Debate over declines.....

[thabeastmaster]

I did find a thread that briefly touched on this in the context of a conversation about incline presses and upper chest, and rather than necro that one (which really wasnt about decline's specifically) I thought it would make a potentially beneficial stand alone.

Im in the middle of a rather indepth and recently stalemated debate over the decline press with my lifting partner. I personally believe at this point the decline is the most effective at working the pectorals as a WHOLE and should be the "base" exercise of our chest routine. I didn't always feel this way as for years I subscribed to the "upper - incline, middle -flat, lower - decline" school simply because that was the most spoken of information.

What has made me change my thoughts is reading yet another article contradicting this 3 way specific type of theory. I have read others in the past but they were the minority, so I simply disregarded them. This most recent article just happened to explain it in a way that finally made me think. I then simply did the following action, that has me, personally, thinking in the current mindframe.

I extended both arms out directly in front of me zombie style. Then I concentrated on flexing my chest. Next, i elevated my arms to an angle such as that used in an incline press and flexed again. Lastly I lowered them to the angle of a decline. The difference was dramatic to say the least. In the "decline" position i was able to achieve a significantly superior contraction of the majority of the pecs. I then took the theory to the gym and experimented with some dumbells to evaluate the feeling in the context of the entirity of the range of motion. When thinking about it with a newly opened mind I noticed the same dramatic difference throughout the exercise. For years I simply ignored the exercise and when I did do it, I admittedly never gave it the appropriate amount of attention to give it a fair and objective chance.

A scientific study undoubtedly conclusive? HELL NO...I REALIZE THAT...LOL....but try it...see how it feels. At the very least it opened my mind to the idea that there is something to be said about the decline. Often we hear of how people can decline more than they can in the other positions. If it is as much an isolation exercise as the incline, it should be equally challenging to use heavier weight unless just maybe, more pec fibers are in fact being activated.

I often wonder how much of what we do, and what we SWEAR to be "true" is perhaps bias based on what we have heard and readily accepted simply because it is so prevalent.

Now, before somebody else says it...allow me to inject my disclaimer...I realize we are all individuals with unique builds and construction. The context of this question and conversation is "generally speaking" and merely to perhaps entertain a healthy exchange.


What are your thoughts?

[oatmeal69]

The more I read and learn, the more I'm starting to think that it isn't the exercise in particular, but the intensity and overload which causes the muscle to grow. In other words, someone who goes beyond failure and destroys the muscle on a flat bench is going to do way more for himself than someone who just "does his sets" on several different movements.

[tigerspawn]

I personally believe at this point the decline is the most effective at working the pectorals as a WHOLE and should be the "base" exercise of our chest routine.

I get a better workout from flies than from presses. The bottom of the movements stretches the fascia and helps the muscle in growth. The top of the movement allows you to get a better contraction than you could ever get with presses.

[thabeastmaster]

True....but lets remove the variable of an individual's work ethic......that's the essence of the question. If the same intensity and overload is applied to each "angle", which one could possibly yield the most pectoral stimulation? They can't be the same, that much should be easily agreed upon.

[thabeastmaster]

I get a better workout from flies than from presses. The bottom of the movements stretches the fascia and helps the muscle in growth. The top of the movement allows you to get a better contraction than you could ever get with presses.

can't argue with that!! I think my statement should have been more specific referencing amongst the presses.....I have always had flys as a part of my routines and that was simply because I always felt they gave me the deepest work.

[cj111]

I haven't done decline in years, and probably never will again. Hurts my shoulder from a rotator cuff injury. Slight incline dumbell press is my bread and butter. Never been a fan of flat bench or any bench pressing for that matter, to each their own though!

[tigerspawn]

I haven't done decline in years, and probably never will again. Hurts my shoulder from a rotator cuff injury. Slight incline dumbell press is my bread and butter. Never been a fan of flat bench or any bench pressing for that matter, to each their own though!

