Cardio for fat burning...

[Indymuscleguy]

Ok, I spoke to a buddy this weekend and we discussed cardio. To cut bodyfat, my heart-rate sould only max out at 130bpm. I'm 42. After I workout, my heart-rate is that or a little higher.

So, it seems, he wants me to keep my heart-rate at 130bpm for 30-45 minutes.

I haven't measured my bodyfat in some time, but I'd say it's about 14%.

Suggestions??

[Phate]

Ok, I spoke to a buddy this weekend and we discussed cardio. To cut bodyfat, my heart-rate sould only max out at 130bpm. I'm 42. After I workout, my heart-rate is that or a little higher.

So, it seems, he wants me to keep my heart-rate at 130bpm for 30-45 minutes.

I haven't measured my bodyfat in some time, but I'd say it's about 14%.

Suggestions??

that is steady state cardio, and should be performed on an empty stomach, though you have to be careful not to go catabolic from it. i see a couple options to keep you from going catabolic with empty stomach cardio, btw i use both of these in conjunction and they work very well..

1) if you can, order some bulk glutamine (around 15-20$ for 500g) and take around 5-10g before cardio, this will give your body a large amount of glutamine to use to replenish it's amino acid pool. The reason this is important is because when your body enters a catabolic state it breaks down muscle tissue into it's constitute amino acids and transports those to your liver where they are broken down into alanine and converted into glycogen via gluconeogenesis. But this can be avoided by providing your body with either protein for it to break down into amino acids or the aminos themselves. Btw, glutamine makes up about 60% of the aminos in muscle tissue and therefore is the most used amino during gluconeogenesis, that's why i recommend it.

2) Drink a whey protein shake before cardio (i prefer whey for this because whey is a fast acting protein so the aminos in it are digested within 45 minutes), this will supply your body with the aminos it needs and will spare your muscle from being burned for energy, and if your wondering if it will be counter-productive to drink a shake because the protein will be used and you won't be burning fat, don't worry, it won't unless your training with high enough intensity for it to be used to fuel gluconeogenesis, cool huh, lol. Btw, most protein shakes are infused with amino acids, just look on the jug and you'll see a list of the aminos in it, so you're getting glutamine from it.

i normally will drink a small shake (about 20g of protein), made with water and add glutamine and caffeine(if you didn't know, caffeine increases fat-oxidation, lowers perception of workout intensity, and spares muscle glycogen, making it a perfect companion during cardio), this combination increases my ability to perform cardio in both duration and intensity and gives me peace of mind knowing that my muscle has very little chance of being tapped into for energy.


Another type of cardio is HIIT training, which employs very high intensity intervals to increase heart rate and metabolic output for a longer time interval, i'll explain this if you like

[Indymuscleguy]

Wow, great info bud.

I normally, during a workout, drink a whey/glutamine shake, then hit the eliptical. I have some clen on hand, but MAN do I SHAKE with even the smallest mcg dose.

What's the +/- factor on a weigh scale with a bodyfat% meter built in? Typically I get a range of 11.5% to 14.5%

Also, here are a few stats:

42
5'11"
170lbs
33"w

Would 30 minutes be sufficient at 130bpm> or if I want to really rid the fat, 45 @ 130bpm?

Thanks in advance...

[jimmyinkedup]

so after w/o is perfect time to do cardio...as h/r is elevated to target level and blood sugars are burned off from resistance training. I wouldnt eat/ drink anything esp fast digesting whey /aminos as this will undo the effect of immeaditely burning bodyfat for fuel that doing cardio immediately following resistance training would give you. By doing this you eliminate the 20 mins or so it takes doing cardio alone to reach he point where body turns to bodyfat for fuel. id go from weights to cardio ...do 30-40 mins cardio at target hr and then drink post wo shake....you shouldnt enter catabolic state if you have eaten a pre workout meal plus the workout alone will foster an "anabolic window" . Just drink pwo shake immediately following cardio. Oh and id drop the "during workout shake" h2o only if u really wanna burn bodyfat ...again your needs should be met from your pre workout meal...no need during and you have about an hour after resistance to take in pwo shake.

[POPS]

pre workout meal like a handfull of almonds/Kashi bar/glass of water 30 min before workout. Then weight training followed by 30-45 min of steady cardio at @130-135 bpm, immed. followed by pwo shake; wait about an hour then have dinner? And so on....

