Are all "Senior" and "Veteran" members on board with 8 week only cycles?

[07sandiegomuscle]

It was posted and agreed upon by several "Senior" and "Veteran" members in this forum about doing no more than 8 week cycles, is that universal aas law? Everyone is writing about their 8+ week cycles they are on or are going to be on. Is the no more than 8 week cycle advice bunk or not? I am just trying to become knowledgeable, thanks.

[lovbyts]

Whree are you reading this and what kind of cycle are you talking about.
Orals should be no more than 4 weeks
Test should be no less than 10 - 14 weeks
Deca should be 10-12 weeks

it all depends on what you are talking about.

[07sandiegomuscle]

Whree are you reading this and what kind of cycle are you talking about.
Orals should be no more than 4 weeks
Test should be no less than 10 - 14 weeks
Deca should be 10-12 weeks

it all depends on what you are talking about.

Ronnie Rowland who is an "AR Hall of Famer" posted in the top thread he titled "You'll want to read this!" on the "Questions and Answers" Forum quote:

"KEEP ANABOLIC STEROID CYCLES/PRO-HORMONE CYCLES AT 8 WEEKS!"

"Anabolics have been shown to work best for appoximately 8 weeks. After that point, additional muscle gains slow dramatically and you would need to use higher amounts drugs or supplements to advance further."

[lovbyts]

True, that is the NEW recommended optimal cycle length but I will still run mine 10 to get what I can out of it. The effects diminish after 8 weeks according to Ronnie BUT they dont stop...

[Bojangles69]

True, that is the NEW recommended optimal cycle length but I will still run mine 10 to get what I can out of it. The effects diminish after 8 weeks according to Ronnie BUT they dont stop...

this

[Bojangles69]

Ronnie can bite it.
"Dramatically"? I think hes just dramatic. I felt great till I stopped after week 12

[Bojangles69]

& WTf are his credentials? lol, seriously I think he just gets paid to write but may not also be the only authority on the subject. "Dramatically diminish" is to subjective a term w/out data which he doesnt provide. So hes basically just stating an opinion, not fact. Even if he had data its STILL not a fact.

[Ronnie Rowland]

& WTf are his credentials? lol, seriously I think he just gets paid to write but may not also be the only authority on the subject. "Dramatically diminish" is to subjective a term w/out data which he doesnt provide. So hes basically just stating an opinion, not fact. Even if he had data its STILL not a fact.

Wow..It's nice to see you know so much about me...lol

1) I am not being paid anything to write on this site.

2) I have been working at various gyms over the past 24 years. I help train over 90% of the big guys at my gyms. Why do they come to me for advice? It's because I have 24 years of experience experience, I practive what I preach and I look the part. I'm not some ghost writer sitting behind a computer terminal. I'm not afraid to show my face!

3) I am not the only person on here with ideas. We vets work as a team and give out the best advice we can. No one is going to agree 100% on everythnig including us vets. If you disagree with Slingshot Training them by all means don't practice it.

[ranging1]

he reccomendeds 8 weeek cycle becuase generally most compounds are the most effective during this time, since the bodys receptors are most sensitive to steroids

u can know this just by taking 4 weeks of dbol to kickstart off ur cycle, weeks 1-3 u feel the dbol get stronger, but usually by week 4 people get use to the dbol pumps and the back pumps become less, this is becuase the bodys receptors are already becoming less sensitive by week 4

most people also notice their gains are best weeks 1 -6, some go to 8, most people after week 8 still gain but the rate they gain at is nowhere near what they did in the start due to the longer their on, the less sensitive the body is to effects of steroids

u can still gain after week 8, but most people if not all will find the gains taper off the longer their on a cycle, thats why alot increase their dosages towards the end, which isnt a good idea since ur giving urself more chance of side effects for minimal extra muscle gains since ur receptors have lost ALOT of their sensitivity

the longer u are on the also more prone to side effects u are, since ur not reaping the same level of muscle building effects of steroids, but still getting ALL if not more side effects

shorter cycles also allow a better HPTA recovery becuase the hpta is shutdown for a shorter time, allowing for easier recovery, the longer ur on a cycle the harder it is to recover from a cycle

