real advice

[mr newbreed]

im strugling to get that real shredded look,any advice you can give would be great,how do you personaly do it,my diet is in check,my cardio is good,so..is lifting light and and many the key?

[Johny-too-small]

im strugling to get that real shredded look,any advice you can give would be great,how do you personaly do it,my diet is in check,my cardio is good,so..is lifting light and and many the key?

Diet and Cardio is the key to getting shredded.

[Big]

Diet and Cardio is the key to getting shredded.

exactly

[mr newbreed]

can you tell me the benifits of lifting light with many reps?. ive always been led to belive that its very good for cutting up !
thanks

[Big]

can you tell me the benifits of lifting light with many reps?. ive always been led to belive that its very good for cutting up !
thanks

endurance

[sonnygll]

can you tell me the benifits of lifting light with many reps?. ive always been led to belive that its very good for cutting up !
thanks

If by light you mean 60% of 1RM or more, and by many you mean 15 or less, the answer is endurance. If you mean lighter than that with more reps, the answer is nothing.

To answer your original question, here is how you lose fat while holding muscle, it is what I do.

For diet, just keep it clean, no junk, sugar, white flour, white rice, corn potatoes and that sort of thing. Lower carbs to 20 to 60 a day depending on what you can stick to. Don't worry about the amount you eat so much. Eat until your satisfied, never be hungry. Keep the protein high of course to retain muscle.

weight training. What works for adding muscle while overfeeding works for fat loss while doing the above diet. Your routine should be almost entirely compound free weight lifts. Do high volume with low rest. Like a German volume training type thing, or High frequency training, or hypertrophy specific training.

As for cardio, you don't actually want to do any standard cardio. It's not very effective and burns more muscle than fat. Anaerobic exercise burns 9 times as much fat as aerobics per calorie expended. This is because of raising metabolic activity for 24 hours after the exercise. It is also very muscle sparing. Sprint intervals on a track or cardio machine are good. You can also do Olympic lifts with very low weight for 12 reps or so. Then just walk around the gym for a minute until you catch your breath and then go again. You don't need much either. 10 to 20 minutes once or twice a week is enough to start. Just add a little at a time. Then whenever weight loss stalls, you add a little bit more.

That's it. Drugs won't help untl you get that down.

[mr newbreed]

thankyou bro

[Ronnie Rowland]

The absolute best way to get shredded is to stay in ketosis 6 days a week and have one cheat day where you carb up. Low to moderate intensity cardio is good for fat burning when comingled with an intense weight training program.

[sonnygll]

The absolute best way to get shredded is to stay in ketosis 6 days a week and have one cheat day where you carb up. Low to moderate intensity cardio is good for fat burning when comingled with an intense weight training program.

Not really, the low intensity cardio obsession is just bro talk.

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/HIITvsET.html
http://etd-submit.etsu.edu/etd/these...d/king0417.pdf

This last one is mostly about sports. However if you scroll down, the second to last question is in regards to losing fat while preserving muscle in bodybuilding.
http://www.cbass.com/INTERVAL.HTM

[Johny-too-small]

The absolute best way to get shredded is to stay in ketosis 6 days a week

Ketosis is old school thinking and not the best way to get shredded. Its like a fad diet that no one does anymore.

[Bradly1234]

you need to be aerobic to burn fat during cardio. other wise your depending on your body to produce atp for energy

[sonnygll]

Ketosis is old school thinking and not the best way to get shredded. Its like a fad diet that no one does anymore.

While you don't necessarily need to be in ketosis, lower carb intake works, it is not a fad. It is an old idea, but a tried and true one. Manipulating insulin levels and going with less efficient fuel sources is the best way to cut. The direct approach of cutting calories in general lowers the metabolism, due to the law of conservation. The law of conservation states that the body will do anything to conserve energy. It lowers metabolic function and cannibalizes muscle to reduce caloric needs to keep you alive.


