Squats.

[T.STEEL]

Why is it that some people say to perform a squat to the parallel position and some say to go past that? Isnt it better for risk of injury and muscle growth to perform the squat past parallel? I have went to parallel- not even that in the past and noticed i had knee problems back then. Now i have always been doing them past parallel and no knee problems, just cant lift as much weight as i use to because i am going down a lot farther then before.

[gettingBIGGERfast]

stopping at parallel is definitely bad for your knees. Ass to heals is much safer

[FireGuy]

stopping at parallel is definitely bad for your knees. Ass to heals is much safer

How do you figure? Not saying I disagree just wondering how this makes sense from a kinesic point of view. Please explain.

[Ronnie Rowland]

stopping at parallel is definitely bad for your knees. Ass to heals is much safer

I understand why you say this but according to my friend (an orthopedic) just the opposite can be true. He also says going down deep is harder on the lower back.

I think it depends on the persons build,etc. There are no absolutes!

[FireGuy]

Actually it makes zero sense from a logical stance. If you go all the way down you are still passsing through the same range of motion so how can it be safer on the knees?

[FireGuy]

BTW, I am not advocatin either methid, I am just saying to say it's safer makes no sense.

[gettingBIGGERfast]

At parallel the knees are at their most disadvantageous point. The level arm (your thigh) is at 90 degrees to the direction of force so at this point the most force is needed to stop the rotation. Not to mention the fact that you need to stop the weight and accelerate it upwards at this point. If you really squat ass to heals, the weight stops when your hamstrings hit your calves, this places very little strain on you knees.

I can see about the lower back thing though.....I guess you just gotta make sure never let your back slip and that it isn't already a weak point.

[gettingBIGGERfast]

Leg Training Myths Exposed
Quick Answers to Common Idiocy
by Alwyn Cosgrove

The Parallel Universe

Myths:

"When doing leg presses, don't go more than half-way down."

"When squatting, don't go below parallel."


Real-World Response

Have you ever watched kids learn to stand? They begin in a full squat. In fact, the fetal position is a full squat. That's how your knee actually developed — in the full squat position.

Deep squatter from day one.

Don't come back at me saying that a fetal position isn't loaded. That statement actually proves my point. It's not the position itself that's dangerous. If you're an idiot and don't know how to load properly, then we have big problems.

Ask any orthopedic surgeon or physical therapist at what degree of knee-bend one performs the "drawer test?" It's at 90 degrees. In this position, the knee joint is most unstable. If you're trying to assess the integrity of the ligaments, you want minimal interference from other structures.

The drawer test: If it tickles, you probably aren't doing it right.

Bend the knee to full flexion and check how much the tibia moves on the femur anteriorly or posteriorly. It's very little. However, do the same test at 90 degrees of flexion and you'll get considerably more movement.

You can imagine how much force is on the knee ligaments if the athlete descends with a weight and then at the most unstable point (90 degrees), reverses momentum and accelerates in the opposite direction. Couple this with the fact that nearly everyone is capable of squatting more weight to parallel than to the full squat position, and you set your body up for a problem.

Warning: The following stunt is not to be attempted by anyone wishing to remain bipedal.


Scientific Response

Squatting to parallel with legs bent at 90 degrees not only makes the exercise less effective, but increases the risk of injury. By not squatting through a full range of motion, you can't maintain proper lumbosacral body mechanics.

When performing the squat, the sacrum undergoes a process known as nutation. It tilts forward relative to the two ilia on either side of it. At approximately 90 degrees of knee bend, the sacrum tilts back in a process known as counternutation. These two functions, nutation and counternutation, basically describe the movement at the sacroiliac (SI) joint.

However, proper SI joint mechanics help to ensure optimal functioning of the rest of the spine. For example, some literature links SI dysfunction with lower back pain in up to 80% of cases.

In order to perform a full squat, flexibility and range of motion must be maintained in the lumbar spine and SI joint, as well as in muscles such as the iliopsoas, hip external rotators, piriformis, and gemelli.

If a client can't squat past 90 degrees of knee bend without their heels raising or their body bending excessively forward at the waist, but they can squat all the way to the floor while holding onto something, we know there are muscle imbalances and stability issues around the pelvic/lumbosacral region as opposed to a knee or ankle dysfunction.

