06-07-2005, 10:23 AM #1
vitamin c and cortisol(anyone upp for a experiment)
this from hookers profile on cytadren
If you are thinking about using Cytadren for this purpose, I’d have to tell you to forget it. Three grams of Vitamin C lowers your Cortisol around as much as 1,000mgs of Cytadren, from the literature I’ve seen on both, and the Vitamin C doesn’t do it at the expense of your adrenal responsiveness (7). A gram of Vitamin C lowered cortisol by 1/3rd in UltraMarathon Competitors(8) (these are the people who apparently don’t have cars, so they feel compelled to run 90 kilometers at a time). I just can’t justify taking Cytadren for an extended period of time to reduce cortisol, when Vitamin can do the same thing, more cheaply, and has other added benefits.
This struck me now but when I was sic for several weeks I megadosed vitamin c the whole time and when I got back into the gym I was STRONGER then before even though I had lost weight and not lifted for like 2,5-3 weeks.
I would like to find out if a noticable difference in gains/losses can be noticed with megadosing vitamin c so Im curious if anyone here would be willing to try eating 5grams of vitamin c daily for a period and compere it with a period with no vitamin c supplements. Im going to start using 5 grams/Day myself as soon as my stomach is totaly recovered(ascorbic acid and ulcer doesnt go hand in hand lol).
06-07-2005, 10:26 AM #2
this should have been in the diet forum so if any mod can move it there I would be gratefull
06-08-2005, 06:28 AM #3
im up for it i only use 1 g a day once in the morning and at nite no problem with the 5gs thing how long tho ???
06-08-2005, 06:59 AM #4Writer
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
Charles Poliquin (*one of the top trainers in the world) was up for an experiment. His athletes take 50g IV, 2-3x a week. He said they experience amazing gains....guys who are 6% bf or so get to under 3%, they get huge strength increases, etc...
06-08-2005, 07:22 AM #5
hooker iv 2-3 times a week? Doesnt ascorbic acid leave the body very quickly? How would one go about duplicating that experiment at home with oral use? What dosage do you think would be needed oraly to notice a difference?
I would like to try upp to 20g/day but my stomach doesnt like it. Got any idea what I can mix it with to make it less acidic? Just any otc antiacid?
crystal I guess we would run it for like 5-6 weeks atleast?
06-08-2005, 07:31 AM #6
20g sh!t!!! That would be like 40 pills right?
Although I'm interested in this theory also
06-08-2005, 07:34 AM #7
bor most vitamin c pills I se contains 1g. But it is much cheaper if you buy vitamin c powder(pure ascorbic acid). I get 90gram for 6 dollars here and its in sweden so I bet you can get it for half the price there, since everything is so god damn expensive here.
06-08-2005, 07:37 AM #8
I wouldn't suggest messing with Vitamin C that way. You have to be slowly weined onto and off of Vitamin C, or you could cause damage to the kidneys. I would assume you had the increase in strength because of the break from working out and because of the detox effect of the Vitamin C, but to take high doses of Vitamin C and working out at the same time can be very dangerous. In warfare, POW's have been given high doses of vitamin C to prevent them from trying to escape. When you have high levels of vitamin C in your system and you try to exert yourself physically, you get a sharp rush of pain in your dead that pretty much stops you in your tracks. If your in that condition with a 300 lb barbell over your chest.......I don't really need to go on.
And the athletes were taking 50g of what through an IV?? That can't be vitamin C.
06-08-2005, 07:41 AM #9
DBarcelo in the 50s a doc cured polio with 150-200g vitamin c daily iv. Doesages like that isnt unheard of. Or I have yet to verify the studie but its spread over the internet. Just cant remeber the docs name right now.
I continued the vitamin c until I ran out and did workout without a problem. Took around 10-15g/day. Didnt notice any problem. But maby I was just lucky. Need to read a bit on the kidney thing. In what way does it do hard to kidneys?
06-08-2005, 07:48 AM #10
If the toss up is between polio and a possible organ failure, risking the organ failure is the wiser thing to do. But that is a large dosage and I'm sure they didn't just suddenly give that large dosage.