however their are some compounds that should and usually need longer cycle lengths such as Deca nandralone ,since they are a longer acting ester, so their effects cant be felt till later in the cycle, this isnt bad becuase since its a longer acting ester it doesant have a huge effect on ur receptors in the start of a cycle since it hasnt built up in ur system yet

therefore it wont make ur receptors less sensitive early in the cycle, which is why i can be run longer and usually has to be run longer

cycle lengths can vary, alot of peole find 6 week cycles best, some find 8, some 12, some 16, it all depends on what u run, and how ur bodys growing, goals, not to mention ur diet and training

leaning cycles can usually be run longer then mass cycles since the steroid dosages are usually lower and since ur goal isnt to gain mass, u dont need to worry about ur bodys becoming less sensitive to steroids asmuch, since u dont need their full muscle building effect for the whole cycle, just their ability to protect muscle mass

[Merc.]

he reccomendeds 8 weeek cycle becuase generally most compounds are the most effective during this time, since the bodys receptors are most sensitive to steroids

u can know this just by taking 4 weeks of dbol to kickstart off ur cycle, weeks 1-3 u feel the dbol get stronger, but usually by week 4 people get use to the dbol pumps and the back pumps become less, this is becuase the bodys receptors are already becoming less sensitive by week 4

most people also notice their gains are best weeks 1 -6, some go to 8, most people after week 8 still gain but the rate they gain at is nowhere near what they did in the start due to the longer their on, the less sensitive the body is to effects of steroids

u can still gain after week 8, but most people if not all will find the gains taper off the longer their on a cycle, thats why alot increase their dosages towards the end, which isnt a good idea since ur giving urself more chance of side effects for minimal extra muscle gains since ur receptors have lost ALOT of their sensitivity

the longer u are on the also more prone to side effects u are, since ur not reaping the same level of muscle building effects of steroids, but still getting ALL if not more side effects

shorter cycles also allow a better HPTA recovery becuase the hpta is shutdown for a shorter time, allowing for easier recovery, the longer ur on a cycle the harder it is to recover from a cycle

however their are some compounds that should and usually need longer cycle lengths such as Deca nandralone ,since they are a longer acting ester, so their effects cant be felt till later in the cycle, this isnt bad becuase since its a longer acting ester it doesant have a huge effect on ur receptors in the start of a cycle since it hasnt built up in ur system yet

therefore it wont make ur receptors less sensitive early in the cycle, which is why i can be run longer and usually has to be run longer

cycle lengths can vary, alot of peole find 6 week cycles best, some find 8, some 12, some 16, it all depends on what u run, and how ur bodys growing, goals, not to mention ur diet and training

leaning cycles can usually be run longer then mass cycles since the steroid dosages are usually lower and since ur goal isnt to gain mass, u dont need to worry about ur bodys becoming less sensitive to steroids asmuch, since u dont need their full muscle building effect for the whole cycle, just their ability to protect muscle mass

Say Huh ???

My response in blue below ...

shorter cycles also allow a better HPTA recovery becuase the hpta is shutdown for a shorter time,

Depends on the compund ... 1 -100 mg shot of deca can shut you down ( HPTA) as where it can take serveral weeks for test to shut ya down .. Plus it can take a lot longer to recover from than test..



he reccomendeds 8 weeek cycle becuase generally most compounds are the most effective during this time, since the bodys receptors are most sensitive to steroids


Androgen receptors dont down regulate .. They actually increase in the presence of of more androgen's...

What shuts down growth is the build up of other reaction factors such as cortisol , glycogen and SHBG that brings the body back into homeostasis..



however their are some compounds that should and usually need longer cycle lengths such as Deca nandralone ,since they are a longer acting ester, so their effects cant be felt till later in the cycle, this isnt bad becuase since its a longer acting ester it doesant have a huge effect on ur receptors in the start of a cycle since it hasnt built up in ur system yet


Deca is a hard compound on HPTA ... Again 1 -100 mg shot of deca can shut you down ( HPTA) .. I mean shut you down ..

[ranging1]

Say Huh ???

