Steroids and protein intake.

[Ronnie Rowland]

I wanted to toss something out there for all you guys taking anabolic steroids. If you have read through the Slingshot Training System article you know I believe in protein cycling. Protein cycling while using anabolics is nothing new! Dave Palumbo suggest that protein cycling is anabolic. Vince Gironda was pushing periods of lower protein intake years ago. Tom Platz talked about it in his book "Big Beyond Belief." I believe that constantly taking in high amounts of protein (for i.e.: 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight year round) can make the body become efficient at getting rid of it as waste rather than utilizing it for muscle growth regardless of what you may be using to promote protein systheis. Why? For starters the liver becomes stressed and gains can slow down. Ammonia is a product formed during amino acid deamination and is very toxic to the body. Constanlty overloading your body with excessive amounts of protein in order to achieve more growth does not work as well as one might think.

The key to getting the body to store more protein in the mucles is to first remove excess toxins from kidneys and liver by way of a deload ( a lower volume training phase). This helps the organs to become efficient at storing amino acids in the body rather than getting rid of them as waste. In addition, increasing healthy fat intake while simulataenously lowering carbs/proetin during a deload will help increase insulin sensitivity. When insulin sensitivity is high-more amino acids can be accepted into the muscle cells. Fats allow for additional calories to be ingested without decreasing insulin sensitivity like tons of carbs do. And healthy fats do not put undue stress on organs like heavy amounts of protein. The *****-3 fatty acids are somewhat anabolic and significantly improve glucose disposal in both diabetics and healthy humans.

I have learned the best time to load up on protein and carbs is during higher volume training phases (called a reload) where their is a larger demand for such. It's simply not needed during lower volume training phases (deload). As with training volumes- protein/carb cycling causes the body to become more efficient at storage of either. I believe lowering protein during a deload tricks the body into becoming very sensitive to the anabolic effects of amino acids just as lowering training volume during a deload encourages the body to become more sensitive to higher training volumes during a reload.. If the body is always being overloaded with large amouts of protein it can down-regulating protein storage enzymes secondary to anticipating excess protein. The body is an adaptive machine so realize taking in too much protein or carbs can actually decrease absorption over a period of time. The same rule applies to training volumes!

Periodization is time-tested and proven to work. Apply these principles to your steroid cycles and you will experience additional growth! Link to Slingshot Training- http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=348723

[Big]

very good post, I've been thinking along these lines lately myself.

[ufcfighter4]

outstanding read bro....

now what kind of time line are we looking at with loading up and then down loading?

[G4R]

This is a great follow up to the Slingshot Training thread (which is great).

Everything here makes perfect sense and makes me wonder why I never thought of it before.

Very good thread

[Reed]

Great post, will do doing this as I reduce my training post contest.

Thanks

[MACKATTACK]

What lengths of time are we taking when unloading and loading. Can you give an example of how you would go about this process, would you say incorporating it on a weekly basis or a monthly basis (changing from week to week)?

Thanks

[ninesecz]

That is a very very interesting post

[time 4 a *CHANGE*]

so what ronnie is saying, is your protein intake should be higher around the time of workouts(before/after) than the meals that arn't near workout time. correct?

[MACKATTACK]

so what ronnie is saying, is your protein intake should be higher around the time of workouts(before/after) than the meals that arn't near workout time. correct?

I don't think this is a daily routine and following it at certain hours of the day, I think its more of a week too week thing or 3-4 weeks of loading and 3-4 weeks of unloading. the body would just get used to the process if it was performed on a daily basis for 8-14 weeks straight I would assume.

[G4R]

In working with his Slingshot Training, he is saying keep your protein/carb levels higher during your reload training (4 weeks, high intensity, high weight, high rep), then a lower protein/carb intake during your deload training (2 weeks, lower intensity, same weight, half the reps).

[time 4 a *CHANGE*]

I don't think this is a daily routine and following it at certain hours of the day, I think its more of a week too week thing or 3-4 weeks of loading and 3-4 weeks of unloading. the body would just get used to the process if it was performed on a daily basis for 8-14 weeks straight I would assume.

