Supplements to Compliment TRT

**Vettester** · 07-14-2010, 09:25 PM

I know we have a supplement forum, but I kind of want to hear from the HRT crowd on this one. What types of supplements, vitamins, natural enhancements do you use? Suggest? Can't live without? What types of products helps make one's TRT program balanced and more versatile? I eat the right things, no drinking/smoking, in the gym with at least 4 - 5x week ... But what am I missing?

I've recently learned a lot just off of some of the responses I've got on my TRT thread about products like Niacin, and the correct type and amount to take for helping with LDL/HDL. So, I will be adding that to my routine shortly.

Here's some of the things I take:
Vitacell (liquid) from MM
Glucosamine
Amino Sculpt (I really liked this stuff, great for skin, nails, hair)
EFA's
Lean Pro Matrix -34g Protein Powder
ARM from MM (once in awhile as a PWO shake)
Injection B12 (A must IMO for those on TRT)
Melatonin - For sleep
UDCA - On occasion for liver support.

If I missed something I'll add it in later. I always wonder if there's other various vitamins or amino acids that I don't get enough of because the manufacturers of these products only put in limited amounts, or I'm just simply overlooking the obvious.

What are some of the things you use and recommend others to use? Is there something you swear by that is the best (brand and/or quality)? What things can we use to get the most out of our TRT program??

**casberger** · 07-14-2010, 10:13 PM

I just take the basics...

Fish oil
Protein powder (whey and casein)
Multivitamin (Optimen)
Glucosamine
Pre-workout booster (Jack3d)
Red Yeast rice (for cholesterol)
Milk Thistle (for liver support)
Hawthorn Berry (good for heart strength, skin)
Vit b12 Injections
Phenibut (occasionally for sleep)
PEA (for a good buzz once in a while lol)
Kelp (trying to see if it will cure my thyroid issues naturally)

**Vettester** · 07-14-2010, 10:38 PM

Casberger, what is PEA?

I also take some liver support on occasion, but I take UDCA. Not as much now, but was taking more so when I was running Anavar .

Red Yeast Rice? OK, that's a new one on me too. Does it do a good job? I've got that, Niacin, and a Oatmeal/Cinnamon Shake (as recommended on my other thread) to take for cholesterol.

**casberger** · 07-14-2010, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

Casberger, what is PEA?

I also take some liver support on occasion, but I take UDCA. Not as much now, but was taking more so when I was running Anavar .

Red Yeast Rice? OK, that's a new one on me too. Does it do a good job? I've got that, Niacin, and a Oatmeal/Cinnamon Shake (as recommended on my other thread) to take for cholesterol.

PEA is Phenethylamine. It is the chemical found in chocolate. It is a natural stimulant unlike anything I have tried. I take 2grams and it gives me a good buzz that lasts a half hour. Sometimes I take 1gram pre-workout to improve my mind/muscle concentration.

Yeah Red Yeast Rice is a spice thats been eaten in china for over 500 years. The yeast contains substances called monocolins, which lower cholesterol by inhibiting cholesterol production in the liver in the same manner as prescription statin drugs.

I just had my bloodwork results come back and here is what my cholesterol looked like:
Triglyceride 41 range 30-200
Cholesterol, Serum 108 range 50-200
HDL 40 range 32-96
LDL 59.8 range 0-130
I have never had a problem with cholesterol but my last labs showed that my cholesterol was elevated. I started taking the red yeast rice, eating more fish oil, eating more fiber. Im not sure if its a combination of everything I have been doing but something worked.

**megustatetas** · 07-15-2010, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by casberger

PEA is Phenethylamine. It is the chemical found in chocolate. It is a natural stimulant unlike anything I have tried. I take 2grams and it gives me a good buzz that lasts a half hour. Sometimes I take 1gram pre-workout to improve my mind/muscle concentration.

Yeah Red Yeast Rice is a spice thats been eaten in china for over 500 years. The yeast contains substances called monocolins, which lower cholesterol by inhibiting cholesterol production in the liver in the same manner as prescription statin drugs.