[Indymuscleguy]

Wow, more great info. Thanks!!!

[Phate]

so after w/o is perfect time to do cardio...as h/r is elevated to target level and blood sugars are burned off from resistance training. I wouldnt eat/ drink anything esp fast digesting whey /aminos as this will undo the effect of immeaditely burning bodyfat for fuel that doing cardio immediately following resistance training would give you. By doing this you eliminate the 20 mins or so it takes doing cardio alone to reach he point where body turns to bodyfat for fuel. id go from weights to cardio ...do 30-40 mins cardio at target hr and then drink post wo shake....you shouldnt enter catabolic state if you have eaten a pre workout meal plus the workout alone will foster an "anabolic window" . Just drink pwo shake immediately following cardio. Oh and id drop the "during workout shake" h2o only if u really wanna burn bodyfat ...again your needs should be met from your pre workout meal...no need during and you have about an hour after resistance to take in pwo shake.

i don't quite agree with this, a protein/amino drink before cardio won't hinder fatburning since you are ingesting protein, not a carbohydrate or fat source. In addition to this, if your body does shift into a catabolic state during the cardio(unlikely unless you do high intensity cardio) you will have a full amino acid pool from the shake which your body will use as a substitute during gluconeogenesis

the anabolic window is correct, but the problem is, while you have an "anabolic window" the anaerobic nature and intensity therein of weight training will put you in a catabolic state towards the end and after your workout

[jimmyinkedup]

i don't quite agree with this, a protein/amino drink before cardio won't hinder fatburning since you are ingesting protein, not a carbohydrate or fat source. In addition to this, if your body does shift into a catabolic state during the cardio(unlikely unless you do high intensity cardio) you will have a full amino acid pool from the shake which your body will use as a substitute during gluconeogenesis

the anabolic window is correct, but the problem is, while you have an "anabolic window" the anaerobic nature and intensity therein of weight training will put you in a catabolic state towards the end and after your workout

Hmm I may be mistaken but your body will not differentiate between caloires from protein or carbs ingested. Although carbs are primary(preferred) source of fuel your body will burn ingested protein before bodyfat for fuel. Protein does not only build muscle (im sure u already know that). Interesting thread..i like different takes on this. I tend to question the falling into catabolic state so quickly or at end of resistance training ...the bodies response to such training usually involves increased levels of anabolic hormones and if u are on supplements (juice)well that would def prevent this...even if not i question this. Im sure there are prob studies out there that support both theories...

[Phate]

Hmm I may be mistaken but your body will not differentiate between caloires from protein or carbs ingested.you're correct Although carbs are primary(preferred) source of fuel your body will burn ingested protein before bodyfat for fuel. this is the part i don't agree with, your body would burn protein in an anaerobic cardio session, but in a steady state session the major energy provider is fat due to the fact that it has time to oxidize, also since after working out you have an "anabolic window" the protein you take in will be shuffled into muscle cells and used to replenish your amino acid poolProtein does not only build muscle (im sure u already know that). Interesting thread..i like different takes on this. I tend to question the falling into catabolic state so quickly or at end of resistance training ...the bodies response to such training usually involves increased levels of anabolic hormones and if u are on supplements (juice)well that would def prevent this...even if not i question this. Im sure there are prob studies out there that support both theories...

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[jimmyinkedup]

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Hmm so you think if an energy source is avail to the body (in the form of protein) it will still turn to body fat as primary source of fuel? Im trying to get my hands around that. Surely caloric intake prior to cardio will lessen the bodies need to resort to fat for fuel...which can be done immedaitely if you follow resistance training with cardio. The anabolic window we speak of can be taken advantage of after cardio and your body will IMO be more effective at using body fat as primary source of fuel during cardio if you refrain from another energy source the body would prefer over burning body fat.

[Phate]

Hmm so you think if an energy source is avail to the body (in the form of protein) it will still turn to body fat as primary source of fuel? yes, because the conversion of protein to glycogen is more energy expensive then lipolysis, our bodies are designed for survival and will do whatever it takes to survive but when given a choice will choose the path of least resistant(more energy gained)Im trying to get my hands around that. Surely caloric intake prior to cardio will lessen the bodies need to resort to fat for fuel...which can be done immedaitely if you follow resistance training with cardio. The anabolic window we speak of can be taken advantage of after cardioyes, but there are actually a series of windows(or a closing window if you will) and the sooner a protein source is made available the better and your body will IMO be more effective at using body fat as primary source of fuel during cardio if you refrain from another energy source the body would prefer over burning body fat.