Bradley, in my previous post there are links with scientific research showing your statement to be false. If you can't stand to read it, just compare Richard Simmons to a sprinter. Notice while Richard is thin, he is soft and flabby, where as a sprinter is very lean and hard.

[Bradly1234]

compareing richard simmons to a sprinter is like compring peanut butter to jelly.

take a distance runner/swimmer/any endurance athelte vs sprinter/power lifter/thrower/ect.. they are two tottaly different machines made for two tottaly differnt things
power sports like the sprinter primarily use the process glycogenolysis for their short explosive power it is also manily anaerobic which takes place without the use of oxygen so why would u use this type of exercise to get shredded?

in my eyes sprinting is not the way to lose fat unlesss you use it in interval training bouts but this causes the build up of lactic acid quicker then doing aerobic exercise.

[sonnygll]

compareing richard simmons to a sprinter is like compring peanut butter to jelly.

take a distance runner/swimmer/any endurance athelte vs sprinter/power lifter/thrower/ect.. they are two tottaly different machines made for two tottaly differnt things
power sports like the sprinter primarily use the process glycogenolysis for their short explosive power it is also manily anaerobic which takes place without the use of oxygen so why would u use this type of exercise to get shredded?

in my eyes sprinting is not the way to lose fat unlesss you use it in interval training bouts but this causes the build up of lactic acid quicker then doing aerobic exercise.

Yes, it is like comparing peanut butter to jelly. One is soft and flabby and one is lean and hard. Yes a sprinter and an endurance athlete are different. That is why I make the comparison. Endurance people are generally more soft and not quite as lean, while sprinters are generally more hard and shredded. That is because of the training they do for their sport. Obviously they do the training that gets them results in their sport. But you can see which one of those also has the happy side effect of fat loss while holding muscle.

Why use anaerobic to get shredded? Because it drastically increases your resting metabolic rate for 24 hours! It burns 9 times as much fat per calorie expended as compared to aerobics, and spares muscle rather than burns it. It's a no brainer.

In some people's eyes the world is flat and is 6000 years old. That doesn't make it so. It's ok if lactic acid builds, when you rest or do the recovery part of the interval it goes back down.

And finally let me again point to the results of the scientific experiments done on the subject.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Ketosis is old school thinking and not the best way to get shredded. Its like a fad diet that no one does anymore.

Johnny this is not altogether true. Keytones, protein and fat help prevent muscle loss during a harsh cutting phase. I realize that carbs/insulin can as well, but insulin is a fat storage hormone!

I agree that there's no need in entering ketosis for common cutting and/or priming, but ketosis is the absolute best way to stay big while leaning out for a competition. In other words getting shredded to ribbons.

[Bradly1234]

Why use anaerobic to get shredded? Because it drastically increases your resting metabolic rate for 24 hours! .

point this out to me, i couldent find it in ur links

[Ronnie Rowland]

Not really, the low intensity cardio obsession is just bro talk.

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/HIITvsET.html
http://etd-submit.etsu.edu/etd/these...d/king0417.pdf

This last one is mostly about sports. However if you scroll down, the second to last question is in regards to losing fat while preserving muscle in bodybuilding.
http://www.cbass.com/INTERVAL.HTM

Using HIT or HIIT aerobics on top of an intense weight lifting program can over-train the sympathetic nervous system used in weight training. With moderate intensity aerobics (70% vo2 max or less) you are using the parasympathetic nervous system-hence over-training of the nervous system needed to use weights is less common.



Make sense?

[sonnygll]

point this out to me, i couldent find it in ur links

Sure. It is in the 2nd link, the PDF, on page 13 at the top. I'll quote it here.