In order to really explain the harm caused you have to get into micro-biology and I don't quite remember all of the terms. In any case, the way the kidneys clean the blood in the nephrons is a chemical process in tiny loops that cause toxins to be drawn out. That chemical process and the chemical makup of vitamin C kind of clash with eachother. The body can adjust and compensate, but a very large amount of vitamin C in a very short time can over load the system and prevent the kidneys from being able to extract any of the toxins at all.
06-08-2005, 07:51 AM #11
I still find it hard to belive Poliquin would take such a risk with his athletes. Got any idea on how one should build upp the dosage and how high a dosage it has to be to be harmfull? Im very curious about this but dont want to harm myself in anyway.
Btw this might sound like a silly question but cant a pigs kidney be transplanted into a human? Reason Im asking is because pigs produce 10g vitamin c daily and even more when sic/stressed....
06-08-2005, 07:54 AM #12
Kidney stone formation is another major risk.
06-08-2005, 07:54 AM #13
yes that would be a bitch for sure ouch.
06-08-2005, 07:58 AM #14Vitamins E and C are safe across a broad range of intakes.
Hathcock JN, Azzi A, Blumberg J, Bray T, Dickinson A, Frei B, Jialal I, Johnston CS, Kelly FJ, Kraemer K, Packer L, Parthasarathy S, Sies H, Traber MG.
Council for Responsible Nutrition, Washington, DC, USA. firstname.lastname@example.org
A robust database shows that dietary supplements of vitamins E and C are safe for the general population. Because these nutrients supply antioxidant and other functions for homeostasis and protection against free radical damage, supplementation has been intensively studied. Because of perceived benefits, many persons consume quantities of vitamins E and C well above the recommended dietary allowances. As safety guidance, tolerable upper intake levels have been established by the Food and Nutrition Board, Institute of Medicine, at 1000 mg for vitamin E and 2000 mg for vitamin C in adults. Many clinical trials with these vitamins have involved subjects with various diseases, and no consistent pattern of adverse effects has occurred at any intake. Numerous studies of vitamin C supplementation have provided no pattern of evidence to support concerns about safety other than occasional gastrointestinal upset or mild diarrhea resulting from the osmotic effects of unabsorbed quantities of vitamin C. Evidence of bleeding effects and other potential adverse effects of high vitamin E intakes in humans is not convincing. Evidence of adverse effects of vitamin C that result from its effects on iron absorption and metabolism has not been confirmed in clinical trials. Thus, we conclude from clinical trial evidence that vitamin E supplements appear safe for most adults in amounts </=1600 IU (1073 mg RRR-alpha-tocopherol or the molar equivalent of its esters) and that vitamin C supplements of </=2000 mg/d are safe for most adults.
06-08-2005, 08:02 AM #15
No, a pigs kidney can't be transplanted into a person at least not successfully. In kidney transplant you have to look at a number of compatability factors. Blood has to be a match or at least compatible (donar is A+ and patient is A+, or donar is O- and patient is A+). Then you have to match antibodies. If the antibodies are too far off, the kidney will emediately fail. No two people have identical antibodys, but most hospitals look for like a 14 point match or a 10 point match. A pig isn't going to have even a 5 point match in most cases.
I also find it hard to believe that someone would take such a risk with athletes also. Now Vitamin C because of it being an anti-oxidant can decrease recoup time between workouts, so it is possible to give a person vitamin C but give the body enough time to absorb it before doing the actual workout. For example administer the vitamin C in the morning and have the workout in the late afternoon and then administer the vitamin C after the workout. Or only administer the vitamin C after the workout. But that doesn't decrease the risk of kidney stones.
06-08-2005, 08:04 AM #16
What general ways is there to prevent kidney stone? High water consumption?
06-08-2005, 08:07 AM #17Vitamin C for preventing and treating the common cold.
Douglas RM, Hemila H, D'Souza R, Chalker EB, Treacy B.
National Centre for Epidemiology and Population Health, Australian National University, 34 Nungara Place, Aranda, ACT, Australia, 2614.
