Routine needs work

[jacked889]

This is very rough, and I know it needs work. My overall goal is size, not strength. Specifically I need to work on biceps(they are lagging behind badly, arms are only 16.6, and tricep is making up a huge amount, more than it should) chest width, back (more width, than thickness, but both). I looked at Layne Norton's Power/Hypertrophy Routine, but 5 days seemed like alot.

Height: 6ft
Weight: 216 right now..subject to change because of the cut..
Experience: 2.5 years lifting
I'm going to be running Halotest-25 at 50/50/75/75/75/100 during this bulk.

Monday- Chest and Tris

4x10 flat bench
4x12 incline db press
4x10 dips
4x15 cable flies
Skullcrushers- 4x12 10 8 6
Closegrips- 4x12 10 8 6


Tuesday- Back and Bi's
Deadlift 4x10
4x10 bent over db rows
4x10 Pullups
4x10 seated cable rows
4x10 lat pulldowns hammer strength machine
Standing BB curls 4x12 10 8 6
Hammer Curls 4x12 10 8 6
Preacher Curls 4x12 10 8 6

Wed- Off

Thurs- Legs
4x10 Hacksquats
4x10 leg press
4x10 leg curls
4x10 calf raises

Friday- Shoulders, Traps
4x10 seated Military Press
4x10 side laterals
4x10 rear delts
4x10 upright rows
4x10 shrugs

Not sure if I should add another arm day in with shoulders or not...thanks for the help.

[kelevra]

since nobody has chimed in yet, I'll give you my routine.
Mon
Back/ start with Lat width 6-8 sets total. Pull ups (chins) & lat pull downs, Medium wide grip
Lat thickness next / with some dead lifts 2-3 sets / bent over BB row 2-3 sets & cable row 2-3 sets.
Tues Chest. 2 warm ups then 3-4 working sets Flat BB bench, Incline BB for 3 sets, then another movement of whatever for 3 sets.
Wed Bi's Tri's / Bi's 3sets standing EZ bar curl, 3 sets seated incline DB curl, sets of isolation movement.
Thr Legs/ 2 warm ups, 3-4 sets of squat, 2 sets walking lunge, 3 sets leg extension, 4 sets ham curls.
Fri. shoulders/ 3 sets warm up rear delts (very light) 3-4 sets shoulder press, 3-4 sets side raise, & 4sets of rear delts raise. Sometimes ill do 3-4 sets of traps if i didn't do them on back day.

HINT, if you have a lagging part, try less volume before you try more.

[jacked889]

12 sets for biceps is less than i normally do. I also usually use the ez curl bar, so i was thinking of switching to straight bar, (I lack the 'height' in the bicep muscle, strength is decent). also 8-10 sets seems a little light on chest? maybe i just overdo it? and also what rep range are you doing? I was thinking 10-15 for most of my sets

[pebble]

Your movement patterns are not optimal for your goals, you say you want more back width, yet you still have more horizontal pushes than pulls (looking at a 4 to 2). I bet if you just had proper balance in your routine your posture would change and would help give you the look you want.

And your leg workout is soft.

For your biceps, if you are looking for peak you need to start using a supinated grip as much as possible without causing any wrist injuries.

[jacked889]

Then how would I change my back routine?
I'm not worried that much about legs, they're 30 inches right now and don't need insane workouts to stay at that.

[kelevra]

12 sets for biceps is less than i normally do. I also usually use the ez curl bar, so i was thinking of switching to straight bar, (I lack the 'height' in the bicep muscle, strength is decent). also 8-10 sets seems a little light on chest? maybe i just overdo it? and also what rep range are you doing? I was thinking 10-15 for most of my sets

yes, 10-15 reps is normally where I fall. Some lifts i go down to 8, but normally feel that it ends up being too much weight to properly keep form. EXample. overhead 2 hand dumbbell extension i can rep the 110's for 16-18 reps, but anything heavier sounds stupid heavy for that movement and the support muscles in the area.
As for volume i'm sure we all respond differently. I used to feel like if I wasn't taxing the shiet out of things that i wouldn't grow. Although now i rarely go over the total sets i mentioned above and every few weeks i spend 2 weeks going to lower volume. The more i use this approach the more i like it. I continue to grow, am normally fresh for next work out, and haven't been injured since. case in point maybe your legs. 6 foot and only 216 with 30inch legs is impressive. And it seems to be the area of least volume for you.
good luck