In working with his Slingshot Training, he is saying keep your protein/carb levels higher during your reload training (4 weeks, high intensity, high weight, high rep), then a lower protein/carb intake during your deload training (2 weeks, lower intensity, same weight, half the reps).

i get it know. thanks for explaining it.

[peachfuzz]

I think it is important to understand your diet needs to be very precise to pull this off. how much should protein be reduced? 10%? 20%?

if done incorrectly i see more harm then good coming from it.

[big_ron]

some very good thoughts

[MuscleScience]

I protein cycle, some mornings I eat pancakes with maple syrup. The next morning I eat bacon and eggs. I dont know about anabolic but it sure is good-a-bolic.

[Ronnie Rowland]

outstanding read bro....

now what kind of time line are we looking at with loading up and then down loading?

You reload for 8 weeks. Next you deload for 1-2 weeks depending on your recovery abilities. I tend to make my best gains following a 8 week reload alternated with a 2 week deload.

Note: The biggest guy in our gym is making his best gains with a 8 week reload alternated with a 1 week deload. So it really is a very individualistic thing and it can change depending on your workload outside the gym and how well you are recoverying.

[LLsoldier]

i will try this

[Ronnie Rowland]

so what ronnie is saying, is your protein intake should be higher around the time of workouts(before/after) than the meals that arn't near workout time. correct?

Seeing that you now understand. I wanted to give you this information to use with protein cycling.

This type of diet plan is proven effective for most bodybuilders who are looking to gain mass. In the long run, it'll lead to a much more muscular appearance. In a nutshell, you alternate low carb days with high carb days on an every other day basis. On low carb/calories days you have 3-meals with carbs and 3-5 meals without them every other day. On the the high carb/calorie days you eat carbs with every meal to increase insulin/t-3 output and to increase total caloric intake as needed.

The three carb meals on low carb days will contain carbs and proteins (breakfast, before workouts, immediate post-workout drink/post-workout meal 60-120 minutes after your workout). The remaining 3-5 meals should be made up of protein, healthy fats, and green veggies such as green beans and salad. Make sure and keep fat intake very low during the earlier part of the day on high carb/calories days so it will not interefere with digestion and prevent you from eating enough carbs/calories to grow. If you need fats to boost total caloric intake it's best to wait and consume them later in the day.

On low carb days you ingest carbs in the morning or earlier in the day and/or after workouts if it falls on a training day. Total caloric intake is less on lower carb days. You'll have to experiement to see how many calories your body requires to grow on both low carb and high carb days without getting fat. The amount of carbs and calories consumed will vary every other day. The lower carb days improve insulin sensititivity so maximum protein synthesis can occur on the following higher carb/calorie days. These lower carb days will increase your appetite so you have the option of eating more carb/calories the following day. Protein intake remains the same on both low carb and high carb days. This is called Slingshot Carb Cycling!

Sample lay out for low carb/calorie days

Low carb/calorie days:
Meal 1 carbs
Meal 2 fats
Meal 3 fats
Meal 4 carbs
*workout*
Meal 5 carbs
Meal 6 fats

Sample lay out for high carb/calorie days

High carb/calories days:
Meal 1 carbs
Meal 2 carbs
Meal 3 carbs
Meal 4 carbs
*workout*
Meal 5 carbs (fats if needed)
Meal 6 carbs (fats if needed)

[xo3et]

This is a really good thread and i thank you for the information as it really does make sense

[Ronnie Rowland]

I think it is important to understand your diet needs to be very precise to pull this off. how much should protein be reduced? 10%? 20%?

if done incorrectly i see more harm then good coming from it.

If you are taking in 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight during a reload then you would go down to around 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight during a deload. I usually go down to right at 1 gram with a deload because it gives my body a needed break from the 2 grams during a reload. It's hard on the stomach trying to digest 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight day-in, day-out.

Note: 8 time mr. olympia Lee Haney rarely took in more than 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight each day during his lifting career. I wanted to throw that out there for those who are afraid of losing muscle when decreasing protein during a deload. Lowering protein intake during deloads is only going to increase size!

