Triceps on shoulder day?

[mastablasta7]

It seems like you aren't training enough, on or off cycle, however, like everyone's responses, it is individually dependant, I have no idea what your stats are, age/ht/wt, nor do I know what you mean by on or off cycle. From what I gathered from your statement, you don't change your routine, which is a terrible idea for anyone. So, please provide more detailed information, pics would be substantially more informative. As a trainer I would rather see for myself what it appears you need work on than take your word for it. You say you have nice development on biceps, but I know people who think they have certain areas developed well and it isn't the case. If you are 22 years old and you are only hitting bi's and tri's once a week, that is under-training, if you are under-nurished or old and no muscle building chemical production is going on, that might be okay. There are very rare circumstances where that small of a muscle group doesn't need to be trained more frequently. Everyone has naturally developed, or easier to develop, bodyparts and those that lag behind.

If you provide the above information, as well as lifting experience and diet, we'll help you make gains you have never experienced before.

Im not training enough? What exactly do you mean by this? I work each muscle once a week and for an hour and this seems to be working pretty well.

Stats:
Height: 6'2
Weight: 215
Age: 26
BF: Pretty low since i can see my abs
Training: 7 years

For major muscles (chest/back/legs) I do around 12 working sets. I workout extremely hard and by the time i get done with my workout im pretty exausted.
These people who go in the gym and do 20+sets and are in the gym for up to 2 hours are overtraining in my opinion (except for people with crazy genetics).

Im off cycle and lift 4 days a week and seems it to be working well since ive been maintaining weight/strength. My main concern is that biceps and triceps are a smaller muscle and there for i think they should be worked twice a week(perhaps?).

Please explaing what you mean by "not training enough". Ive had a few body builders tell me they get their entire chest workout done in 45minutes and they do each muscle once a week.

Your input is appreciated.

[tbody66]

I don't even have a workout schedule.. I used to keep track and do certain things on this day or that day, but my schedule just wouldn't allow it. I'm still in the gym 5 or 6 days a week I just hit what needs to be hit and I'm happy with my results. I will say that I can't stand doing chest and shoulders on the same day. I don't even like doing shoulders the day after or before chest. I get too sore and need to let my shoulders rest either way in order to have a good workout. Same thing with triceps. I usually do them on back day or legs.. It's just what works for me.

Instinctive training is an option and does work to a greater degree for some, an incredibly small percentage and absolutely not recommended. I will always believe that it will never work as well as a pre-determined plan of attack with regular modifications. Based upon you saying that your schedule just absolutely doesn't allow this, I'm presuming that you would do it differently if it did.

Im not training enough? What exactly do you mean by this? I work each muscle once a week and for an hour and this seems to be working pretty well.

Stats:
Height: 6'2
Weight: 215
Age: 26
BF: Pretty low since i can see my abs
Training: 7 years

For major muscles (chest/back/legs) I do around 12 working sets. I workout extremely hard and by the time i get done with my workout im pretty exausted.
These people who go in the gym and do 20+sets and are in the gym for up to 2 hours are overtraining in my opinion (except for people with crazy genetics).

Im off cycle and lift 4 days a week and seems it to be working well since ive been maintaining weight/strength. My main concern is that biceps and triceps are a smaller muscle and there for i think they should be worked twice a week(perhaps?).

Please explaing what you mean by "not training enough". Ive had a few body builders tell me they get their entire chest workout done in 45minutes and they do each muscle once a week.

Your input is appreciated.

Most of us here on this board have no right or reason to do what "body-builders" do, it's totally different for them. Your stats suggest a few things, you probably have a nice build, better than most even, the problem isn't how we compare to other people, but how close to maximizing our potential are we and what do we need to do to challange our bodies the most. You may be getting good gains from your program, but good is the greatest enemy of great. The next few ideas are basic, but should be applicable to you due to your age and lifting experience, muscles recover in 48 - 96 hours, depending on the size of the muscle group and the intensity of the training, if your muscles are recovered and you do not train them you are missing out on growth opportunities, the biceps and triceps are the smallest muscle groups and should be worked twice a week (once you are a competitive bodybuilder and your arms are the exact right size and proportion to the rest of your physique this might need to drop, until then...)

