Politics as usual: another bad sign for world peace; Obama cowers to pro-Israelis

[NightWolf]

You do not know that in Muslim lands nowadays, religious Muslims are heavily persecuted.

this made me

Been in turkey 3 times, and in tunisa 1 time.

[Kratos]

this made me

Been in turkey 3 times, and in tunisa 1 time.

no kidding, I laughed too
I don't know what he's talking about.

[Dinosaur]

Originally Posted by BuffedGuy
You do not know that in Muslim lands nowadays, religious Muslims are heavily persecuted.

this made me

Been in turkey 3 times, and in tunisa 1 time.

the statement said by buff is very true. practicing muslims are often or i should say most of the time are tortured by dictator leaders or governements, and this is no a joke. they are very afraid of them to control any majority party or endorse any opponent.
you said that you have visited tunisia. let me ask u a question, have you ever seen a president who gets elected for last 25 yrs without getting beaten up by no opponent. that's Mr zeen alabideen the president of tunisia the champ that should tell you something about his polocies. I heard he's ganna be the king in the next term or so.

[Kratos]

the statement said by buff is very true. practicing muslims are often or i should say most of the time are tortured by dictator leaders or governements, and this is no a joke. they are very afraid of them to control any majority party or endorse any opponent.
you said that you have visited tunisia. let me ask u a question, have you ever seen a president who gets elected for last 25 yrs without getting beaten up by no opponent. that's Mr zeen alabideen the president of tunisia the champ that should tell you something about his polocies. I heard he's ganna be the king in the next term or so.

I'm not sure what you mean. The constitution declares Islam as the official state religion and requires the President to be Muslim. It's a 99% Muslim country.

In 1948 there were 105k jews living there. Now there are virtually none...who's being persicuted?

[BuffedGuy]

In 1948 there were 105k jews living there. Now there are virtually none...who's being persicuted?

You have such a simplistic understanding of things. Let's say that Jews were persecuted there. How does that disprove that practicing Muslims are persecuted there as well? Wow, you really have no logical thinking skills. Again, due to your ignorance, you are unable to understand nuances in the Muslim world.

[Kratos]

You have such a simplistic understanding of things. Let's say that Jews were persecuted there. How does that disprove that practicing Muslims are persecuted there as well? Wow, you really have no logical thinking skills. Again, due to your ignorance, you are unable to understand nuances in the Muslim world.

Let's not say they were persecuted for the sake of argument. They were, and the gvmt was used as an aid to do so. After 1956, the new Muslim government eliminated the Jewish Rabbinical tribunal and Jewish community councils, destroying the Jewish quarter of Tunis. After the Six-Day War in 1967, Muslims laid waste to the Great Synagogue of Tunis, leaving the only community left on the island of Djerba. Most of them were forced from their homeland to Israel.

Can you further explain this persecution of Muslims as I'm trying to understand. I'm not totally close minded, I'm interested.

[amcon]

You have such a simplistic understanding of things. Let's say that Jews were persecuted there. How does that disprove that practicing Muslims are persecuted there as well? Wow, you really have no logical thinking skills. Again, due to your ignorance, you are unable to understand nuances in the Muslim world.

dont get me started with this crap... what is good for the goose is good for the gander!! if you want to play that game - you just gave israel the right to fire back...

answer softly cause i am trust me!!!

[Dinosaur]

I'm not sure what you mean. The constitution declares Islam as the official state religion and requires the President to be Muslim. It's a 99% Muslim country.

In 1948 there were 105k jews living there. Now there are virtually none...who's being persicuted?

yes that's what u see on the paper and that's what most of those tyrant leaders claim, but when it comes to virtue and practicing its very diffrent.
small example, my cousin smokes, drinks and party but when ramadan comes he fast. so how would you fit him in those categories according to ur judging.

[Kratos]

yes that's what u see on the paper and that's what most of those tyrant leaders claim, but when it comes to virtue and practicing its very diffrent.
small example, my cousin smokes, drinks and party but when ramadan comes he fast. so how would you fit him in those categories according to ur judging.

but they aren't stopping him from not smoking, drinking or partying
so where is the opression?

[Dinosaur]

but they aren't stopping him from not smoking, drinking or partying
so where is the opression?

Kratos, I am not quite sure what mean by saying stopping him...
as well as the opression thing. could u explain plz.