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[Indymuscleguy]

Great discussion guys!

[Phate]

Great discussion guys!

you got me and jimmy started, now this is gonna go until the end of next year, lol

[jimmyinkedup]

*L* we disagree in an agreeable way though dont we!
Im def intrigued by what u r saying phate. Would explain also why some high protein/low carb diets are effective for rapid weight loss ...and also prove to be anti catabolic as well. Same principal? Interesting stuff ... If I wasnt so lazy id research it but it is starting to make some sense! I may be stubborn but im teachable*L* Good Stuff. How about using bcaa's for same purpose? what do you think?

[Phate]

*L* we disagree in an agreeable way though dont we!
Im def intrigued by what u r saying phate. Would explain also why some high protein/low carb diets are effective for rapid weight lossexactly, in fact, i read a great book on keto dieting that showed that while in a ketogenic state empty stomach cardio can be achieved at anytime during the day since you have very little if any glycogen stores, though that would work well but i shrink while in ketosis and have horrible workouts so i don't do it often ...and also prove to be anti catabolic as well. Same principal? Interesting stuff ... If I wasnt so lazy id research it but it is starting to make some sense! I may be stubborn but im teachable*L* Good Stuff. How about using bcaa's for same purpose?yes, though research has shown that the animos in real foods are more bioavailable then bulk aminos(hence one of the reasons why real food is almost always better than a food suuplement), but for this purpose i feel they are around the same since all we are aiming to do it start recovery, keep our body primed for the nutrients we will be introducing after cardio, and replenishing our amino acid pool(especially with glutamine or glutamic acid, which is the precursor to glutamine) what do you think?

one thing that should also be mentioned is that taking BCAAs/glutamin with a protein shake can actually be counterproductive in that the shake most of the time will contain precursors to the actual aminos and introducing both at the same time will cause them to compete, kind of like running clen and ephedra at the same time

[jimmyinkedup]

Yeah I heard that re: glutamine/aminos with protein shake counter productive. I dont mix em. Agreed real food is always best choice but convenience dictates priority in some cases. Anyway thanks for info Bro.... Good Stuff ...Nice thread ....

[Phate]

Yeah I heard that re: glutamine/aminos with protein shake counter productive. I dont mix em. Agreed real food is always best choice but convenience dictates priority in some cases. Anyway thanks for info Bro.... Good Stuff ...Nice thread ....

agreed, always nice to have an informative debate with someone of your knowledge

[jimmyinkedup]

agreed, always nice to have an informative debate with someone of your knowledge

back at ya bro..

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ phate - the keto diet analogy 1 question ..in order for that to hold true, burning bodyfat before proteins ..all glycogen stores need to be depleted to enter ketosis for this to take place. That wouldnt be the case for our purposes ? How is it that on a keto diet this takes 2 days to attain but the way u explained above it occurs virtually instantaneously? Im not trying to be a pain ..im trying to really grasp this..and obviously struggling ! *L*

[Phate]

^^^ phate - the keto diet analogy 1 question ..in order for that to hold true, burning bodyfat before proteins ..all glycogen stores need to be depleted to enter ketosis for this to take place. That wouldnt be the case for our purposes ? How is it that on a keto diet this takes 2 days to attain but the way u explained above it occurs virtually instantaneously? Im not trying to be a pain ..im trying to really grasp this..and obviously struggling ! *L*

it's cool bro, we're all here to learn, and i never consider it a pain to share knowledge

do you mean the loss of glycogen stores? sorry, i'm not quite getting what you're asking

[jimmyinkedup]

basic question is - how is it with above example we can attain burning bodyfat before protein almost immediately where in a ketogenic diet it takes 2 days to do this (glycogen stores fully depleted - enter ketosis)