[jacked889]

Yes thank god for good genetics in legs..although I wish I had it in upperbody, although everyone in my family has decent arms..18.5ish. I've tweaked the routine a little bit to the following:

Monday- Chest and Tris

3x10-15 flat bench
4x10-15 incline db press
4x10-15 dips
4x10-15 cable flies
Skullcrushers- 4x12 10 8 6
Closegrips- 4x12 10 8 6


Tuesday- Back and Bi's

4x10-15 Pullups
4x10-15 Lat Pulldown Hammer Strength Machine
3x8 Deadlift
3x10 one armed DB rows
4x10-15 seated cable rows
Standing BB curls 4x12 10 8 6
Hammer Curls 4x12 10 8 6
Preacher Curls 4x12 10 8 6

Wed- Off

Thurs- Legs
4x10 Hacksquats
4x10 leg press
4x10 leg curls
4x10 calf raises

Friday- Shoulders, Traps, Neck
3x5 seated Military Press
4x10 side laterals
4x10 rear delts
4x10 upright rows
4x10 shrugs

I still feel like I need flies and dips with my chest days might just cut each down to 3 sets, and then with biceps I'll have to just judge how they respond. My main concern is that I maximize my gains while I'm running the Halotest, and that the gains are where I want them.

[kelevra]

Yes thank god for good genetics in legs..although I wish I had it in upperbody, although everyone in my family has decent arms..18.5ish. I've tweaked the routine a little bit to the following:

Monday- Chest and Tris

3x10-15 flat bench
4x10-15 incline db press
4x10-15 dips
4x10-15 cable flies reduce number of sets
Skullcrushers- 4x12 10 8 6
Closegrips- 4x12 10 8 6 throw out, replacewith maybe 2 sets of cable pushdown or nothing


Tuesday- Back and Bi's

4x10-15 Pullups
4x10-15 Lat Pulldown Hammer Strength Machine
3x8 Deadlift
3x10 one armed DB rows
4x10-15 seated cable rows
Standing BB curls 4x12 10 8 6 reduce to 3 sets
Hammer Curls 4x12 10 8 6 reduce to 3 sets
Preacher Curls 4x12 10 8 6 reduce to 2 sets

Wed- Off

Thurs- Legs
4x10 Hacksquats
4x10 leg press
4x10 leg curls
4x10 calf raises

Friday- Shoulders, Traps, Neck
3x5 seated Military Press do 4 sets, 8-16 reps
4x10 side laterals
4x10 rear delts
4x10 upright rowsthrow out
4x10 shrugs

I still feel like I need flies and dips with my chest days might just cut each down to 3 sets, and then with biceps I'll have to just judge how they respond. My main concern is that I maximize my gains while I'm running the Halotest, and that the gains are where I want them.

IMO it is looking better.
I would be careful of the work load on tri's and bi's. Your working them indirectly that day as well. And i would throw out the upright rows on shoulder day. I made a few suggestions above.

[jacked889]

Okay, then do you think I should do close grip instead of skulls? and is the rep range okay for bis and tris? and also, whats wrong with upright rows? I appreciate the help.

[jacked889]

Okay I was wondering if I did it like this, would it be better for biceps?

Mon- Chest/Back
Tues- Legs
Wed- Off
THurs- Shoulders, traps
Friday- BIs Tris- with original volume and exercises

That way both biceps and triceps have time to recover from mondays workout?
and also how much rest in between sets?
Sorry, I also just noticedthat you do your pull cups as chin? isnt better for lat width if you regular pull ups w wide grip?