My response in blue below ...

shorter cycles also allow a better HPTA recovery becuase the hpta is shutdown for a shorter time,

Depends on the compund ... 1 -100 mg shot of deca can shut you down ( HPTA) as where it can take serveral weeks for test to shut ya down .. Plus it can take a lot longer to recover from than test..

yes ur right, but what im refering to is the length of ANY CYCLE AND COMPOUND since runnning any compund for say 8-10 weeks would be less harsh on ur HPTA then 20 weeks, the applies ot any steroid

he reccomendeds 8 weeek cycle becuase generally most compounds are the most effective during this time, since the bodys receptors are most sensitive to steroids


Androgen receptors dont down regulate .. They actually increase in the presence of of more androgen's...

yes ur right, didnt mean to put receptors as the reason, other factors such as tolerance to glucose etc

What shuts down growth is the build up of other reaction factors such as cortisol , glycogen and SHBG that brings the body back into homeostasis..



however their are some compounds that should and usually need longer cycle lengths such as Deca nandralone ,since they are a longer acting ester, so their effects cant be felt till later in the cycle, this isnt bad becuase since its a longer acting ester it doesant have a huge effect on ur receptors in the start of a cycle since it hasnt built up in ur system yet


Deca is a hard compound on HPTA ... Again 1 -100 mg shot of deca can shut you down ( HPTA) .. I mean shut you down ..

i dont c how that related to my comment lol, u just repeated what u said above lol

MY RESPONSE IN RED

[in2shape]

so hearing these views why would 1 run var or winnie in week 8-12 leading into pct of a 10 week test cyp cycle ??? if gears deminishing etc???? is it the case that adding anothr compound is creating more gear in the system ????

or ????

views ???

[in2shape]

so hearing these views why would 1 run var or winnie in week 8-12 leading into pct of a 10 week test cyp cycle ??? if gears deminishing etc???? is it the case that adding anothr compound is creating more gear in the system ????

or ????

views ???

great read here fellas any info on my Q above??

[Swifto]

Say Huh ???

My response in blue below ...

shorter cycles also allow a better HPTA recovery becuase the hpta is shutdown for a shorter time,

Depends on the compund ... 1 -100 mg shot of deca can shut you down ( HPTA) as where it can take serveral weeks for test to shut ya down .. Plus it can take a lot longer to recover from than test..



he reccomendeds 8 weeek cycle becuase generally most compounds are the most effective during this time, since the bodys receptors are most sensitive to steroids


Androgen receptors dont down regulate .. They actually increase in the presence of of more androgen's...

What shuts down growth is the build up of other reaction factors such as cortisol , glycogen and SHBG that brings the body back into homeostasis..



however their are some compounds that should and usually need longer cycle lengths such as Deca nandralone ,since they are a longer acting ester, so their effects cant be felt till later in the cycle, this isnt bad becuase since its a longer acting ester it doesant have a huge effect on ur receptors in the start of a cycle since it hasnt built up in ur system yet


Deca is a hard compound on HPTA ... Again 1 -100 mg shot of deca can shut you down ( HPTA) .. I mean shut you down ..

Testosterone preperations will shut you down in days, not weeks my friend. After one 200mg shot of Test Enan in this study, this is what happend:

"Plasma concentrations of both LH and FSH decreased rapidly after the first TE injection; a significant decline in LH was detectable after 24 h. Mean levels of both gonadotropins decreased to less than 0.5 U/L by the end of 4 weeks and to below the limit of sensitivity of the assays (0.05 IU/L) by 12 weeks."

[chuckt12345]

Testosterone preperations will shut you down in days, not weeks my friend. After one 200mg shot of Test Enan in this study, this is what happend:

"Plasma concentrations of both LH and FSH decreased rapidly after the first TE injection; a significant decline in LH was detectable after 24 h. Mean levels of both gonadotropins decreased to less than 0.5 U/L by the end of 4 weeks and to below the limit of sensitivity of the assays (0.05 IU/L) by 12 weeks."

umm that study says concentrations lower right away not shut down

[Swifto]

umm that study says concentrations lower right away not shut down

"Decreased rapidly..." and "Significant decline...", dont mean much else IMHO. I dont have the full paper to hand, but I may be able to get it free.