[*RAGE*]

back to the top...

thanks for explaining it

[Ronnie Rowland]

very good post, I've been thinking along these lines lately myself.

I do not think it's a coincedence that people who have been around this game for a while eventually come to very similar conclusions when presented with various information.

[leopold35]

Would you advise dropping below one gram ptn. per pound of bw?

[jbm]

nice posts as usual!

[Mase33]

If you are taking in 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight during a reload then you would go down to around 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight during a deload. I usually go down to right at 1 gram with a deload because it gives my body a needed break from the 2 grams during a reload. It's hard on the stomach trying to digest 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight day-in, day-out.

Note: 7 time olympia Lee Haney rarely took in more than 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight each day during his lifting career. I wanted to throw that out there for those who are afraid of losing muscle when decreasing protein during a deload. Lowering protein intake during deloads is only going to increase size!

State your source on the Lee Haney Note:

[Ronnie Rowland]

Would you advise dropping below one gram ptn. per pound of bw?

Note if you are using 2 grams per pound of body weight because you will still be building muscle during a deload. If you are using only about 1 grams per pound during reload then around .5 to .7.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight during a deload would work.

[Ronnie Rowland]

State your source on the Lee Haney Note:

It was flex or muscular development. I can't remember which one for sure but Lee consumed 6 meals per day and only 40 grams of protein per meal.

Another 255 pound bodybuilder (Matt Mendenhall) often consumed even less than a gram per pound of body weight. He was considered big in the 80's. Here's a quote- "Mendenhall’s diet is fairly standard: In off-season, I’m more concerned about keeping my protein intake up to at least 150–200 grams per day. Other than that, I don’t worry about my diet, although it is usually quite high in fresh foods. I don’t go overboard on calories. Twelve weeks before a competition I’ll drop my calories to 1800 per day, eating mainly fish, turkey, chicken, fresh vegetables, fruit and an occasional baked potato. For the American Championship, I stayed at 1800 up until two weeks before the competition, when I dropped it to 1200 per day. I adjust the calories according to how I look in the mirror.”

[Phate]

Ronnie, i have a couple questions about this as i find it very interesting

how far are you dropping carbs and what carbs sources are in use during this, and at what time during the day are you using each type of carb source?

is there potential to drop into ketosis on the deload week due to carbs being too low with exercise and cardio intensity high(this of course depends on the answer to the first question so you don't have to answer it if you covered it already?

how much do you increase fats on the deload week?

is there a reduction of carbs/pro and introduction of fat or do you use an all-at-once shock?

do you use any supplements to detox during the deload week?

[kojak_x]

Its funny because I have been doing this since I first started working out. without the steroids of course. Shit...., too much of anything isn't good for the body.

[Ronnie Rowland]

[QUOTE=Phate;4730275]Ronnie, i have a couple questions about this as i find it very interesting

how far are you dropping carbs and what carbs sources are in use during this, and at what time during the day are you using each type of carb source? I use mostly slow burning carbs unelss right after a workout. I am reducing my carbs to 200 on low carb days. High carb/calorie days is anywhere from 400-600 per day (a good baseline is 2-4 grams per pound of body weight depending on metabolism). I am normally around 500.

is there potential to drop into ketosis on the deload week due to carbs being too low with exercise and cardio intensity high(this of course depends on the answer to the first question so you don't have to answer it if you covered it already? No ketosis during a mass phase regardless of body type!

how much do you increase fats on the deload week? I don't count grams to the exact or total calories. I decrease protein by about 200 grams during a deload=800 cals (I normally take in around 400 grams of protein during reload). Notice I cut protein by 50% during the deload!


When coming off a reload I reduce carbs by about 25% on both high carb/cal days and low carb/cal days. During a deload this come out out around 350 carbs (1400 cals) on high carb days (800p+ 1400c =2200 cals divided by 9 for fat requirements means I take in around (245 fat grams) on
high carb/cal day.