[kelevra]

Okay, then do you think I should do close grip instead of skulls?NO skulls are best and is the rep range okay for bis and tris?range is not as important as form, keep between8-16 and you'll be fine, less puts more stress on tendons and can cause injury and also, whats wrong with upright rows? IMO they are ruff on rotator cuff & you already have a nice shoulder routine hitting all the delt heads. I appreciate the help.

your welcome, hope some of it helps you

[kelevra]

Okay I was wondering if I did it like this, would it be better for biceps?

Mon- Chest/BackI don’t like the 1st today’s like this, your 2 biggest parts (back,legs) then chest, all in 2 days is too much IMO.
Tues- Legs
Wed- Off
THurs- Shoulders, traps
Friday- BIs Tris- with original volume and exercises

That way both biceps and triceps have time to recover from mondays workout?Good thought, but i dont like mon -tues
and also how much rest in between sets? 3-5min, some go less, but you short yourself on that set. You ever do 16 reps and come back and can only do 10, then rest a bit longer because you get caught up in conversation and knock out 16 again. I always feel it is better to rest abit.
Sorry, I also just noticedthat you do your pull cups as chin? isnt better for lat width if you regular pull ups w wide grip?IMO about medium wide, not anything wayout there unsualy wide

If you want to bring up your arms try this split. I really urge you to try less volume with good intensity for bi’s, before you go to more volume.
Mon-back & traps
Tues-Chest
Wed-legs
Thr-Bi’s & Tri’s / try doing tri’s first as the blood flow you gain might help you lift more with bi’s (at times I’ll alternate every few weeks between which I do first)
Fri Shldrs

[jacked889]

Yes I've always found that doing triceps first helps. and yeah ill try the lower volume first before I jump to more sets. is there a way i can measure how they are responding? like how much i should be gaining in biceps as far as size? obviousy everyone is different...

[kelevra]

Yes I've always found that doing triceps first helps. and yeah ill try the lower volume first before I jump to more sets. is there a way i can measure how they are responding?Good question, I would say any improvement over the below 4-6 week plan is something of value. like how much i should be gaining in biceps as far as size? obviousy everyone is different...

Unfortunately that is the big truth. Some of us have genetically better & worse areas. I would say a good month or so of training to get a true read of the benefits. I have been trying to help a youngster at the local bring up his legs. It sounds kinda similar. At your size and weight, your arms may not get much bigger. You may have to put on some size in order to get them to grow. I’m on the fat side of 280. I certainly couldn’t imagine having the same size arms now as if I were down to 220. Give it a good 4 weeks of lower volume on the arms and then you may go back to higher. One last point. For my body 9 sets on bi’s is high volume. When I go to low volume, (which is for 2 weeks about every 6-8 week period) I only do about 6 sets for bi’s and 6 for tri’s, 6 for chest, 6 for legs, & about 8 for back. You might go all the way down to that volume for a 2 week period, then up the volume to what we have discussed for 4 weeks.

[jacked889]

thats what gets me too. genetically, the weak point in my family has been chest, which i definitely see, and hte strong point has been biceps and legs. I got the legs part of that, I'm just hoping I've got the biceps part somewhere in there.

[Windex]

In my opinion, 4x10 Deadlift is way to many, you will deteriorate the cushion in between your spinal discs by the time you are 40 and have backpain for the rest of your life and you will start taking Robax with your multivitamin every day. Everyone's back is different, but Deadlift is the most injury-prone lift, especially when done incorrectly. I would probably change that, or maybe see a Physiotherapist/Chiropractor before doing that much, especially on a weekly basis.

My $0.02

[kelevra]

agree^^ good point, i normally do deads every other week and dont do but 2-3 sets and not very heavy

[jacked889]

I can alternate them every week, but what exercise should I replace them with though? And yeah I mean at 3 sets of 8 I won't be going over 315-330

[kelevra]

bent over row is pretty good, or a hammer strength row, one arm DB row. PLenty to choose

[jacked889]

Yeah I have one arm db rows in there right now, so ill just add hammer strength rows every other week when im not deadlifting

[terraj]

Thats a lot of work.

I do one exercise,3 sets per muscle every 4 days and I am done

[jacked889]

wow thats it? What rep range are you doing?

do you think you could post your full routine?