When LH and FSH decrease enough, even after 24hours, the testes are no longer being stimulated. Testicular dysfunction is then able to set in rapidly.

Testosterone preperations will reduce endogenous T to hypogondal levels in days, not weeks.

A 50mg Test Enan shot reduced LH by 65% and FSH 62% in this study.

If you have any other data, I'd like to read it.

[Merc.]

Testosterone preperations will shut you down in days, not weeks my friend. After one 200mg shot of Test Enan in this study, this is what happend:

"Plasma concentrations of both LH and FSH decreased rapidly after the first TE injection; a significant decline in LH was detectable after 24 h. Mean levels of both gonadotropins decreased to less than 0.5 U/L by the end of 4 weeks and to below the limit of sensitivity of the assays (0.05 IU/L) by 12 weeks."

Man I miss the old days with these good debates .( which we can all learn from )..

Anyways keep in mind that about 50% of published articles on Pubmed are wrong ( I work in a lab and this number comes from some of the top Scientist we have working there ).. I will start a thread that has tons of info on determing if a study is legit or not..

So I am sure we could go back and forth on studies all day .. That said check out this one ..

Testosterone suppression of the HPT axis.MacIndoe JH, Perry PJ, Yates WR, Holman TL, Ellingrod VL, Scott SD.
Department of Psychiatry, College of Medicine, University of Iowa, Iowa City, USA.

BACKGROUND: Although studies have demonstrated the suppression of normal gonadal function in the experimental setting, the specific mechanisms by which androgenic-anabolic steroids impact male gonadal function remain ill defined. Following 2 consecutive weekly injections of an identically appearing testosterone cypionate (TC) placebo, subjects were randomized to a TC dose of 100 mg/wk, 250 mg/wk, or 500 mg/wk. Following the last weekly injection of active agent the subjects received 12 consecutive weeks of TC placebo injections. RESULTS: Spermatogenesis was impaired by each of the doses of TC employed in this study, but the observed decreases in, sperm count were neither strictly dose dependent nor consistent between individuals treated with the same dose. Basal leuteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) became undetectable 2 weeks after the start of 250 and 500 mg/wk TC injections and were lost within 5 to 6 weeks of starting 100 mg doses. Pituitary gonadotropin responses to leutinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) disappeared more slowly with FSH responses being lost 1 to 3 weeks after the loss of basal FSH activity. Leuteinizing hormone responses to LHRH appeared to be suppressed last, disappearing 4 to 6 weeks after FSH responses to LHRH. CONCLUSIONS: Exogenous testosterone-mediated inhibitory influences on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis were reversed following the cessation of drug treatment.

PMID: 9394096 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]..........



I didnt highlight any part of the study because I wanted you to read the whole thing ..

So this study states that one hundred mgs of test per week takes about 5-6 weeks to shut down HPTA... and 250-500mgs shuts you down by week two ..

Great Discussion Swifto ...




Merc.

[Ronnie Rowland]

he reccomendeds 8 weeek cycle becuase generally most compounds are the most effective during this time, since the bodys receptors are most sensitive to steroids

their gains are best weeks 1 -6, some go to 8, most people after week 8 still gain but the rate they gain at is nowhere near what they did in the start due to the longer their on, the less sensitive the body is to effects of steroids

I fully agree ranging! Merc is also correct in his statement in one of his post below where he says receptor do not down-regulate. However, I have found that receptors can become saturated to the point the body becomes desensitized.


Think about this- when high amounts of androgenic anabolics steroids such as testosterone enanthate are introduced into the body, maximum receptor site stimualtion occurs during the first 3-8 weeks. After having been on test for around 8 weeks your libido will begin to level out and eventually decline as will your muscle growth as these receptor sites adjust to the exogenous testoserone. It's during this 3-8 week period of enhanced libido that maximum muscle growth occurs! Some of you will make the majority of your gains during weeks 3-6 while others will gain more during week 5-8.

