BLAST/CRUISE).

Mac, what where those power-lifting numbers? I know it was more than most of us could do with steroids..

Maybe I should have clarified some things. I do believe for most that sticking in the parellel area is the best. I did cycle this way when I was training with a friend of mine who was a pro bodybuilder. I was Powerlifting at the time doing meets and squatted parellel because this is what was required.

I definately believe in what Ronnie was stating. Some of us can get away with squatting ass to calve squats if our genetics allows it. Some can't. I have seen where they continually go heavier and then their form starts to get jerpordized when and this is when the their knees really start taking a beating.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Ronnie You know I usuually try to remain modest but the numbers I list here are my all time best lifts and this was in 1998.

Squat 1,010 lbs Mississippi record at the time.
Deadlift: 865lbs Ms record at the time.
Bench Press: 610lbs Record at the time.

Even over the last couple of years I have stopped doing flat barbell bench press I still occasionally put on 405 and try to get at least 10 reps.

I stay relatively heavy on squats The last highest rep scheme I went for parellel squats was a little over 500 for 11 reps.

I am trying to loose weight now

[Ronnie Rowland]

I don't agree.

Growth is a adaptive response initiated by a stimuli.

The body lays down new proteinaceous tissue to basically as a defensive response.

Remove the stimuli, and the body will attempt to revert to the least metabolically expensive state of being (re: attempting to reinstate the 'comfort' zone... 'homeostasis' if you will)



Bad examples.

That's like comparing a isolation bicep exercise like concentration curls to a barbell curl.

Of course the barbell curl will maintain muscle mass at the bare minimum.

It's potential for overload is higher.




Now this i can relate to.

-CNS

LOL..I was pretty tired last night when I made that post. Let me try and simplify it a bit by saying-I've never witnessed anyone losing quad size by squatting down to the ground as opposed to squatting parallel, even though the glutes/hams do come into play more. If that were the case, then what purpose would it serve to train in monthly cycles doing different ROM'S with squats??? You would lose quad size during ground squats, only to regain back what you lost during the month paralell squats where incorporated. In my eyes this would invoke a viscious cycle of losing quad size then regaining it back. Other than that, I think we have a meeting of the minds.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Maybe I should have clarified some things. I do believe for most that sticking in the parellel area is the best. I did cycle this way when I was training with a friend of mine who was a pro bodybuilder. I was Powerlifting at the time doing meets and squatted parellel because this is what was required.

I definately believe in what Ronnie was stating. Some of us can get away with squatting ass to calve squats if our genetics allows it. Some can't. I have seen where they continually go heavier and then their form starts to get jerpordized when and this is when the their knees really start taking a beating.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Ronnie You know I usuually try to remain modest but the numbers I list here are my all time best lifts and this was in 1998.

Squat 1,010 lbs Mississippi record at the time.
Deadlift: 865lbs Ms record at the time.
Bench Press: 610lbs Record at the time.

Even over the last couple of years I have stopped doing flat barbell bench press I still occasionally put on 405 and try to get at least 10 reps.

I stay relatively heavy on squats The last highest rep scheme I went for parellel squats was a little over 500 for 11 reps.

I am trying to loose weight now

Mac, a legit 1,010 lb squat without the use of steroids is stupid crazy...LOL...

[Mr Tick]

I have never went sub parallel on my squats. I think i might try to incorporate them in my workouts. When yall are doing this do you so them with the bar on your shoulders or in the front position? Just wondering because on shoulders im thinking that you might be a little off balance but dunno maby just my thinking. Also how deep are yall going? I know the expression is ass to calfs but do you really touch or just get really close and how is the foot position? Shoulder with or closer with feet stright out?


Thanks

[lotaquestions]

im glad i found this thread, i was starting to think that i was the only person left that did true squats. ive known any thing but parallel. im a traveling salesman so i work out at alot of different gyms 2-3 a week, i get tiered of seeing a 180 pound juicer load 400+ on a bar and go down 3 inches and look around like he is doing something

[Ronnie Rowland]

im glad i found this thread, i was starting to think that i was the only person left that did true squats. ive known any thing but parallel. im a traveling salesman so i work out at alot of different gyms 2-3 a week, i get tiered of seeing a 180 pound juicer load 400+ on a bar and go down 3 inches and look around like he is doing something

LOL..This is so true!

[2bshredded]

It seems to be a macho thing, I'm guilty....I'm 48 so I don't lift anymore for the max.....I just try to keep my body from wilting away.
It's the only way to go.....slow and deep. Yeah that's what she said too!

[Mr Tick]

Bump for a answer to my ?

[lotaquestions]

when i am squating i keep the bar across my shoulders and go parallel(heavy weight) i like to look in the mirrot b/c when my quads dissapear i know that i am at 90. wider stance with toes slightly pointed outword

if im going lower than 90 i put the bar across the front of my shoulders and narrow up my stance (light weight) and go as low as possible (but on calves).