[Kratos]

Kratos, I am not quite sure what mean by saying stopping him...
as well as the opression thing. could u explain plz.

What I'm saying is he is not forced to drink smoke or party, that is his choice. He has departed from the religion of his own free will, not because someone made him do it.

[BuffedGuy]

I didn't say all muslims want the genocide of jews. I said when it comes to Israel the Muslim world as a whole will accept nothing less then total Muslim control, which will end in either conversion/dispersion/or genocide.

And I am telling you that you have no right to speak for the Muslims. Yes, in your mind's eye the Muslims are blood-thirsty savages who could only want this and nothing else. But unfortunately for you, they have done polls on this matter, and the vast majority of the Muslims and Palestinians want peace with Israel. They do, however, want a fair peace, and what constitutes a fair peace, would be to go back to the 1967 borders or the 1947 ones. This is the general sentiment in the Muslim world.

You can't keep saying otherwise.

I say this because that's the ultimate fate of Jews in current Muslim nations. Do you disagree?

Umm, no. Historically, the Muslims were the ones who invited Jews to live in their lands. I've already established this. For HUNDREDS of years, Muslims allowed Jews in their lands, and Jews fled to Muslim lands for refuge. And great thanks do the Zionist Jews give by expelling the Muslims from Palestine. Think of how amazing this is: we are the ones who kept allowing them back, time and time again. But the minute they got control, they expelled millions of Palestinians, and denied them the Right of Return. We gave them the right of return; they did not give us this, and they continue to deny it.

With regards to Anti-Semitism in Muslim world, it's no less than the anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment in Israel. Do you deny this? Do you know how Arabs and Muslims are treated in Jewish Israel? Worse than dogs.

So please explain why you are trying to vilify the Muslims when a worse situation exists in the Jewish Israel?

That's fine, but I don't feel the two state soloution would satisfy the Muslim world.

I don't give two craps what you feel. Since when do you speak for us? Just be quiet.

Sure, they would take it cause it's better than what they have now, but won't be happy until they have all of Israel.

Again, stop speaking for us. I know that as a white man you think you can speak for little brown brother, but please stop.

Can you further explain this persecution of Muslims as I'm trying to understand. I'm not totally close minded, I'm interested.

Simple. You get harassed by police and arbitrarily thrown in jail.

You mean they control 100% of thier country without wanting to concede their border inward?

Wow, this right here is really stupid of you to say. Do you know that even in Israel they call it "the Occupied Territories." Do you know what the word "occupied" means?

one thing that is very well known is that obama(the liberal scum bag) "cow towed" to the muslim world and it was precieved as a huge (huge huge huge huge) sign of weakness...

How on earth did Obama cow-tow to the Muslims? He upped the colonial war in Afghanistan and continues the colonial war in Iraq. That is called cow-towing?

Why don't you speak about how Obama grovels and cow-tows to the Israeli lobby, namely AIPAC? He had to ask one of his appointees to step down just because of AIPAC's pressure.

they even stated that oboma was doing that because of the weakness of our economy, and of our principals, of our morals!!! and i will throw this out their - these terrorists - believe that by going nucular they will bring the end to the world - thus heaven on earth...

No, I am sorry, but that is not the belief of the terrorists. They don't want to bring an end to the world. That is sensationalism, and just inaccurate. Their belief is that America has killed Muslim civilians, so now it's time to kill American civilians. And they believe that by doing that they will tire out America and Americans. There is nothing about bringing an end to the world.

i say this bring it on!!! then we will show them what america is all about !!!

This type of jingo-ism and posturing is dangerous. It is what the extremists on both sides say. Rather, we should have a mutual de-escalation. We should start talking instead of fighting. We should have mutual understanding and peace.

[Kratos]

And I am telling you that you have no right to speak for the Muslims.

You have no more right to speak for all muslims then Puff Daddy has the right to speak for all black people. All I can offer is my opinion which is as valid as yours.

Yes, in your mind's eye the Muslims are blood-thirsty savages who could only want this and nothing else.

Where do you get this stuff?

But unfortunately for you, they have done polls on this matter, and the vast majority of the Muslims and Palestinians want peace with Israel. They do, however, want a fair peace, and what constitutes a fair peace, would be to go back to the 1967 borders or the 1947 ones. This is the general sentiment in the Muslim world.