[marcus300]

There is no set rule on how long a cycle should be, you need to try various cycle lengths to see which one you respond better to, over many years Ive tried many different dosages and cycle lengths and for me I know which I prefer for sides vs gains.

Being on cycle for many weeks doesn't mean bigger or more gains sometimes it means more sides and harder recovery, so finding out when your gains peak and when they start to deteriorate off is a good indication when the ideal length is for you.

Personally Ive always preferred shorter cycles linked to a prime, these give me excellent gains and faster recover ( thats when i was recovering, now on HRT) which is far better than putting your body under all that stress for a large number of weeks for the same kind of gains, understanding how you grow and using methods to enhance this will give you huge gains, its all a learning curve!

[Narkissos]

There is no set rule on how long a cycle should be, you need to try various cycle lengths to see which one you respond better to, over many years Ive tried many different dosages and cycle lengths and for me I know which I prefer for sides vs gains.

Agreed.

[stpete]

Minimum 12-14 weeks for me. I've never ran a 8 week cycle and don't plan on it. I read Ronnie's article a few weeks back and it make sense and i might try it one day, but right now i'm pleased with my current schedule.

[lovbyts]

My cycle has been for the last year+
Ohh yeah, that's HRT with a couple 10 weeks cycles in between

[Swifto]

I've done cycles as long as 16 weeks and oral cycles lasting 6 weeks.

Long esters need to be run for 10+ weeks. Enanthate "kicks in" for me around the 6-9 week mark. So stopping at 8 weeks is counterproductive.

Cycles should not be kept at "8 weeks". The ester, compounds and goals of the individual should determine the cycle length.

[Big]

I've done cycles as long as 16 weeks and oral cycles lasting 6 weeks.

Long esters need to be run for 10+ weeks. Enanthate "kicks in" for me around the 6-9 week mark. So stopping at 8 weeks is counterproductive.

Cycles should not be kept at "8 weeks". The ester, compounds and goals of the individual should determine the cycle length.

exactly.

[Merc.]

I've done cycles as long as 16 weeks and oral cycles lasting 6 weeks.

Long esters need to be run for 10+ weeks. Enanthate "kicks in" for me around the 6-9 week mark. So stopping at 8 weeks is counterproductive.

Cycles should not be kept at "8 weeks". The ester, compounds and goals of the individual should determine the cycle length.

I Agree with you .. I have seen it over and over ^^^^ ...

But I must also say that when linked to a proper prime ( as Marcus stated) I have seen some peeps make some dam soild gains in 8-9 weeks ..


Merc.

[chuckt12345]

yea 8 wks or actually kick in time maybe if its a long ester
so you have to take it 4 wks prior to the 8

[Booz]

each to their own...

Personally 8 weeks of a longer ester unless it was a high dose shortburst cycle wouldnt be aby god for me,
as Swifty stated longer esters dont do nowt for me till week 6-9 either...............

[Ronnie Rowland]

each to their own...

Personally 8 weeks of a longer ester unless it was a high dose shortburst cycle wouldnt be aby god for me,
as Swifty stated longer esters dont do nowt for me till week 6-9 either...............

When high amounts of androgenic anabolics steroids such as testosterone enanthate are introduced into the body, maximum receptor site stimualtion occurs during the first 3-8 weeks. After having been on test for around 8 weeks your libido will begin to decline as will your muscle growth as these receptor sites adjust to the exogenous testoserone. It's during this 3-8 week period of enhanced libido that maximum muscle growth occurs! Some of you will make the majority of your gains during weeks 3-6 while others will gain more during week 5-8.

[Swifto]

When high amounts of androgenic anabolics steroids such as testosterone enanthate are introduced into the body, maximum receptor site stimualtion occurs during the first 3-8 weeks. After having been on test for around 8 weeks your libido will begin to decline as will your muscle growth as these receptor sites adjust to the exogenous testoserone. It's during this 3-8 week period of enhanced libido that maximum muscle growth occurs! Some of you will make the majority of your gains during weeks 3-6 while others will gain more during week 5-8.

For some users, this may be true, but for myself and others, its not.

My labido does not decline, but if it did, I'd put it down to elevated estrogen or prolactin or a decline in endogenous DHEA and/or Pregnenolone.

