I just wanted to add one more thing. I know the discussion here is the value of oral only cycles as an alternative to test only or test + oral or whatever. I have read at several sites and interviews of ex-BBs on you tube that the BB's in the 60s and 70s did oral only cycles when they first started. I've also read that once they started adding injectables, test wasn't even in the first few cycles - maybe true, idk. Point is that I think the BBs who first stared using AAS have clearly demonstrated that significant gains can be made without test. Clearly, test became a mainstay bc of its added benefits and results and to say that a cycle with test is better than one without is 100% agreed upon by everyone here. I know this is a little off topic and an extreme example of what the OP is trying to get across, but I think it shows us of the potential that non-test cycles can have. Of course, non-test cycles that include other injectables is vastly different from non-test cycles that are oral-only. Any thoughts?