I just had my bloodwork results come back and here is what my cholesterol looked like:
Triglyceride 41 range 30-200
Cholesterol, Serum 108 range 50-200
HDL 40 range 32-96
LDL 59.8 range 0-130
I have never had a problem with cholesterol but my last labs showed that my cholesterol was elevated. I started taking the red yeast rice, eating more fish oil, eating more fiber. Im not sure if its a combination of everything I have been doing but something worked.

great numbers on cholesterol, i know some of us would kill for those values. Careful on the red yeast rice, as the US has cracked down on it, forcing the importers to remove the natural ingredient which it turns out is identical to lovastatin. the FDA ruled that the importers had to remove monocolins to sell it as a supplement. Kind of invalidates the patent of lovastatin if u can get the same thing naturally of much less...some states have fought that and others not, so not all is the same. It mostly all comes from china where it is used for many things.

I would add one more basic supp to the list CO-Q10 as its is a great protector of the heart and has also anti-oxi properties. at least 100mg a day unless you are known to have CVD or other circu issues.

Lastly i put up this link to show the 7 factors in heart and CV issues, note the connection of thyroid levels to cholesterol profiles also.

**eregitano** · 07-15-2010, 08:26 AM

Musts:
Fish Oil
Protein (Whey and Casein)
ZMA (Supports Natural Test production) A must for TRT IMO
Joint Fuel
Pre workout booster (Jakd 3d)
Amions

Occaisonal
Creatine
Glutamine

**eregitano** · 07-15-2010, 08:28 AM

What are the benefits of a b-12 shot and TRT? Why not b-12 pills in lue of another injection?

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by eregitano

What are the benefits of a b-12 shot and TRT? Why not b-12 pills in lue of another injection?

A lot of people don't have sufficient intrinsic factor, thus oral B12 won't absorb properly, in some cases might not absorb at all. Injection B12 obviously doesn't have to go that route, and the absorption rate is superior.

B12 is a great compliment to TRT ... Nervous system, brain function, metabolism ... That's just to name a few. As mentioned in my other thread, I'm going to start running the Methylcobalamin, which looks to be even better.

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by megustatetas

I would add one more basic supp to the list CO-Q10 as its is a great protector of the heart and has also anti-oxi properties. at least 100mg a day unless you are known to have CVD or other circu issues.

Lastly i put up this link to show the 7 factors in heart and CV issues, note the connection of thyroid levels to cholesterol profiles also.

This is exactly what I was hoping to achieve by starting this thread. CO-Q10 ... I would have never guess because I don't even know what the hell that is, but now I can throw this on my spreadsheet and do some further research.

Megburn, I didn't see a link attachment. Would enjoy reading if you have it.

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 10:03 AM

Curious with how much Vitamin C a person should be taking daily. Doubt I get near enough with my mulit-vitamin and the food I eat.

I've seen a few posts by nOObs about this and other vitamins, hoping he will chime in.

**eregitano** · 07-15-2010, 10:18 AM

I've actually heard from guys at the gym that this was a good b 12 product because it dissolves immediately, therefore absorbed well.

**eregitano** · 07-15-2010, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

A lot of people don't have sufficient intrinsic factor, thus oral B12 won't absorb properly, in some cases might not absorb at all. Injection B12 obviously doesn't have to go that route, and the absorption rate is superior.

B12 is a great compliment to TRT ... Nervous system, brain function, metabolism ... That's just to name a few. As mentioned in my other thread, I'm going to start running the Methylcobalamin, which looks to be even better.

approx how many mcg's do you inject of b-12 per week? Is the methylcobalamim you're looking at doing also injectable?

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by eregitano

approx how many mcg's do you inject of b-12 per week? Is the methylcobalamim you're looking at doing also injectable?

I've just been taking 1000mcg with my weekly "T" shot. I'll start out the same with the new stuff, but might consider increasing to 2 shots per week.

**Also, I noticed the links that were posted got removed. We've got a supplement sponsor on this site, so the links may have had a conflict. Apologies if any lines were crossed.

**BillyBob210** · 07-15-2010, 10:52 AM

Whey and casein
Fish oil
Multi
C
L-Arginine - makes for a good pump in the gym
D- Prescription
Caffiene
Zinc

I too am curious about the B-12 shot

**megustatetas** · 07-15-2010, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

This is exactly what I was hoping to achieve by starting this thread. CO-Q10 ... I would have never guess because I don't even know what the hell that is, but now I can throw this on my spreadsheet and do some further research.

Megburn, I didn't see a link attachment. Would enjoy reading if you have it.

that "Megburn" got me laughing.....

http://www.lef.org/protocols/heart_c...lerosis_01.htm
not sure what happened to the first link but here is a different one that covers the same ground.