"Research Hypotheses
Even if caloric expenditure during exercise is held constant between a high intensity
interval training program and a low intensity steady state training program, a higher intensity
program can increase fat metabolism and RMR for 24 hours after exercise to a greater extent
compared to a lower intensity program (Bielinski, et al., 1985; Treuth et al., 1996).
Approximately 60-75% of TDEE comes from RMR (Wilmore & Costill, 1994); therefore, a
significant increase in RMR will increase TDEE substantially. In turn, an increase in TDEE will
facilitate weight loss. Higher intensity exercise may also produce post-exercise increase in fat
metabolism, which will facilitate fat loss throughout the day at a greater rate than low intensity
exercise (Broeder et al., 1991). The high intensity interval training program may have a greater
likelihood of causing an acute increase in RMR than a low intensity steady state program. As
such, this study had three hypotheses: 1) high intensity interval training will produce a greater
increase in RMR 24 hours following an exercise session than low intensity steady state training;
2) high intensity interval training will produce greater loss of total body weight than low
intensity steady state training; and 3) high intensity interval training will produce a greater loss of fat mass than low intensity steady state training.
"

[Ronnie Rowland]

Sure. It is in the 2nd link, the PDF, on page 13 at the top. I'll quote it here.

"Research Hypotheses
Even if caloric expenditure during exercise is held constant between a high intensity
interval training program and a low intensity steady state training program, a higher intensity
program can increase fat metabolism and RMR for 24 hours after exercise to a greater extent
compared to a lower intensity program (Bielinski, et al., 1985; Treuth et al., 1996).
Approximately 60-75% of TDEE comes from RMR (Wilmore & Costill, 1994); therefore, a
significant increase in RMR will increase TDEE substantially. In turn, an increase in TDEE will
facilitate weight loss. Higher intensity exercise may also produce post-exercise increase in fat
metabolism, which will facilitate fat loss throughout the day at a greater rate than low intensity
exercise (Broeder et al., 1991). The high intensity interval training program may have a greater
likelihood of causing an acute increase in RMR than a low intensity steady state program. As
such, this study had three hypotheses: 1) high intensity interval training will produce a greater
increase in RMR 24 hours following an exercise session than low intensity steady state training;
2) high intensity interval training will produce greater loss of total body weight than low
intensity steady state training; and 3) high intensity interval training will produce a greater loss of fat mass than low intensity steady state training.
"

I've read a recent study that disproved this theory. It stated that after all was said and done, low/mod/high intensity cardio burned the same amount of bodyfat when the person went the same distance (for i.e.; 5 miles).

I'm not saying I agree with teh new findings. But, it just goes to show you that studies are not necessarily as reliable as one might think.

[sonnygll]

Using HIT or HIIT aerobics on top of an intense weight lifting program can over-train the sympathetic nervous system used in weight training. With moderate intensity aerobics (70% vo2 max or less) you are using the parasympathetic nervous system-hence over-training of the nervous system needed to use weights is less common.



Make sense?

Not at all. First HIT is Mentser's weight training protocol. HIIT is not aerobic, it is anaerobic. You are not going to be doing anywhere near enough HIIT to cause overtraining when doing it for weight loss. Cardio is more likely to cause it indirectly by burning muscle and lowering metabolic function. Next everything you do stresses the central nervous system and somatic nervous system. The type of stress causes dominance of one side or the other of the autonomic nervous system. But I know what you meant.

So I'll agree that an advanced bodybuilding weight routine combined with training for short distance track events would cause overtraining. But not the weights combined with a small amount of HIIT. No way.

Here is an article with more information on that sort of thing. Just take the space out.

http://www.t -nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1526539&cr=

[sonnygll]

I've read a recent study that disproved this theory. It stated that after all was said and done, low/mod/high intensity cardio burned the same amount of bodyfat when the person went the same distance (for i.e.; 5 miles).

I'm not saying I agree with the new findings. But, it just goes to show you that studies are not necessarily as reliable as one might think.

Post it. There is a lot of junk science around. I bet it falls into that category.

The studies I posted are solid science. Look them up. It's all about EPOC. Look that up too.

Take a look at the article I just posted. It is by Alwyn Cosgrove who has trained countless athletes.