On low carb/cal days it's around 25% less carbs than low carb day during a reload so 150 carbs (600 cals from carbs) + 800 cals from protein= 1400 cals divided by 9 totals (156 additional fat grams) on low carb/cal days.

is there a reduction of carbs/pro and introduction of fat or do you use an all-at-once shock? Change all at once when entering a reload or a deload and continue alternating higher carb/cal days with lower carb/cal days in both the reload and deload.

1ST NOTE: Some people do best keeping total cals the same on high carb and low carb days while others stay too bloated trying to eat a lot of food day-in-day-out or get too fat eating high calories every day and need to reduce cals accordingly on low carb days. Experiment to find your sweet spot.

2nd NOTE: If someone cannot stomach a lot of fats during a deload then more carbs can be used in that case but protein intake is always cut to about half.
do you use any supplements to detox during the deload week?Not needed.[/QUOTE]

Great questions Phate! Answers above in bold. It probably sounds more complicated than it really is. It's very simple to put into action!

[Phate]

Great questions Phate! Answers above in bold. It probably sounds more complicated than it really is. It's very simple to put into action!

yeah, i just love the details and such behind those things, lol, thanks for the info Ronnie, always a pleasure reading your stuff

[RANA]

Wow, great post. I will re-read again

[Navy-boi-kai]

a real pleasure reading you material as always. Im on cycle now i think ima do this 2 weeks with 250 grams of protein then drop to about 100 for a week.

[Ronnie Rowland]

a real pleasure reading you material as always. Im on cycle now i think ima do this 2 weeks with 250 grams of protein then drop to about 100 for a week.

Make sure and increase training volume (reload) when you consume 250 grams of protein and decrease training volume (deload) when you drop down to around 100 grams of protein each day for that deload

Note: The biggest guy in our gym does this exact protocol but his high protein weeks are 500 grams per day with low week being 250 per day. He's 260 lbs and continues to grow. He's a natural bodybuilder believe it or not with superior genetics for size/strength.

[Shurik]

I wonder if we can make a detailed lay out like we do for steroid cycle. I think that would make it easier to suck in all the information if its layed out like a graph or somethin.
Example:
wk 1-3 reload
Wk 1 deload
Diet sample, training sample, how many grams of carbs per body pound, etc....
I know most of this stuff is all written in above posts, but I just think it would help a lot of people to lay it out a little. That's just my opinion.

[ranging1]