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by BillyBob210

Whey and casein
Fish oil
Multi
C
L-Arginine - makes for a good pump in the gym
D- Prescription
Caffiene
Zinc

I too am curious about the B-12 shot

I think it was nOObs that has some serious reservations with caffeine and/or coffee. Got to admit, I do my one cup in the morning thing like a lot of guys do. Again, if nOObs jumps in he might be able to explain why this is not a good thing.

On the L-Arginine ... Do you take that prior to working out? Is there anything else you take if for besides the "pump"?

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by megustatetas

that "Megburn" got me laughing.....

http://www.lef.org/protocols/heart_c...lerosis_01.htm
not sure what happened to the first link but here is a different one that covers the same ground.

Thanks!!!

**n00bs** · 07-15-2010, 11:22 AM

I did one better mate, i started a thread/// Caffeine bad... Really?

Anyway stinging nettle root is a must i take this product..

Twice i have run out of it while on TRT. those two times i have broken out massivley with acne on my face when i ran out for 2 days...Coincidence? Dont think so...

I also take b12 shots going to do eod now..

Multi twice daily is a must. (with NO IRON)
Milk thistle optional
Dimplus i think is a must

Dropped my oestrogen alot of points!

Other then that it is the same as anything else...

Aminos
Alot of vitmain c
.....
Magnesium morning night after meals
Zinc after lunch

I wouldnt uspplement L-arginine specifically, AAKG has been shown to increase arginine levels better then L-arginine itself..

**Times Roman** · 07-15-2010, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by casberger

PEA is Phenethylamine. It is the chemical found in chocolate. It is a natural stimulant unlike anything I have tried. I take 2grams and it gives me a good buzz that lasts a half hour. Sometimes I take 1gram pre-workout to improve my mind/muscle concentration.

Yeah Red Yeast Rice is a spice thats been eaten in china for over 500 years. The yeast contains substances called monocolins, which lower cholesterol by inhibiting cholesterol production in the liver in the same manner as prescription statin drugs.

I just had my bloodwork results come back and here is what my cholesterol looked like:
Triglyceride 41 range 30-200
Cholesterol, Serum 108 range 50-200
HDL 40 range 32-96
LDL 59.8 range 0-130
I have never had a problem with cholesterol but my last labs showed that my cholesterol was elevated. I started taking the red yeast rice, eating more fish oil, eating more fiber. Im not sure if its a combination of everything I have been doing but something worked.

I'm surpised it's not a controlled substance (PEA). I'm not sure how you take it, but I purchased 25 grams once for next to nothing... very very pure, white powdery substance, same consistancy as another street drug. It will absolutely blow your sox off if taken the same was as the street drug.

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 11:38 AM

nOObs, great stuff, thanks!!! That caffeine post is awesome!! I will go through it tooth and nail.

How much vitamin C do you suggest? I'm going to up it quite a bit for the niacin, but is there a normal amount people should be taking regardless?

**n00bs** · 07-15-2010, 11:43 AM

Add 1 gram per day (100% asorbic acid)
When you reach bowel problems drop 1g and that is your theraputic dosage...

On another board someone has cancer, they are tkaing 35g orally a day no bowel problems.. Some people get to 12 some 7 some 5..

Depends on you as everyone is different..

**BillyBob210** · 07-15-2010, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

I think it was nOObs that has some serious reservations with caffeine and/or coffee. Got to admit, I do my one cup in the morning thing like a lot of guys do. Again, if nOObs jumps in he might be able to explain why this is not a good thing.

On the L-Arginine ... Do you take that prior to working out? Is there anything else you take if for besides the "pump"?

I started taking it back when I was fat to help lower BP. BP fine now but I still take one cap every day and three on gym mornings. It really does help with a good pump and makes the veins pop out. Including the "main vein" during sex time! Just my opinion, of course.

**casberger** · 07-15-2010, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I'm surpised it's not a controlled substance (PEA). I'm not sure how you take it, but I purchased 25 grams once for next to nothing... very very pure, white powdery substance, same consistancy as another street drug. It will absolutely blow your sox off if taken the same was as the street drug.