You can't keep saying otherwise.



.

I did a poll on you in this thread to see why Israel was important to Muslims, here are some quotes.

Imagine if--during the Cold War--the Soviet Union occupied the entire state of Florida. Do you think Americans would just "let it go"? They would fight tooth and nail for it back. It's not just the land; after all, Florida is a small land mass compared to the rest of America. However, Florida would then become a Soviet base right next door to America. As such, it has geo-political importance. Likewise, Israel is located in the heart of the Middle East, and as such, it has great geo-political importance.
It took Saladin 200 years to reclaim Jerusalem from the Crusaders. Israel is some 60 years old. The Muslims trust in God, and know that the occupiers will be kicked out, just like the Crusaders were thrown out aforetime.


We Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad [s] visited Jerusalem in what is known as the Night Journey; this was in reality, and not in his sleep. However, what should be kept in mind is that the Muslims revere many prophets, not just Prophet Muhammad [s]. We revere Prophet Moses [as], who traveled with his tribe to the land of Palestine. We revere Prophet Jesus [as] who was born in the holy land. And there were many other prophets who were sent to that blessed land. Therefore, even if Prophet Muhammad [s] never visited Jerusalem, it would not negate the importance of the city.

There are three special mosques in Islam: one of them is located in Mecca, one in Madeenah, and one in Jerusalem. Prophet Muhammad [s] said:
“No (religious) journey should be made except to three mosques: al-Masjid al-Haraam [the Kaba'ah in Mecca], Masjid al-Rasool [the Prophet's Mosque in Madeenah] and Masjid al-Aqsa [in Jerusalem].” (Sahih al-Bukhari)

Throughout the hundreds of years of Islamic rule, Jerusalem has always been considered holy by the Muslims. When the Crusaders captured Jerusalem, the famous Saladin united the entire Muslim world to liberate it, such was the importance of the land.

There are only three holy cities in Islam: Mecca, Madeenah, and Jerusalem. Indeed, the early Muslims faced Jerusalem to pray--not Mecca. The city--and the land surrounding it--is very important to Muslims from a religious perspective. In verse 5:21, the Quran itself calls Jerusalem--and that which surrounds it--as "the holy land."

hate the leaders put over our heads and the borders imposed upon us by the colonialists that left our lands recently. We need to shake them off, and go back to how things were before the colonial enterprise in our lands."


What I'm getting at is the two state system doesn't solve any of the issues and will not put a long term end to the fighting. It leaves almost everything important to you in the hands of the Jews doesn't it. How can the Muslim world accept this, and how long will it put a stop to the fighting.

The Israelis get the majority of the land, whereas the Palestinians would get only the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, whereas the Israelis would get all the better land including West Jerusalem.

You state Israelis get the majority and all the better land...doesn't sound like a deal you are truely happy with.

On top of that the Jews have no interest in giving up anything.

Re-read what I quoted from you and then tell me again I don't know what I'm talking about. You want it all not just a peice.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Re-read what I quoted from you and then tell me again I don't know what I'm talking about. You want it all not just a peice.

You misspelled "piece"

Holy mother of god, did you even graduate middle school?

[eliteforce]

* During the Byzantine empire, Byzanties expell Jews from Palestine and they take refuge in Arab controled parts of middle east, Arab Empire (Islamic Caliphate) conquers Palestine and Jews are allowed to live wherever they want in the Empire.

* The Crusaders arrived in Jerusalem and exterminated the indegenous Jews and Muslims that are there (who were living together in peace), the rest flee to Arab controlled areas, Muslims march back in, do not exterminate Crusaders instead they are given safe passage out, eventually some crusaders stay and others go back to Europe after the crusaders collapsed, Jews are allowed back in to Palestine or are allowed to live where they want.

* The Zionists arrive and massacre and expel Muslims and Christians from Palestine, 1948, 1967. The ones that remain are forced to live in bantustans.

Seems like the conflict always breaks down along racial lines, considering those Jews in the Byzantine and Crusader era were middle eastern, the Byzantine Empire was the eastern part of the old Roman Empire and christian, the Crusaders were mostly from western Europe and Britain, the Zionists were predominantly western or caucasian in ethnicity and the zionist movement was started in western Europe..

Where were the "Judeo-Christians" back then?