i just read this about 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight for muscle building
n protein cycling
from what ive read ur basically saying by reducing ur protein intake to 1.5-1 grams of protein per pound for awhile, at same itme bring carbs/fat up or down depending on wat day it is low/high calories
ive read what u think and at same time am sceptical n dont believe thats exactly what occours within the human bodys function and metabalism
first 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, unless ur on large or even huge amount of anabolics, ur body CANNOT utalise that quantity
protein synthesis is depeendent on many functions
glycogen stores
hormone levels
calorie intake
insulin
genetic potential
supplementation
metabalsim
etc etc, ders 2 many to list
to much protein in the body if not used for repair and its other functions is simply converted to glucose or stored as fat (it is a calorie after all)
this is wat occours wen u consume 2 grams per pound of bodyweight a day 99% of the time
it is shown in studies that participants who consumed 150 grams of protein daily, group 1 was on anabolics 300mg testosterome ethanate, group 2 natural
group 1 over 10 weeks gained 14 pounds lean muscle mass on average
group 2 4.1 pounds
both consumed on average same level of calorie consumption with a standard deviation of 50 calories
protein syntheses was 3 times as high for group 1
compared 2 group 2
why? because of anabolics steroids effects, e.g hormone levels, glycogen levels,
even on 150 grams they gained 3 times the level other group did
what im trying to say is consuming that much protein does not reap the level of benefit some believe
also wen cycling calories such as decreasing carbs, increasing fats
by decreasing carbs u lower ur bodys mucle glycogen levels as well as metabalsim, also increasing fats increases hormone levels
wen u do this YES u do become more insulin sensitive because ur bodys use to a high calorie consumption,
ur body now becomes more absorbant to calories (this is also why we have rebund weight gain on many obese people) but also wen u increase ur carb intake following low carb days, u throw huge amounts of carbs into ur body, spiking insulin high (higher protein sythesis) and restore glycogen levels, because u are restoring glycogen levels u can consume more carbs without gaining asmuch fat while similtaniously creating a very anabolic enviroment (remember insulin is a very anabolic hormone) to enable protein synthesism
what im saying is cycling protein intake for awhile while cycyling ur carbs or fat is just changing u macro ratios n making ur body function differently, instead of converting protein in glucose its now burning fat, using more carbohydrates or dipping into its glycogen or fat stores, which all effects ur bodys bio chemistry
all ur doing is turning ur body into a sponge for short bursts of time from the effect of carb and fat intake cycling
the lowering of protein is just giving ur body a break from converting it to glucose
this does not critically effect ur protein synthesis levels
it may have a minor effect but not to a great extent
the body can only utalise so much protein, obviously those who run anabolics (such as myself) will utalise protein much more efficiently then those who are not, also of course other factors of the body play a role but im not going ot list them all day (calorie intake, ratioes, diet, hormone levels etc etc list goes on)
think about it, yes u body does become use to having huge levels of protein and starts burning instead of utalising it, BUT changing ur carb and fat intake directly effect ur protein sythesis levels
eg someone who consumes (grams) 200 carbs, 300 protein and someone who consumes 500 carbs 300 protein, fat lets just say 20% of diet
who will gain more muscle?
obviously the person on higher carbs beause they can train harder, spike higher levels of insulin, maintiian high levels of glycogen, recover faster, higher hormone levels etc
(this is why people gain more muscle on steroids, we can utalise carbs and fat better through higher hormone level, obviously steroids have other effects that contibute aswell)
people on higher carbs may gain more fat but they will gain more muscle and strength on identicall programs
from the idea of protein or carb cycling, ur just preventing the fat gain by cycling ur calorie consumption and allowing for a leaner muscle gain
cycling protein in theory may sound like it works, n it may a little
but it does not have a huge impact
all ur doing is decreasing ur calorie intake (making ur body a bigger sponge) or switching protein for carbs and fat creating a greater anabolic enviroment (increasing ur protein synthesis levels)

IF u think protein decreasing ur protein intake alone will effect ur protein synthesism
levels
eg ur diet is (in grams) 450 carbs, 100 fat, 350 protein
n u change it 2
450 carbs, 100 fat, 250-200 protein or lower if thats wats reccomended
and then switch back to ur previous diet
then try it
that is a diet alone that only changes protein
who thinks itll increase ur muscle gain?
i dont think many
y?
coz ur calories are now lower
most people would say u need to increae fat or carb intake while u decrease protein
why? to make up for the calorie loss
by doing that ur change u body bio chemisty and carbs and fat effect ur body protein synthesim
my point, lowering protein intake has this theorised hyped up anabolic effect
it doesnt, its ur carb and fat intake ,aswell as ur overall calorie intake that effect ur bodys biochemistry that directly effects protein synthesism
alot of people may disagree with me, but i know alot will c my point

[Ronnie Rowland]