Great for testing your squat depth and great for keeping out the land shark.

Additionally, improper pelvic, hip, and/or lumbosacral mechanics could manifest down the kinetic chain as recurring knee or ankle problems. Thus, regular performance of the full squat offers a "screen" of the athlete's pelvic and lumbosacral flexibility. This could prevent injury or muscle imbalances long before they become chronic.

Gray Cook's Functional Movement Screen is a reference for using the squat as a screening tool.

As far as studies go, Salem and Powers (2001) looked at patellofemoral joint kinetics in female collegiate athletes at three different depths of knee flexion — 70 degrees (above parallel), 90 degrees (at parallel), and 110 degrees (below parallel).

The researchers found that "...peak knee extensor moment, patellofemoral joint reaction force and patellofemoral joint stress did not vary significantly between the three squatting trials..." There was no support for the idea that squatting below parallel increased stress on the patellofemoral joint.

[FireGuy]

I totally disagree, you should be stopping the weight with the muscle not when it bottoms out regardless of what range of motion you are using. Same concept applies on benches, you de-accelerate the weight with resistance and do not use your sternum to stop it.

Stopping at 90% on squats does require the most force to stop it but it is muscular force which as long as the knee is going in the same direction as the toes should not be causing stress on the joint, assuming of course the knee is not past the toe in the anterior plane.

[FireGuy]

My above was in response to post 7 not 8, beat me to the reply button.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

greater range of motion = greater gains



...for me anyways


but form is #1

leave your ego at the door

quality over quantity any day

[Older lifter]

I find that it is a bit dependant on your build, I was having a great deal of trouble getting to parellel let alone beyound, I am tall and found that i had to lean far forward, i also have a very stiff lower back (medical reason) and going too deep caused a lot of strain on the lower back (before you smart guys start saying that your back is not used, i felt it very much even though the back was straight), i stick to parellel on squats and as deep as i can on presses...

[gettingBIGGERfast]

Well, if you have a medical reason not to go past parallel then that is something else...

I'll admit, my lower back did have problems when I first started going all the way down, which surprised me because I have a relatively strong lower back. But this was because I had tight hamstrings and poor lower back endurance. Focusing on these issues fixed things (at least for me).

[Deltasaurus]

I come almost to parallel on back squat or right at parallel, front squat after i warm up my joints i got A2G but thats what works for me, Im just trying to gain size and sstrength and be healthy i dont wanna hurt myself so i do what i feel is easier on my joints and still stresses my muscles, do what works for you

-AJ

[Darksyde]

ive always been a heavy advocate of full ROMs 99% of the time. the end result of this system for me 10 yrs later: i seem to have bigger, fuller, better defined muscles than other people who lift as much or more weight than me but short change their reps.

[Older lifter]

Not hijacking the thread but what is your opinions on same issue in regards to Hack Squats

[green22]

do whats most comfortable.

[Kstoner6tb]

^^Agreed. If you can touch your ass off the floor with no knee problems..hell go for it. Every doc I've ever discussed this matter stated that deep squats are horrible for your knees. People who stop the incline bar at their chin, who are worried about their shoulders(justly so), are doing ass to the ground squats? I don't get it.

[rockinred]

Do both.... I do ass to calves or ground on some lighter sets and parallel on the heavier ones.... then you get to optimize on both....

easy enough, don't over think it.

[AdamGH]

ive gone to parallel in squats for many years and my knees are perfectly fine. i think going past that is putting joints, back and other stuff at risk for injury. just imo and based on personal experience.

[TQM]

muscle imbalances and stability issues................Folks this is a core point regarding ROM on the squatt and any other for that matter. Do you want over developed quads and scrawny hams? Look as a boby builder you want to ba as symetrical as can be. By balancing the methods of your squatts you stand a better chance of reaching the goals of size, strength and a balanced body.

I have found that by doing deep squatts and making sure the form is good I have been able to make gains in size and weight. I also when training very heavy will do half squatts with the focus on squeezing the muscle at full contraction(being careful not to lock out) this gives you depth and cutts.