I absolutely never questioned your workout ethic, but have trained several people with years of lifting experience and showed them how to workout smart and produced even better results. I will always be a fan of changing your program up every two months, sometimes the changes may seem like a 180 degree change and sometimes 1 degree. Anyone who works out with a non-biased, knowledgable trainer will always produce better results than without (almost every top bodybuilder has a trainer), for every story you hear about someone that does something and works for them you have an exact opposite story that works for someone else, what matters is what works for you and if you have only tried it one way you don't know if another way is better. Sometimes leaving something you know and later coming back to it will produce even better results than staying with it.

[mastablasta7]

Most of us here on this board have no right or reason to do what "body-builders" do, it's totally different for them. Your stats suggest a few things, you probably have a nice build, better than most even, the problem isn't how we compare to other people, but how close to maximizing our potential are we and what do we need to do to challange our bodies the most. You may be getting good gains from your program, but good is the greatest enemy of great. The next few ideas are basic, but should be applicable to you due to your age and lifting experience, muscles recover in 48 - 96 hours, depending on the size of the muscle group and the intensity of the training, if your muscles are recovered and you do not train them you are missing out on growth opportunities, the biceps and triceps are the smallest muscle groups and should be worked twice a week (once you are a competitive bodybuilder and your arms are the exact right size and proportion to the rest of your physique this might need to drop, until then...)

I absolutely never questioned your workout ethic, but have trained several people with years of lifting experience and showed them how to workout smart and produced even better results. I will always be a fan of changing your program up every two months, sometimes the changes may seem like a 180 degree change and sometimes 1 degree. Anyone who works out with a non-biased, knowledgable trainer will always produce better results than without (almost every top bodybuilder has a trainer), for every story you hear about someone that does something and works for them you have an exact opposite story that works for someone else, what matters is what works for you and if you have only tried it one way you don't know if another way is better. Sometimes leaving something you know and later coming back to it will produce even better results than staying with it.

I understand what you are saying and you are very knowledgable. From what your saying it sounds like you think i should work each muscle twice a week?

Ill admit when i was benching 2-3 times a week i was gaining a little more then i am now working each muscle only once a week. The biggest problem is that half of my lifts were progressing significantly and some of my lifts were not. If I do each muscle twice a week then the muscles that i work after my main muscles will be lacking (Ex: shoulders after chest - i'll be exausted from chest and get a poor shoulder workout). Ill admit after working each muscle they feel fine and ready to train again about 3-4 days later. Unfortanantly If i want to stay proportional and work all my muscles equally I have to do a 4-5 days split with 7days rest for each muscle. Also if your only doing 6 sets for a muscle then 48-72hours rest is just enough but if you are working the shit out of your muscle for an hour I believe it needs a longer time to recovery.

I wish i could work each muscle twice a week but thats a pretty heavy load and i wouldnt be able to handle that as tjax said.

Ill admit some people can excell with only 72hours rest and lift each muscle twice a week. A buddy of mine does this and is a total hoss and the only thing he takes is protien. Hes benching 355 and weighs only 185. He lifts like 2 hours everyday sometimes more which is usually extreme OT for most.

[terraj]

I will always be a fan of changing your program up every two months, sometimes the changes may seem like a 180 degree change and sometimes 1 degree. .

I don't like this idea, it is something that has caught via the parrot chain unfortunately.

If you are still gaining you don't change it...correct? Using progressive overload, you would be shooting yourself in the foot by changing.
Also if you change often you don't give your body time to adapt to new movements.

Keep with the routine for as long as it was working! You are much beter off sticking with something that is working, and then taking a week off at around 10-12 weeks.

Also from what I have seen and read, the majority of top BBs only use personal trainers for prep.

[tjax03]

I don't like this idea, it is something that has caught via the parrot chain unfortunately.

If you are still gaining you don't change it...correct? Using progressive overload, you would be shooting yourself in the foot by changing.
Also if you change often you don't give your body time to adapt to new movements.

Keep with the routine for as long as it was working! You are much beter off sticking with something that is working, and then taking a week off at around 10-12 weeks.

Also from what I have seen and read, the majority of top BBs only use personal trainers for prep.