i just read this about 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight for muscle building
n protein cycling
from what ive read ur basically saying by reducing ur protein intake to 1.5-1 grams of protein per pound for awhile, at same itme bring carbs/fat up or down depending on wat day it is low/high calories
ive read what u think and at same time am sceptical n dont believe thats exactly what occours within the human bodys function and metabalism
first 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, unless ur on large or even huge amount of anabolics, ur body CANNOT utalise that quantity (I FULLY AGREE WITH YOU IN THAT NOT EVERYONE CAN USE 2 GRAMS OF PROTEIN PER POUND OF BODY WEIGHT BUT THIS THREAD IS MAKING REFERENCE IN HOW TO MAKE THE MOST GAINS OUT OF AN ANABOLIC STEROID CYCLE! NO ONE KNOWS THEIR EXACT PROTEIN NEEDS BUT I BELIEVE IT'S BEST TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF HAVING ENOUGH THAN TOO LITTLE. I HAVE WITNESSED SOME AMAZING TRANSFORMATIONS WITH GUYS USING ANABOLICS ONCE THEY GOT THEIR DIET IN ORDER-MEANING THEY INCREASED BOTH PROTEIN AND CALORIC INTAKE ). THE MAIN GOAL WHILE USING STEROIDS IS TO ADD MASS WHILE MINIMIZING FAT GAINS. IT'S NOT THE DRUG BUT THE DIET THAT MAKES THIS HAPPEN! A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE STILL NOT EATING ENOUGH PROTEIN TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN. It's not the drug but the diet that makes this happen! I believe there are still a lot of people on this board taking steroids that are not consuming enough protein and/or not eating enough calories to make it happen. [/COLOR]
[/B]protein synthesis is depeendent on many functionsglycogen stores
hormone levels
calorie intake
insulin
genetic potential
supplementation
metabalsim
etc etc, ders 2 many to list
to much protein in the body if not used for repair and its other functions is simply converted to glucose or stored as fat (it is a calorie after all)
this is wat occours wen u consume 2 grams per pound of bodyweight a day 99% of the time it is shown in studies that participants who consumed 150 grams of protein daily, group 1 was on anabolics 300mg testosterome ethanate, group 2 natural
group 1 over 10 weeks gained 14 pounds lean muscle mass on average
group 2 4.1 pounds
both consumed on average same level of calorie consumption with a standard deviation of 50 calories
protein syntheses was 3 times as high for group 1
compared 2 group 2
why? because of anabolics steroids effects, e.g hormone levels, glycogen levels,
even on 150 grams they gained 3 times the level other group did
what im trying to say is consuming that much protein does not reap the level of benefit some believe ( 300 MGS OF TEST PER WEEK IS NOT WHAT I CALL AN ANABOLIC STEROID CYCLE. THAT'S A LIGHT BEGINNERS CYCLE AT BEST AND FROM THAT POINT ON- HRT. THIS THREAD IS MAKING REFERENCE TO PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING TO MAX OUT THEIR GENETIC POTENTIAL.
also wen cycling calories such as decreasing carbs, increasing fats
by decreasing carbs u lower ur bodys mucle glycogen levels as well as metabalsim, also increasing fats increases hormone levels
wen u do this YES u do become more insulin sensitive because ur bodys use to a high calorie consumption,
ur body now becomes more absorbant to calories (this is also why we have rebund weight gain on many obese people) but also wen u increase ur carb intake following low carb days, u throw huge amounts of carbs into ur body, spiking insulin high (higher protein sythesis) and restore glycogen levels, because u are restoring glycogen levels u can consume more carbs without gaining asmuch fat while similtaniously creating a very anabolic enviroment (YES!!! THIS IS WHAT I AM TAKING ABOUT!!!) (remember insulin is a very anabolic hormone) to enable protein synthesism
what im saying is cycling protein intake for awhile while cycyling ur carbs or fat is just changing u macro ratios n making ur body function differently, instead of converting protein in glucose its now burning fat, using more carbohydrates or dipping into its glycogen or fat stores, which all effects ur bodys bio chemistry
all ur doing is turning ur body into a sponge for short bursts of time from the effect of carb and fat intake cycling (ABSOLUTELY!)
the lowering of protein is just giving ur body a break from converting it to glucosethis does not critically effect ur protein synthesis levels
it may have a minor effect but not to a great extent (AS WITH EVERYTHING IN BODYBUILDING, THE GAINS OBTAINED FROM PROTEIN CYCLING VARIES FROM ONE INDIVIDUAL TO THE NEXT. ADVANCED TRAINERS ARE LOOKING FOR EVERY EDGE THEY CAN GET. THAT'S WHAT SLINGSHOT TRAINING IS ALL ABOUT-GAINING AN EDGE ON THE COMPETITION)
the body can only utalise so much protein, obviously those who run anabolics (such as myself) will utalise protein much more efficiently then those who are not, (YES) also of course other factors of the body play a role but im not going ot list them all day (calorie intake, ratioes, diet, hormone levels etc etc list goes on) (LET'S NOT FORGET TRAINING VOLUME AND INTENSITY)
think about it, yes u body does become use to having huge levels of protein and starts burning instead of utalising it, BUT changing ur carb and fat intake directly effect ur protein sythesis levels
eg someone who consumes (grams) 200 carbs, 300 protein and someone who consumes 500 carbs 300 protein, fat lets just say 20% of diet
who will gain more muscle?
obviously the person on higher carbs beause they can train harder, spike higher levels of insulin, maintiian high levels of glycogen, recover faster, higher hormone levels etc
(this is why people gain more muscle on steroids, we can utalise carbs and fat better through higher hormone level, obviously steroids have other effects that contibute aswell)
people on higher carbs may gain more fat but they will gain more muscle and strength on identicall programs
from the idea of protein or carb cycling, ur just preventing the fat gain by cycling ur calorie consumption and allowing for a leaner muscle gain (BINGO-THANK YOU!)cycling protein in theory may sound like it works, n it may a little
but it does not have a huge impact [B](HUGE IMPACT, NO! BUT IT DOES CARRY A LARGE ENOUGH IMPACT TO FOLLOW! IT'S THE SUM OF ALL THINGS THAT TOTAL UP IN THE END. /B]all ur doing is decreasing ur calorie intake (making ur body a bigger sponge) or switching protein for carbs and fat creating a greater anabolic enviroment (increasing ur protein synthesis levels) (YES BUT LOWERING PROTEIN DOES HELP THE BODY USE IT MORE EFFICIENTLY WHEN ITS RE-INTRODUCED.!)IF u think protein decreasing ur protein intake alone will effect ur protein synthesism
levels
eg ur diet is (in grams) 450 carbs, 100 fat, 350 protein
n u change it 2
450 carbs, 100 fat, 250-200 protein or lower if thats wats reccomended
and then switch back to ur previous diet
then try it
that is a diet alone that only changes protein
who thinks itll increase ur muscle gain?
i dont think many(I AGREE)
y?
coz ur calories are now lower
most people would say u need to increae fat or carb intake while u decrease protein
why? to make up for the calorie loss
by doing that ur change u body bio chemisty and carbs and fat effect ur body protein synthesim (TRUE!)my point, lowering protein intake has this theorised hyped up anabolic effect
it doesnt, its ur carb and fat intake ,aswell as ur overall calorie intake that effect ur bodys biochemistry that directly effects protein synthesism
alot of people may disagree with me, but i know alot will c my point (AGREED..IT'S A COMBINATION OF ALL OF THE ABOVE THAT INCREASES PROTEIN SYNTHESIS.