[mr newbreed]

can somebody explain ketosis for me please as i have never heard of it before
cheers

[sonnygll]

It is pretty complicated and an awful lot to type out. You would be better off reading the wiki. Let me know if you don't understand any of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis

[mr newbreed]

right i understand that...i am on a ultra low carb diet and have read that anerobic exercise is better than aerobic....
what are good forms of anerobic exercise ?
i cycle my pedal bike 28 mile per day 7 days a week and do 2500 press ups a week for cardio at the moment but im always on the look out for good cardio advice

[Ronnie Rowland]

can somebody explain ketosis for me please as i have never heard of it before
cheers

In short, once you start eating 40 grams of carbs or less each day the body changes over to burning fats for fuel as opposed to glucose. When this takes place the body produces keytones for brain food since there is no longer any glucose.

When you perform HIT aerobics while on a very low carb diet the body will start using muscle tissue for fuel. If you do HIT on a low carb diet it can cause low blood sugar. When you do low to moderate intensity cardio while in ketosis you burn stored bodyfat for fuel as opposed to muscle tissue.

Understand now?

[InsaneInTheMembrane]

I'm sorry to barge in on this intense debate but I think there are elements in both perspectives that have merit.

In the end, no studies or research paper can supplant personal experience. Sonny is right in that intense interval cardio (like the sprinters do) does lead to a heightened metabolism better than regular cardio but also note that these sprinters do not engage in intensive weight training. At the same time, low-intensity cardio (60-75% of max heart rate) does use an alternate route to sustainably burn fat without lactic acid build up and muscle catabolism, albeit not as efficient as intense interval in boosting metabolism, but BY NO MEANS ineffective!

Bodybuilders are not marathoners; nor are they sprinters... so I would agree with slingshot. Doing anaerobic cardio exercise will likely interfere with weight training intensity for sure.... although low intensity cardio, although less effective, works more synergistically with the already anaerobic weight training sessions to provide a shredded physique while cutting.

I don't have studies or links to post, but I believe in my experiences, which have involved a lot of trial and error.

thanx for reading
cheers

[Ronnie Rowland]

I'm sorry to barge in on this intense debate but I think there are elements in both perspectives that have merit.

In the end, no studies or research paper can supplant personal experience. Sonny is right in that intense interval cardio (like the sprinters do) does lead to a heightened metabolism better than regular cardio but also note that these sprinters do not engage in intensive weight training. At the same time, low-intensity cardio (60-75% of max heart rate) does use an alternate route to sustainably burn fat without lactic acid build up and muscle catabolism, albeit not as efficient as intense interval in boosting metabolism, but BY NO MEANS ineffective!

Bodybuilders are not marathoners; nor are they sprinters... so I would agree with slingshot. Doing anaerobic cardio exercise will likely interfere with weight training intensity for sure.... although low intensity cardio, although less effective, works more synergistically with the already anaerobic weight training sessions to provide a shredded physique while cutting.

I don't have studies or links to post, but I believe in my experiences, which have involved a lot of trial and error.

thanx for reading
cheers

Great summary right there!

[Johny-too-small]

While you don't necessarily need to be in ketosis, lower carb intake works, it is not a fad. It is an old idea, but a tried and true one. Manipulating insulin levels and going with less efficient fuel sources is the best way to cut. The direct approach of cutting calories in general lowers the metabolism, due to the law of conservation. The law of conservation states that the body will do anything to conserve energy. It lowers metabolic function and cannibalizes muscle to reduce caloric needs to keep you alive.

Johnny this is not altogether true. Keytones, protein and fat help prevent muscle loss during a harsh cutting phase. I realize that carbs/insulin can as well, but insulin is a fat storage hormone!

I agree that there's no need in entering ketosis for common cutting and/or priming, but ketosis is the absolute best way to stay big while leaning out for a competition. In other words getting shredded to ribbons.