X2 You will develop more by sticking to a routine and working to increase the amount of weight you can lift. Progressive overload is by far the most important stimulator of muscle growth. The only people who have any business performing "instinctive" type training programs are pros who have a complete understanding of their body and have learned exactly what works for them and what doesn't. Most people just end up wasting their time with this type of training.

[mastablasta7]

X2 You will develop more by sticking to a routine and working to increase the amount of weight you can lift. Progressive overload is by far the most important stimulator of muscle growth. The only people who have any business performing "instinctive" type training programs are pros who have a complete understanding of their body and have learned exactly what works for them and what doesn't. Most people just end up wasting their time with this type of training.

Jay Cutler even says he usually sticks to the same workout. If you workout with intensity and have a good diet you will grow.

[tbody66]

I don't like this idea, it is something that has caught via the parrot chain unfortunately.

If you are still gaining you don't change it...correct? Using progressive overload, you would be shooting yourself in the foot by changing.
Also if you change often you don't give your body time to adapt to new movements.

Keep with the routine for as long as it was working! You are much beter off sticking with something that is working, and then taking a week off at around 10-12 weeks.

Also from what I have seen and read, the majority of top BBs only use personal trainers for prep.

I appreciate differing opinions, I'm having a hard time not taking it personal when you refer to my advice as something from the "parrot chain", certainly takes away from my years of personal experience. I would find it hard to believe that every bodypart is continuing to progress at the same degree as all other bodyparts without tweaking a routine periodically, thus my statement that the change may be only 1 degree.

X2 You will develop more by sticking to a routine and working to increase the amount of weight you can lift. Progressive overload is by far the most important stimulator of muscle growth. The only people who have any business performing "instinctive" type training programs are pros who have a complete understanding of their body and have learned exactly what works for them and what doesn't. Most people just end up wasting their time with this type of training.

I am absolutely not a fan of "instinctive" training. I also appreciate your opinion about sticking with a routine and progressive overload, but I disagree with your matter of fact statement that you will "develop more" by doing so, very subjective. I will absolutely admit that this may be true for some, but not most. As a trainer we learn that most people become bored with the same routine and need change to remain motivated, change for change sake is not what I'm supporting here, but not everyone has the fortitude to go to the gym, week in and week out, month in and month out, year in and year out and do the same routine. I know trainers who teach this and their clients get results, I'm just from a different school of thought. With bodybuilding I know this, there is definitely more than one way to arrive at the same place.

Jay Cutler even says he usually sticks to the same workout. If you workout with intensity and have a good diet you will grow.

Again, most of us aren't in that position, if I looked like him and said I only do plyometrics that wouldn't make it something most people could get away with. I'm a big fan of Intensity and absolutely agree with your statement about that, but if you performed the best exercises for your body under the best stress load with that intensity and a good diet you would grow bigger quicker.

[terraj]

I appreciate differing opinions, I'm having a hard time not taking it personal when you refer to my advice as something from the "parrot chain", certainly takes away from my years of personal experience. I would find it hard to believe that every bodypart is continuing to progress at the same degree as all other bodyparts without tweaking a routine periodically, thus my statement that the change may be only 1 degree.



I am absolutely not a fan of "instinctive" training. I also appreciate your opinion about sticking with a routine and progressive overload, but I disagree with your matter of fact statement that you will "develop more" by doing so, very subjective. I will absolutely admit that this may be true for some, but not most. As a trainer we learn that most people become bored with the same routine and need change to remain motivated, change for change sake is not what I'm supporting here, but not everyone has the fortitude to go to the gym, week in and week out, month in and month out, year in and year out and do the same routine. I know trainers who teach this and their clients get results, I'm just from a different school of thought. With bodybuilding I know this, there is definitely more than one way to arrive at the same place.



Again, most of us aren't in that position, if I looked like him and said I only do plyometrics that wouldn't make it something most people could get away with. I'm a big fan of Intensity and absolutely agree with your statement about that, but if you performed the best exercises for your body under the best stress load with that intensity and a good diet you would grow bigger quicker.

No offence man, you know your shit, I can see that.

A question for you.....do you train BBs or avg trainees?