Some very good points made by ranging1. My responses are above in bold.

[ninesecz]

In the Mr. Olympia Video I watched a few weeks ago Dexter Jackson was doing his part of the video and while making a Nitro Tech shake the Camera guy Mitz who is the japanese guy who does all the videos asked him aout Protein consumption and he only takes in between 300-350 a day and he weighs close to 300# in the off season So even he is only taking ion just over 1Gpp of BW

[Ronnie Rowland]

In the Mr. Olympia Video I watched a few weeks ago Dexter Jackson was doing his part of the video and while making a Nitro Tech shake the Camera guy Mitz who is the japanese guy who does all the videos asked him aout Protein consumption and he only takes in between 300-350 a day and he weighs close to 300# in the off season So even he is only taking ion just over 1Gpp of BW

If that be the case, then he could get by with cutting back to around 175 grams of protein per day during a deload. Protein requirements, like carb and fat requirements, can vary from one person to the next. But, whose to say Dexter couldn't get even bigger/leaner using 500-600 grams of protein per day during a reload?!?!?

I still believe based upon what I have seen throughout the years that it's best to err on the side of too much protein during a reload (higher volume training phase) if you want to maximize lean muscle gains.

[Ronnie Rowland]

i will try this

The protocol below is helping me gain muscle size at age 43 without putting on a lot of unwated body fat. Protein remains at 1.5-2 grams per pound of body weight until deload week. My reloads are usually 3-4 weeks in duration followed by a 1 week deload. I rarely need 2 weeks of deloading because I have good recovery abilities.