Thats strange that declines hurt your rotator. Inclines usually put more stress on the rotator than any press. Several of the pros that have rotator problems use decline since out of all the pressing movements it puts the least amount of stress on the rotator.

[Turkish Juicer]

I get a better workout from flies than from presses. The bottom of the movements stretches the fascia and helps the muscle in growth. The top of the movement allows you to get a better contraction than you could ever get with presses.

You are not alone

[West Coast Winner]

I get a better workout from flies than from presses. The bottom of the movements stretches the fascia and helps the muscle in growth. The top of the movement allows you to get a better contraction than you could ever get with presses.

Same here. Totally the case today in the gym. I even started rotating the dumbells to help me build up some more muscle in the centre of my chest and cover up that sternum a bit

[gearbox]

Thats strange that declines hurt your rotator. Inclines usually put more stress on the rotator than any press. Several of the pros that have rotator problems use decline since out of all the pressing movements it puts the least amount of stress on the rotator.

Thats why I stick without decline

[gearbox]

Thats why I stick with decline

I use cables for flies

[kronik420]

my chest routine:

flat db press

decline db press

incline db press

close grip bb bench press

chest is sore for 3-4 days after..

[dbyrd26]

I tend to feel it more in the inner part of my pecs when I do decline. But I don't think I've ever had a chest day where I focused on only decline exercises. I'm gonna give it a shot.

[rollingthunder]

mark rippetoe is not a fan...

from "starting strength" 3rd edition:

"the decline bench is a rather useless exercise..." pg 251

"the decline press gets recommended for its effects on the "lower pecs", but dips perform this function more effectively" pg 252

and

"declines are dangerous because if their point of contact on the lower sternum gets missed, the next stop is the throat." pg 252

i've never done declines but i see guys in the gym doing them every day.

[tigerspawn]

On Marcus’s thread Learn how to train - High Intesnity Training chest and biceps section Dorian Yates' Blood & Guts Trainer: Chest & Biceps - Bodybuilding.com - YouTube Dorian yates states that decline is best chest press and why he thinks so.

[tigerspawn]

On Marcus’s thread http://forums.steroid.com/lifting-te...-training.html chest and biceps section Dorian Yates' Blood & Guts Trainer: Chest & Biceps - Bodybuilding.com - YouTube Dorian yates states that decline is best chest press and why he thinks so.

[baseline_9]

I get a better workout from flies than from presses. The bottom of the movements stretches the fascia and helps the muscle in growth. The top of the movement allows you to get a better contraction than you could ever get with presses.

No chance.... There is hardly any tension at the top of a fly with dumbells..... If your not able to keep tension on the chest during a pressing movement at the top I'd advise you learn how to..... Start by retracting your shoulders and contracting your traps hard during the movement....

True....but lets remove the variable of an individual's work ethic......that's the essence of the question. If the same intensity and overload is applied to each "angle", which one could possibly yield the most pectoral stimulation? They can't be the same, that much should be easily agreed upon.

Decline Dumbell Press has been shown to stimulate the most pictorial muscle fibres than any other chest exercise.....


Most guys who moan about needing more upper chest just need more chest.... They are lacking a chest, not an upper chest lol

If you can do declines effectively they are probably optimal for overall pictorial recruitment

[tigerspawn]

No chance.... There is hardly any tension at the top of a fly with dumbells..

I agree thats why I use cable flyes

[gearbox]

No chance.... There is hardly any tension at the top of a fly with dumbells..... If your not able to keep tension on the chest during a pressing movement at the top I'd advise you learn how to..... Start by retracting your shoulders and contracting your traps hard during the movement....

Decline Dumbell Press has been shown to stimulate the most pictorial muscle fibres than any other chest exercise.....

Most guys who moan about needing more upper chest just need more chest.... They are lacking a chest, not an upper chest lol

If you can do declines effectively they are probably optimal for overall pictorial recruitment

I always wanted to say that. "You gave no upper chest cause you do not really have a chest" lol
Thanks base