cycling estrogen for transgender women -- anything like cycling testosterone?

[raquelphx]

I must admit I have a bad feeling about asking this here, but I have to try. If the topic horrifies you then feel free to skip it

I'm a transsexual woman (male to female). I've been on estrogen for several years. I'm sure a lot of you guys here know it can be difficult to educate yourself on hormones that aren't necessarily available through legitimate means. But at least you guys have a great forum like this, and it's obvious to me from browsing around that there are very smart people here working hard to help their community.

To those of you thinking, "Ahh! Freak!" Well, I'm a tall woman, but children don't run crying when they see me. And contrary to popular belief, my goal in life isn't to seduce unknowing men then show them my birth certificate and say, "Ha! You're gay!"

And to those thinking, "Go post this in one of your tranny forums," ...

Well, the transsexual community isn't so helpful. I have to give them credit for the varying degrees of success they've had coping with the mental/physical disaster of a life they've been given, but they can be a nutty bunch, and they are largely uneducated about hormones. All they know is what gets repeated by their doctors -- doctors who follow archaic hormone regimens and prescribe ineffective dosages because they're terrified of someone getting a blood clot and suing them. This is why 99% of trans women these days have no hips and need to get boob jobs, even though they're under a doctor's supervision. That wasn't the case in the 80s when trans women just took handfulls of birth control pills and hoped for the best (not that that was a good idea). Transsexuals don't tend to know much about what they put in their bodies (although they think they do), and they mostly condemn those of us who try to educate ourselves and order medication that actually has the potential to be effective.

ANYWAY,

I took estradiol valerate injections for two years (along with spironolactone as an anti-androgen), and it didn't really do much for me. Having an A-cup wasn't so bad because I'm tall and thin. But I wanted to try something else. And I hate spironolactone because it's a diuretic and it made me feel half hungover all the time.

So I switched to taking 150mcg/day ethinylestradiol as my estrogen and cyproterone acetate as my anti-androgen (along with 2.5mg/day finasteride). Having been on anti-androgens for so long I don't really seem to get any benefit from high doses, so I only take 25mg/day of cypro.

When I switched to ethinylestradiol, I grew a full cup size in three months. But development tapered off. So that's where I'm at now -- 6'0" with a B-cup. Which is fine for a girl with a flat stomach. But more would be nice.

So I decided to switch to cycling my ethinylestradiol. I was planning on cycling every 28 days, doing 1 week with no ethinylestradiol, 1 week with 300mcg, 1 week with 100mcg, then 1 week with 200mcg, then start over and go back to a week off. My ethinylestradiol is Ovral-G which also has norgestrel in it. The monthly cycle with two separate peaks is basically trying to emulate the normal estrogen cycle (which you can see a good picture of if you look on the Wikipedia page for "Menstrual Cycle").

But I don't necessarily think there's any reason to follow a natural 28-day cycle. I'm not trying to give myself PMS. I just want the best development. Obviously cycling testosterone for you guys is very different, but in ways it's similar. I know you guys do cycles that are much longer than 28 days and you're just doing what you think will work the best, so I was hoping for some input if anybody had any ideas what might theoretically be good for transgender HRT.

I've read some stuff saying that cycling works because it's good to give your estrogen receptors a break. The most legitimate-sounding info I read actually sounded more like the problem was SHBG getting all tied up so the estrogen stops working as well if you don't give it a rest now and then. The people actually reporting their results from cycling estrogen are pretty limited, but they're pretty positive. Still, these people are no geniuses. They don't really know what they're doing and they tend to just be trying to mimic the menstrual cycle.

Thanks!

[Bryan2]

Well every receptor needs a break otherwise you run the risk of over saturization(sp?) if thats even a word.

In your case I dont think it will make much of a difference though. I couldn't really say though because I dont know how estrogen works for your purposes. But in regards to when women go through puberty how long does it take before breast growth stops? I would think it takes at least a full year of peak estrogen levels for breast tissue to stop growing right? So you may be hindering your goals when you cycle like you are doing now.

Then again Im not sure exactly what goes into breast size to begin with because all women are different. I dont think estrogen is the only factor there. I would usually say its all coded into a persons genetics on breast size. However that doesn't apply to you because you are supplying hormones externally that your body does not make on its own and such would not be coded into your genetics due to not being born a female.

Im sure there are doctors/forums out there that more directly relate to what you are trying to accomplish as I doubt you will get any experts here.