MONDAY-LOW CARBS/HIGH FATS
TUESDAY-HIGH CARBS/LOW FATS
WEDNESDAY-LOW CARBS/HIGH FATS
THURSDAY-HIGH CARBS/LOW FATS
FRIDAY-LOW CARBS/HIGH FATS
SATURDAY-HIGH CARBS/HIGH FATS (CHEAT DAY)
SUNDAY-HIGH CARBS/LOW FATS (I FIND IT'S MUCH EASIER AND MORE EFFECTIVE TO FALL BACK INTO A HIGH CARB DAY FOLLOWING A CHEAT DAY WHEN PUTTING ON SIZE AS OPPOSED TO GOING FROM A CHEAT DAY BACK TO A LOW CARB DAY)


NOTE:The Slingshot Diet is different than mainstream p40/c40/f20 diets. The high fat days alternated with high carb days lead to better lean muscle gains. I was never able to remain this lean while making gains when I ate the same macronutrients every day. I wish I had known about this years ago!

[Ronnie Rowland]

An interesting interview with Nasser El Sonbaty which supports the principles behind the Slingshot Training System!!!" ]



You once said that you can maintain your massive size on as little as 100 grams of protein per day. How exactly do you do this and not lose muscle mass?


I have been in this sport for over 25 years now. And as I mentioned before I have been on diets - strict pre contest diets - for 18 years. I should maybe sit down one day and make a crazy calculation of how many chicken breasts I have consumed in all these years, obviously during dieting more than while training off-season. I just got tired of forever eating protein to keep my size up or building it.

If you are on a high protein and low carb, low fat diet, then you have to bump your protein way up (at least up to 300 grams per diet day; and if you are a very big bodybuilder like myself, then you have sometimes/or at least should take about 600 grams of protein per day) otherwise you shrink too much and the uses its own muscle as fuel.

Because I am so sick and tired of protein as a food source, as amino acids and as supplement drinks I decided to eat more carbs off-season in order to compensate for the lack and the lower amount of protein I am taking in. But again, pre contest I just force feed my body to get the highest possible amount of protein into my system. But off-season I do intentionally neglect my daily protein intake.

If you have no problems taking protein in, just go ahead. The more protein, the better the muscles will build up. My off-season weight goes up to 330 pounds. With a higher protein intake off-season, I probably would be even bigger. Also I do have a so-called mesomorph type of body and was very athletic from beginning. And my metabolism is not too fast and not too slow.

If you are for example more an ectomorph type of person, your metabolism is very fast. You have to then eat way more calories than I do and you have to also eat way more frequently than I do.



[ Q ] How would you describe your style of training?



For the upper body muscle groups I go between four and 15 reps per set regardless if it is pre contest or off-season. I do use the so-called Weider principle of pyramid sets. And if you add way more cardio in the pre contest phase and at the same time reduce your daily carb intake over weeks and months, then you should definitely get in shape.

Off-season I just go with straight sets through the mostly five workouts per week I do. And for each muscle group per workout I do at least one barbell exercise in order to maintain size, but also to stimulate more muscle growth. And if you are using machines too frequently and too often during your workouts, your body definitely won't be a power physique, as it could be with some free weight movements.

Working out with free weights costs more energy and mental strength compared to training with machines and cables. But with free weights you do also experience more muscle pain. And not everyone can take the pain in the workouts.

You can train hard and short but not hard and long. After mostly 90 minutes of lifting weights I am out of the gym or start my post workout cardio. I do cardio on an empty stomach only during pre contest otherwise I do cardio after my weight lifting sessions.





[ Q ] Most bodybuilders seem to have a different opinion on what training system works and what doesn't. What training system do you think is the most effective for building massive size that can be used by most bodybuilders, beginner and advanced?



Personally I started using the so-called pyramid principal as mentioned, which basically means I start out with a lighter weight doing around 15 reps, then the second set would be ten to 12 reps increasing the weight, the next set would be maybe six to eight reps and up again with the weight.

The fourth and final set would be four to six reps with the heaviest weight. Or I might do a fifth set and this might look like the second set, where I decrease the weight and increase the repetitions. This is what I have used over the years and for me the results are most effective".