I take mine disolved in water or capsule form. Usually 2g then 15 minutes later I take 1g. Its pretty crazy stuff. I'm sure it will eventually be banned

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 03:53 PM

OK, I got some Niacin (not the no flush), L-Arginine, and some CO-Q10. I have Vitamin C on hand and will follow nOObs protocol advise, and use it in conjunction with the Niacin.

nOObs, you said up the dosage of "C" 1gm/day til there's bowel problems, then back it off 1gm. When you say "problems", what does that mean? Presume constipation, but want to clarify so I know what to look for.

**n00bs** · 07-15-2010, 08:04 PM

Opposite of constipation.. It will explode and you will know.

**tubs** · 07-15-2010, 08:28 PM

big fan of lef.org also

I take a hanfull of supps a day.

two that i did not see mentioned are green tea and flax seed. green tea is a must along with fish and or flax imo

**tubs** · 07-15-2010, 08:32 PM

actually if you go here they have a great list of stuff

http://www.lef.org/anti-aging/

**n00bs** · 07-15-2010, 08:33 PM

The omega 3 in flaxseed is not as bioavailable as in fishoil..

We get enough omega 6 in our diets anyway so i stick with concnetrated epa/dha .. And then with olive oil throughout the day for omega 9 im fairly set..

**Epic Ed** · 07-15-2010, 08:37 PM

- SciFit whey protein powder pre-workout
- Jack3d - 1 scoop pre-workout
- B-12 1000mg 1x EW
- multivitamin 1x ED
- Super Omega 3-6-9 oil 1200mg 2x ED
- Fish oil 1200mg 2x ED
- Vitamin C 1000mg 2x ED
- Potassium 100mg 1x ED
- Taurine 2000mg 1x any day I lift (cramps)

I might add CO-Q10. I've stopped taking glucosamine entirely. It's a waste of money for me. I've taken it over the years and most recently have been taking it for about 10 months straight and have experienced zero benefits from doing so.

**n00bs** · 07-15-2010, 08:49 PM

I lol @ jack3d...

But its supposed to be a hectic supplement...

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by n00bs

Opposite of constipation.. It will explode and you will know.

Well I hope it isn't squat day at the gym when I just figured out that I hit my peak with Vitamin C!!!

**n00bs** · 07-15-2010, 08:51 PM

muahahahahaha....

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by tubs

big fan of lef.org also

I take a hanfull of supps a day.

two that i did not see mentioned are green tea and flax seed. green tea is a must along with fish and or flax imo

I'm presuming there's enough Flax in the EFA's, but maybe that's questionable.

**warchild** · 07-15-2010, 10:40 PM

b6 helps maintain protein metoblism

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by warchild

b6 helps maintain protein metoblism

Cool, thanks for sharing. Is there a specific dosage and/or interval a person should try to get the most out of it? Is this something that you've seen make a big impact in your supplement routine? I've got B6 in my Multi-Vitamin, but it's probably nowhere near enough.

**Vettester** · 07-15-2010, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Epic Ed

- SciFit whey protein powder pre-workout
- Jack3d - 1 scoop pre-workout
- B-12 1000mg 1x EW
- multivitamin 1x ED
- Super Omega 3-6-9 oil 1200mg 2x ED
- Fish oil 1200mg 2x ED
- Vitamin C 1000mg 2x ED
- Potassium 100mg 1x ED
- Taurine 2000mg 1x any day I lift (cramps)

I might add CO-Q10. I've stopped taking glucosamine entirely. It's a waste of money for me. I've taken it over the years and most recently have been taking it for about 10 months straight and have experienced zero benefits from doing so.

Good stuff, Ed ... Thanks! I noticed you show Fish oil in addition to Super Omega 3-6-9. Is this just to get extra amounts of fish oil beyond the EFA 3-6-9? I take mine twice a day, and take it with a few teaspoons of natty P-butter about an hour before going to bed. The EFA's metabolize nicely with the fat in natty P-Butter. Can't say enough good things about this stuff - A MUST!

I just got a hold of the CO-Q10 today. Will keep an eye on and let you know if I notice anything good, bad or indifferent.
.

**PPC** · 07-16-2010, 07:07 AM

Krill oil:

Last time I checked my HDL it was 87. This was taking 2 krill oil caps a day and eating salmon 4-5 times a week. I like krill because it's high anti oxidant level stops it from turning rancid. You know shelf life won't be a problem as it often is with regular fish oil. Good omega 3 source. Flax oil is highly estrogenic and as Noob mentioned, does not convert easily in the body to the omega 3's we use.