[Phate]

basic question is - how is it with above example we can attain burning bodyfat before protein almost immediately where in a ketogenic diet it takes 2 days to do this (glycogen stores fully depleted - enter ketosis)

i'll have to type this all out later, but here is the basics of it

we use two tricks to enter a glycogen depleted state, either performing cardio on an empty stomach which takes advantage of a fasted state from the night before, or performing it after weight-lifting, which depletes glycogen to perform exercise

the advantage of ketosis is that you are in a glycogen depleted(fasted) state all the time, which means that as long as you keep your cardio steady state low intensity aerobic, your body will burn fat as the primary energy source, but it will burn protein if you take intensity too high

that being said, the difference in actual percentage of fat burning from empty stomach and normal cardio is 67% vs. 52% respectively if i remember the study correctly

protein is almost always the last energy source used by the body as it's very ineffective as an energy source because of all the steps(and therefore energy) involved in the process, which basically goes like this: muscle is broken down into constitute amino acids(60% glutamine), aminos are transported to the liver, liver turns aminos into alanine, which is then converted into glycogen, glycogen is then transfered back to the muscled to be used as energy, as you can see, it's a very exhaustive process

[jimmyinkedup]

ok so what u r saying in a nutshell is by doing cardio post weight training when we are in a glycogen depleted state that taking in reasonable amounts of protein will not effect results because the process to convert protein to energy is more difficult than converting bodyfat to energy therefore the body takes path of least resistance. Also it appears that it would take time for the body to accomplish this so you could be done cardio prior to that conversion (protein to energy) taking place. The benefit in your opinion is assured anti catabolic state. Took a while but i think i understand ...oh and no need to expand you've expended enough energy on this thread to deplete your own glycogen stores *L*

[Phate]

ok so what u r saying in a nutshell is by doing cardio post weight training when we are in a glycogen depleted state that taking in reasonable amounts of protein will not effect results because the process to convert protein to energy is more difficult than converting bodyfat to energy therefore the body takes path of least resistance.yes Also it appears that it would take time for the body to accomplish this so you could be done cardio prior to that conversion (protein to energy) taking place.well, it takes place fast enough that it can be used for energy if needed(look at marathon runners legs, their muscles go through this process alot because of the huge energy demands, which cause the muscles to literally eat themselves) The benefit in your opinion is assured anti catabolic state.yes, as long as the cardio is kept at a low intensity Took a while but i think i understand ...oh and no need to expand you've expended enough energy on this thread to deplete your own glycogen stores *L*

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[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ got it ...so now im wondering why then it takes so long to enter ketosis in a keto diet ...but thats another thread....thanks bro

[RotorHead]

wow... alot of good info here nice! answers a few questions i had

[jimmyinkedup]

*L* ok phate we are gonna try this again ..ive been researching and based on what was stated above from what i can tell the conversion of protein to glycogen is more energy expensive that lipolysis when talking about stored body tissue - ie muscle vs bodyfat. However when it comes to ingested protein there are very mixed reviews ...some studies indicate that what you sated is correct ...others state that if an avail energy source in the way of ingested food ,whether it be protein, fats , or carbs are available , the body will utilize those nutrients before turning to stored bodyfat for fuel. Muscle being one of the bodies last choices for fuel but it will be used during high intensity cardio (ie your marathon example) SO id say try it both ways and see what works ..im currently cutting down in prep to cycle and im going to use your method as i am familiar with mine and im curious to see results. I am learning alot from this thread....thank you...

[Phate]

*L* ok phate we are gonna try this again ..ive been researching and based on what was stated above from what i can tell the conversion of protein to glycogen is more energy expensive that lipolysis when talking about stored body tissue - ie muscle vs bodyfat. However when it comes to ingested protein there are very mixed reviews ...some studies indicate that what you sated is correct ...others state that if an avail energy source in the way of ingested food ,whether it be protein, fats , or carbs are available , the body will utilize those nutrients before turning to stored bodyfat for fuel. Muscle being one of the bodies last choices for fuel but it will be used during high intensity cardio (ie your marathon example) SO id say try it both ways and see what works ..im currently cutting down in prep to cycle and im going to use your method as i am familiar with mine and im curious to see results. I am learning alot from this thread....thank you...

interesting, i'm gonna have to go research as well and see as i'm curious as to whether the fact that the cardio is performed after weighttraining(and thus puts your body in a nutrient deficient state) would affect whether or not your body pulls the protein in to muscle cells for recovery or energy