Again, my gains seem to come in late my friend.

[Ronnie Rowland]

For some users, this may be true, but for myself and others, its not.

My labido does not decline, but if it did, I'd put it down to elevated estrogen or prolactin or a decline in endogenous DHEA and/or Pregnenolone.

Again, my gains seem to come in late my friend.

Swifto, when do your gains come during a cycle?

Can you give me a sample cycle and when you make the most gains and I will show you how I would apply it to Slingshot Training.

thank you!

Ronnie

[Swifto]

Swifto, when do your gains come during a cycle?

Can you give me a sample cycle and when you make the most gains and I will show you how I would apply it to Slingshot Training.

thank you!

Ronnie

My gains in strength and LBM seem to come after week 6-8, thats if I was using a long acting ester, like Enanthate. I do gain additional strength before then and water weight if not using an AI, but its not like the increases I get after weeks 6-8. It then carries on for a further 5-6 weeks, then will tail off if I dont add a compound or increase the dose(s).

I use a similar program to the sling shot program (peroidization), that adds volume and reduces it. I also incorperate HIT during the "deload" for around 3-4 weeks, then go back to adding volume for a further 4-5 weeks.

[Ronnie Rowland]

For some users, this may be true, but for myself and others, its not.

My labido does not decline, but if it did, I'd put it down to elevated estrogen or prolactin or a decline in endogenous DHEA and/or Pregnenolone.

Again, my gains seem to come in late my friend.

My increase in libido certainly levels out within 8 weeks but it doesnt decline until later down the road. I should have been more clear with that statement..Thanks for bringing that too my attention!

[07sandiegomuscle]

So Ronnie, with you comments about 8 week cycles you are not saying you think all cycles/recommended cycles should be revised to 8 weeks? But you are just putting forth a whole other way to take gear and gain muscle, which is mostly aimed to builders who are on gear a lot of the year? I understand the 8 week load and the 2 week deload concept. But what is the exact gear regimen? When do you quit? When you are not using gear do you still lift weights like you recommend- with fewer sets that is contrary to the way most people lift right now these days? Thanks

[Hatchman33]

each to their own...

Personally 8 weeks of a longer ester unless it was a high dose shortburst cycle wouldnt be aby god for me,
as Swifty stated longer esters dont do nowt for me till week 6-9 either...............

That is why it is good to get test prop or a fast acting test that will get you instant results till the slow esters kick in 6 to 9 weeks down the road.

[dd0316]

Someone said that longer cycles yield more side effects.
although i dont have a medical degree, id disagree with this.
The longer you are one, the longer your body has to adjust and return to homeostasis. I know many people that stay on cycle for a year, have zero sides, and come off and recover fine. Blood work to Prove it. And from what ive heard from them, around week 16-20, their body starts to steady out and although gains become less dramatic, they are consistent week by week with no side effects

[chuckt12345]

id say there suppresed right away but the term shut down wouldnt occur until much later

[Swifto]

id say there suppresed right away but the term shut down wouldnt occur until much later

When is the HPTA really "shutdown" though? Even on HRT, LH and FSH arnt zero.

"Shutdown" is a tricky term to use IMHO. In theory, ganadotrophins are never fully shutdown - zero. But the term shutdown IMHO, should be used when LH and FSH have been reduced enough, that testicular dysfunction will begin to set in. That is days, not after X amount of weeks.

I've showed that even after one single 50mg Test Enan shot, LH and FSH were reduced both by over 60%. You havent showed anything, bar speculating.

[AlphaMaleDawg]

i actually feel like I made better progress week 8-10 of my test-e cycle. call me crazy but thats what it seems like. my arms look better at least

[Ronnie Rowland]

i actually feel like I made better progress week 8-10 of my test-e cycle. call me crazy but thats what it seems like. my arms look better at least

You are not crazy. You are very accurate! All of my clients hit a second growth spurt when they deload from weeks 8-10. They also make gains during weeks 3-8 when reloading.

[Merc.]

Here is a link to the thread I said I would start ( with some soild info on doing research )..


http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=405145