Understand, these points well. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[mr newbreed]

In short, once you start eating 40 grams of carbs or less each day the body changes over to burning fats for fuel as opposed to glucose. When this takes place the body produces keytones for brain food since there is no longer any glucose.

When you perform HIT aerobics while on a very low carb diet the body will start using muscle tissue for fuel. If you do HIT on a low carb diet it can cause low blood sugar. When you do low to moderate intensity cardio while in ketosis you burn stored bodyfat for fuel as opposed to muscle tissue.

Understand now?

thanks for that bro

[sonnygll]

In short, once you start eating 40 grams of carbs or less each day the body changes over to burning fats for fuel as opposed to glucose. When this takes place the body produces keytones for brain food since there is no longer any glucose.

When you perform HIT aerobics while on a very low carb diet the body will start using muscle tissue for fuel. If you do HIT on a low carb diet it can cause low blood sugar. When you do low to moderate intensity cardio while in ketosis you burn stored bodyfat for fuel as opposed to muscle tissue.

Understand now?

Actually there is no research to back that up. However there is no research to disprove it either. All I can offer is anecdotal evidence of myself and others who used low crab high protein diets, weight training and HIIT to lose fat while preserving muscle.

I can further add that we DO have research showing muscle sparing effects of low carb/high protein by itself, and HIIT by itself. So formulating a theory that it would remain true when you combine them would be logical.

[sonnygll]

right i understand that...i am on a ultra low carb diet and have read that anerobic exercise is better than aerobic....
what are good forms of anerobic exercise ?
i cycle my pedal bike 28 mile per day 7 days a week and do 2500 press ups a week for cardio at the moment but im always on the look out for good cardio advice

There are some good examples in this thread posted by myself and others.

interval training

[Bradly1234]

you have some very informative info sonny, good reads

but i have been doing alot of research and talking to some of my professors and ive found no true research proving anaerobic interval training is better then aerobic nor vice-versa, so is it basicly based on personal expierence?

[sonnygll]

you have some very informative info sonny, good reads

but i have been doing alot of research and talking to some of my professors and ive found no true research proving anaerobic interval training is better then aerobic nor vice-versa, so is it basicly based on personal expierence?

No, it's based on research and I posted it. It's not even controversial anymore.

Here are 3 from just the piece of the article I quoted.
(Bielinski, et al., 1985; Treuth et al., 1996).
(Wilmore & Costill, 1994)
(Broeder et al., 1991)

Here is the reference for the exrx page.
Trembblay A, Simoneau JA, Bouchard C. (1994). Impact of Exercise Intensity on Body Fatness and Skeletal Muscle Metablism, Metabolism. 43(7): 814-818.


If you're in college, look them up, you should have access.

[lil-SLIM]

OK so without all the technical mumbo jumbo...

HIT guys- give an example of a cardio workout and how often you would do it (ex: run thirty seconds on tredmill then walk 30 seconds on tredmill then repeat various times???) and your view on the benefits of your plan (stated very simply!)

LIT guys- give an example of a cardio workout and weekly plan (ex: walk for 20 min, 3 times a week) and your view on what the benefits would be (stated very simply!)

[sonnygll]

OK so without all the technical mumbo jumbo...

HIT guys- give an example of a cardio workout and how often you would do it (ex: run thirty seconds on tredmill then walk 30 seconds on tredmill then repeat various times???) and your view on the benefits of your plan (stated very simply!)

LIT guys- give an example of a cardio workout and weekly plan (ex: walk for 20 min, 3 times a week) and your view on what the benefits would be (stated very simply!)

It's HIIT actually, which is just part of it. HIT, is actually Arther Jones and Mike Mentzer's take on weight training. Two completely different things. The benefits as I mentioned are the dramatic increase in resting metabolic rate, which ends up burning 9 times as much fat per calorie expended as compared to aerobics.

As for how to do it, there are countless ways. In this thread many of them a written about by myself and others.

interval training