Vit D:

All of us know about it's importance now but I think many still underdose. I took 4000 iu for 3 months and my levels came back only in the 30's. I take 8000 every day now. My Dad took 8000 per day for 3 months and only got to high 30's up from a horrible 14. At 10 000 he is almost at 60. Maybe we have issues absorbing.

Whey:

Undenatured is best. This way all the nutrients and glutathione content is not destroyed. Glutathione is our most gentle yet effective way of chelating the body and of course aids the mitachondria of the cell in it's tasks. It is a 'cell energiser.' While whey is a good protein source, I think it is even more important for it's glutathione content so why use a source that is denatured at high heats?

I think keeping the carb level of whey protein down is real important, so I like to use one with stevia and keep it under 2 gm per serving. Jay Robb's is perfect for this. High carbs = high triglycerides = small cholesterol particles = dangerous plaque.

Anti inflammatories:

curcumin
resveratrol
tart cherry extract caps

All these a poweful fighters of inflammation. Tart cherry aids in pain relief and arthritis sufferers can often decrease pain meds when using. These three are also potent cancer fighters. Tart cherry is sometimes called 'natures own chemotherapy'.

Lugol's iodine:

Huge for thyroid function and a must if you do not use iodized salt. Helps to ensure estradiol breakdown does not result in too high aggressive estrogen ie; helps to raise estriol the weaker estrogen over estrone. It is a breast cancer preventative and fighter.

Liquid chlorrophyl drops:

The cheapest green supplement in my mind. It detoxifies the body, is an excellent blood builder and source of vit K and doesn't leave that gritty taste on the roof of your mouth as the green powders do. It also helps purge the body of bad odours. I like mint flavor, can simply be added to a chocolate whey protein smoothie to make choc-mint.

Dessicated liver:

Vette, you wouldn't want to take this due to your high ferritin, but for those of us trying to build up iron stores, it's the safest way. Ferrous forms of iron are not easily absorbed and simply taking 'iron' can have negative consequences as iron can be a toxic free radical in the body. Dessicated liver from grass fed cattle is a good natural source of B12.

A note about PEA. I find it can really enhance sense of well being. Dopamine drugs like deprenyl extend it's life. But you have to be really careful you don't get a hypertensive crisis. There are studies showing low dose deprenyl along with very small doses of PEA (less than 50 mg) completely resoved depression.

In my experience with it, if you are taking even 2.5 mg of deprenyl, do not go over 50 mg PEA. Your body will start floating and blood pressure sky rockets, scary.

20-40 mg PEA with low dose deprenyl works well to enhance happiness and feelings of love (PEA surges in high doses in our body when we fall in love) But I still notice a sort of 'come down' depleted feeling when it leaves the body so only use every now and then now.

**Vettester** · 07-16-2010, 01:21 PM

PPC, great post (as always)! I'm going to take a closer look at the Tart Cherry Extract. Also, I keep hearing the raves about PEA. Sounds like it has amazing potential, but also sounds like it better be taken with a lot of respect!

BTW, I was able to get into a local blood drive last night, so I let them suck some iron enriched blood out of me. They tested it on the spot and the nurse was pleased to see my iron levels. Sure it will help someone with anemia if needed.

**PPC** · 07-16-2010, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

PPC, great post (as always)! I'm going to take a closer look at the Tart Cherry Extract. Also, I keep hearing the raves about PEA. Sounds like it has amazing potential, but also sounds like it better be taken with a lot of respect!

BTW, I was able to get into a local blood drive last night, so I let them suck some iron enriched blood out of me. They tested it on the spot and the nurse was pleased to see my iron levels. Sure it will help someone with anemia if needed.

Excellent. Helping others and yourself.

**Jupiter2** · 07-16-2010, 03:25 PM

Just thought I would add my 2 cents to this thread.

I have been told that Flax Seed Oil is an excellent alternative to Fish Oil. All the benefits without the after taste. I personally have noticed no difference between the two.

Regarding cholesterol control, Niacin in combination with Red Yeast Rice is fantastic. My pharmacist tells me however that the Red Yeast has a tendency to drop blood pressure levels. In people with normal blood pressure this would result in undesirable effects, so he suggested CoQ10.

Hope this helps.