Umm, no. Historically, the Muslims were the ones who invited Jews to live in their lands. I've already established this. For HUNDREDS of years, Muslims allowed Jews in their lands, and Jews fled to Muslim lands for refuge. And great thanks do the Zionist Jews give by expelling the Muslims from Palestine. Think of how amazing this is: we are the ones who kept allowing them back, time and time again. But the minute they got control, they expelled millions of Palestinians, and denied them the Right of Return. We gave them the right of return; they did not give us this, and they continue to deny it.

With regards to Anti-Semitism in Muslim world, it's no less than the anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sentiment in Israel. Do you deny this? Do you know how Arabs and Muslims are treated in Jewish Israel? Worse than dogs.

So please explain why you are trying to vilify the Muslims when a worse situation exists in the Jewish Israel?

[Kratos]

* During the Byzantine empire, Byzanties expell Jews from Palestine and they take refuge in Arab controled parts of middle east, Arab Empire (Islamic Caliphate) conquers Palestine and Jews are allowed to live wherever they want in the Empire.

* The Crusaders arrived in Jerusalem and exterminated the indegenous Jews and Muslims that are there (who were living together in peace), the rest flee to Arab controlled areas, Muslims march back in, do not exterminate Crusaders instead they are given safe passage out, eventually some crusaders stay and others go back to Europe after the crusaders collapsed, Jews are allowed back in to Palestine or are allowed to live where they want.

* The Zionists arrive and massacre and expel Muslims and Christians from Palestine, 1948, 1967. The ones that remain are forced to live in bantustans.

Seems like the conflict always breaks down along racial lines, considering those Jews in the Byzantine and Crusader era were middle eastern, the Byzantine Empire was the eastern part of the old Roman Empire and christian, the Crusaders were mostly from western Europe and Britain, the Zionists were predominantly western or caucasian in ethnicity and the zionist movement was started in western Europe..

Where were the "Judeo-Christians" back then?

So you're saying it's a white thing?

[NightWolf]

the statement said by buff is very true. practicing muslims are often or i should say most of the time are tortured by dictator leaders or governement.

Chariff, i hope your not talking about turkey or
tunisia now? because if you ever been there you
know thats not true, The leaders are muslims
and the citizens are muslims, so you see it makes no sense?

[BuffedGuy]

Chariff, i hope your not talking about turkey or
tunisia now? because if you ever been there you
know thats not true, The leaders are muslims
and the citizens are muslims, so you see it makes no sense?

Again, horribly simplistic. Saddam Hussein was Muslim in the same way, i.e. culturally Muslim. He heavily persecuted practicing Muslims. Oh wait, I guess you'll deny that too. lol you really have no idea about anything. All your views are based on anecdotal observation and prejudice. You met some Muslims in your life, a lot of them were this way or that way, so now to you, *all* Muslims are like that.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Muslims are not a monolithic or homogeneous group.

[Kratos]

Again, horribly simplistic. Saddam Hussein was Muslim in the same way, i.e. culturally Muslim. He heavily persecuted practicing Muslims. Oh wait, I guess you'll deny that too. .

We removed him for you...you're welcome.

Joking if you can't tell

[BuffedGuy]

We removed him for you...you're welcome.

Joking if you can't tell

"You" put him in power to begin with.

[Kratos]

"You" put him in power to begin with.

like I said it was a joke
I knew it was a stupid and loaded response to try and lighten things up

[Dinosaur]

Chariff, i hope your not talking about turkey or
tunisia now? because if you ever been there you
know thats not true, The leaders are muslims
and the citizens are muslims, so you see it makes no sense?

I have been to tunisia and I literally know what's going on over there.
do you happen to know who abu rqiba is? he was the ex president of tunisia before the current president zeen al abideen took power.
briefly, let me tell you little bit about how this tyrants ruled, destroyed his people and striped them from their rights.
he almost banned the fasting of ramadan, cause he said that it makes people tired and therefore it slows the production of the economy. he said that the friday prayer should be shortend and divided into two groups one group will have half an hour to pray and go back to work while the second group will take place of the first one and once they are done they will go back to work. one more thing amongst many other bad things he allowed into his country is legalizing the prostitution and I could go on and on... etc

As for turkey my sister lived there and I do have a broad idea of what Iam talking about.