[raquelphx]

Thanks. I just wasn't sure exactly why guys cycle testosterone . Like, if it's because of the receptors being saturated, or more because you can't stay on it too long without getting gynecomastia , or what.

There's actually not much good info out there for transgender HRT. There are some questionable places like Yahoo groups of people who tell each other what to order online. All the big forums where you should be able to get information are just full of people saying to just take what your doctor says, and the majority of doctors don't really have much experience and don't want to give you anything much stronger than they'd prescribe to a menopausal woman.

[Atomini]

Thanks. I just wasn't sure exactly why guys cycle testosterone. Like, if it's because of the receptors being saturated, or more because you can't stay on it too long without getting gynecomastia, or what.

There's actually not much good info out there for transgender HRT. There are some questionable places like Yahoo groups of people who tell each other what to order online. All the big forums where you should be able to get information are just full of people saying to just take what your doctor says, and the majority of doctors don't really have much experience and don't want to give you anything much stronger than they'd prescribe to a menopausal woman.

Receptor saturation is a myth - it was discovered a long while ago in a clinical study that in the presence of supraphysiological levels of androgens, the number of receptors inside target cells INCREASES. More receptors actually grow in response to anabolic steroids . As for gynecomastia , that is easily combated through ancilliary dug application (aromatase inhibitors, SERMs, etc.).

My best advice is that you should head to the Q&A section, and then go into the educational threads section and do a lot of reading. There is a lot of information there that can and will answer your questions regarding why men cycle testosterone .

If I could give an answer in a nutshell, the reason why we 'cycle' it is to avoid any long term damage from using supraphysological amounts of AAS. The idea with cycling is to get on, make your gains, and then get off before the body can, for the lack of a better term, 'catch on' to what is going on. With prolonged use of AAS, not only can you encounter permanent health issues, but the effectiveness of the anabolic steroid decreases over time. This is because your body has begun secreting and producing hormones and proteins that are antagonistic to the anabolic steroids you are using (this is what I meant, going back to what I said about your body 'catching on').

[JAB1]

Interesting topic. I dont have any info for you other than reading through the info here will certainly educate you on hormones and how they work in the body in general, Im guessing alot of the principals are similar regardless of whether you are increasing test and controlling est(most of us), or increasing est and controlling test(you, and Im sure some others that filter through here). Fyi I have an employee that is going through transgender hrt right now, about a year in I believe. All doctor prescribed so yeah seems like a long slow process, im sure with education here and elsewhere you can have some success in self prescribing to meet your goals once you have obtained a comfortable level of education. Good Luck!

[JohnnyVegas]

I am interested in seeing answers to these questions. Everyone here is focused on testosterone , and most of our time is spent avoiding high levels of estrogen.

[raquelphx]

I just thought I'd leave an update in case anyone here is interested.

So every day I've been taking:
25mg Cyproterone Acetate (half an Androcur)
2.5mg Finasteride (half a Proscar)

and 3X Ovral-G, which adds up to 150mcg Ethinylestradiol and 1.5mg Norgestrel.

I don't think I was really thinking enough about what a high dose of progestin that is, though. 1.5mg Norgestrel contains 750mcg Levonorgestrel. And one version of the morning after pill is two 750mcg doses of Levonorgestrel. So it's not an unsafe amount, but it's still a lot.

So I decided to try cycling off for a week. I went up to 4X Ovral-G pills/day for a week, and then last Sunday I went totally off it (but still on the Cyproterone and Finasteride).

Tuesday I had a really upsetting dream involving my abusive ex that freaked me out for half the day. Wednesday I had another really intense dream that I was in the desert being attacked by a dog for hours. Then Thursday my boobs got really sore and felt bigger. I can't put any pressure on them sleeping. Friday I woke up and I was a full cup size bigger, and my boobs were really firm. So things stayed about the same, and no more terrifying dreams, but then today (Sunday) I laid down to take a nap, and I woke up after about 20 minutes, and I'm thinking, "Why am I wet???" and the pillow I had rolled over on had two wet spots and there were drips coming out of both my boobs.

So I've gone and made myself lactate by dropping off a massive dose of progesterone so suddenly. Not exactly what I was going for.

But see, Testosterone isn't the only steroid that does magical things.

[MickeyKnox]

welcome.

i hope youre able to find some answers here.

[Times Roman]

Welcome to the board!
---Roman

[raquelphx]

Thanks, guys. For a big online forum you guys are pretty classy.