[kelevra]

LOL. You’re starting to make it to complicated (diet and nutrition are complicated) not the lifting. Besides I’ve hounded you since day one to reduce your volume. It isn’t all about rep range and those minor things. It is about the right amount of quality. Very few guys under train…. The guy that does is sitting in front of his xbox 4 or 5 days a week. Not the feller that hits the gym routinely. And of those guys in the age bracket of 18-whatever usually over train. IMO! That means to many reps, sets, different exercises, to long of a duration, to many forced reps, and other various wild lifting ideas. Can you still build muscle while doing those things? Certainly Yes. Do those things cause more risk for injury, burnout, and joint / tendon issues? Yes again. Who’s shoulders will be bigger? The guy who does 9 sets of 8-16 reps or the guy who does 15-20 sets @ the same rep range? Answer = The guy with the best genetics and or is on the highest amount of AAS. Which one will mostly likely have less tendon / joint, and injury issues? Obvious answer right? At the end of the day, your biceps will not end up 3inches bigger because you did strait bar curls over EZ bar curls.
Don’t sweat the small stuff and perfect what counts.
Good Luck Guy

[jacked889]

Thanks, I'm just trying to get as many opinions as I can. I get extremely frustrated when I don't see results.

[kelevra]

as do we all my man...

[terraj]

wow thats it? What rep range are you doing?

do you think you could post your full routine?

Find what works for you, but for me by a long way it is, low volume, high frequency training.

3 day split, 3 on 1 off

2 or 3 exercises rotated each workout, so it's one exercise per workout, aiming for progressive overload each workout, 3 rep ranges each workout.

Example

Chest

Flat Db 1st set of 5-8 reps. 2nd set 8-12 reps. 3rd set 12-15 reps. Weight decreases by around 15-20% each set. You chest will be toast and sore for days if you hit failure on each of the 3 sets, thats it.

chest/back
legs/abs
shoulders/arms

It is that simple IMO, progressive overload gives you mass with the right foods of course.

[terraj]

LOL. You’re starting to make it to complicated (diet and nutrition are complicated) not the lifting. Besides I’ve hounded you since day one to reduce your volume. It isn’t all about rep range and those minor things. It is about the right amount of quality. Very few guys under train…. The guy that does is sitting in front of his xbox 4 or 5 days a week. Not the feller that hits the gym routinely. And of those guys in the age bracket of 18-whatever usually over train. IMO! That means to many reps, sets, different exercises, to long of a duration, to many forced reps, and other various wild lifting ideas. Can you still build muscle while doing those things? Certainly Yes. Do those things cause more risk for injury, burnout, and joint / tendon issues? Yes again. Who’s shoulders will be bigger? The guy who does 9 sets of 8-16 reps or the guy who does 15-20 sets @ the same rep range? Answer = The guy with the best genetics and or is on the highest amount of AAS. Which one will mostly likely have less tendon / joint, and injury issues? Obvious answer right? At the end of the day, your biceps will not end up 3inches bigger because you did strait bar curls over EZ bar curls.
Don’t sweat the small stuff and perfect what counts.
Good Luck Guy

I disagree. Some guys get better results on a volume that might not work for others.

Finding the right way for each person body is key and most guys do to many sets with not enough intensity.

[jacked889]

Find what works for you, but for me by a long way it is, low volume, high frequency training.

3 day split, 3 on 1 off

2 or 3 exercises rotated each workout, so it's one exercise per workout, aiming for progressive overload each workout, 3 rep ranges each workout.

Example

Chest

Flat Db 1st set of 5-8 reps. 2nd set 8-12 reps. 3rd set 12-15 reps. Weight decreases by around 15-20% each set. You chest will be toast and sore for days if you hit failure on each of the 3 sets, thats it.

chest/back
legs/abs
shoulders/arms

It is that simple IMO, progressive overload gives you mass with the right foods of course.

Yeah I mean right now Im cutting but when I start to bulk I'll have to experiment with it. Like I said earlier I just want to maximize the gains when I run the h-drol. And alot of what I've seen says that 5x12 is best for muscular hypetrophy, which is why I was aiming for 10-15 reps.