BACKGROUND: The role of oral vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in the prevention and treatment of the common cold has been a subject of controversy for at least sixty years. Public interest in the topic continues to be high and vitamin C continues to be widely sold and used as a preventive and therapeutic agent for this common ailment. OBJECTIVES: To discover whether oral vitamin C in doses of 200 mg or more daily, reduces the incidence, duration or severity of the common cold when used either as continuous prophylaxis or after the onset of cold symptoms. SEARCH STRATEGY: This updated review added to earlier searches, a full search of the following electronic databases: the Central Register of Controlled Trials (CENTRAL) (The Cochrane Library Issue 2, 2004); MEDLINE (January 1966 to June 2004); and EMBASE (1990 to June 2004). SELECTION CRITERIA: Papers were excluded if a dose less than 200 mg daily of vitamin C was used; if there was no placebo comparison; if methods of outcome assessment were inadequately described; and if the report did not record any of the three study outcomes (incidence, duration or severity) in sufficient detail to enter into the meta-analysis. Three criteria of study quality were assessed: Jadad scores, placebo distinguish-ability, and allocation concealment. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: Two reviewers independently extracted data and assessed trial quality. 'Incidence' of colds during prophylaxis was assessed as the proportion of participants experiencing one or more colds during the study period. 'Duration' was the mean days of illness of cold episodes and 'severity' of these episodes was assessed by days confined indoors, off work or school. or by symptom severity scores. MAIN RESULTS: Twenty-nine trial comparisons involving 11,077 study participants contributed to the meta-analysis on the relative risk (RR) of developing a cold while taking prophylaxis. The pooled RR was 0.96 (95% CI 0.92 to 1.00). A subgroup of six trials that involved a total of 642 marathon runners, skiers, and soldiers on sub-arctic exercises reported a pooled RR of 0.50 (95%CI 0.38 to 0.66).Thirty comparisons that involved 9,676 respiratory episodes contributed to the meta-analysis on common cold duration during prophylaxis . A consistent benefit was observed, representing a reduction in cold duration of 8% (95% CI 3% to 13%) for adult participants and 13.5% (95% CI 5% to 21%) for child participants.Fifteen trial comparisons that involved 7,045 respiratory episodes contributed to the meta-analysis of severity of episodes experienced while on prophylaxis. The pooled results revealed a difference favouring those on vitamin C when days confined to home and off work or school were taken as a measure of severity (p = 0.02), and when restricting to studies which used symptom severity scores (p = 0.16), and for the both measures of severity combined (p = 0.004).Seven trial comparisons that involved 3,294 respiratory episodes contributed to the meta-analysis of cold duration during therapy with vitamin C that was initiated after the onset of cold symptoms, and no significant difference from placebo was seen.Four trial comparisons that involved 2,753 respiratory episodes, contributed to the meta-analysis of cold severity during therapy and no significant difference from placebo was seen.In laboratory studies, differing methods of artificial transmission of virus to vitamin C or placebo treated volunteers in residential experiments gave different results. Volunteers infected by nasal installation showed small or no benefit from vitamin C, whereas a group who were infected more naturally, reported less severe symptom severity scores (p = 0.04). REVIEWERS' CONCLUSIONS: The failure of vitamin C supplementation to reduce the incidence of colds in the normal population indicates that routine mega-dose prophylaxis is not rationally justified for community use. But evidence shows that it could be justified in persons exposed to brief periods of severe physical exercise and/or cold environments. Also, the consistent and statistically significant small benefits on duration and severity for those using regular vitamin C prophylaxis indicates that vitamin C plays some role in respiratory defence mechanisms. The trials in which vitamin C was introduced at the onset of colds as therapy did not show any benefit in doses up to 4 grams daily, but one large trial reported equivocal benefit from an 8 gram therapeutic dose at onset of symptoms.
PMID: 15495002 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
06-08-2005, 08:11 AM #18
They are only dealing with 2 grams and I would assume that it's for a reason. You have to question everything when it comes to research, especially WHY they're doing it and WHO's funding this research. If it's Florida orange that's funding you, you're going to say possitive things and avoid anything negative. High doses of vitamin C have been known to cause problems in the circulitory system and the kidneys. It is still suggested that a person consult with a doctor before supplimenting with Vitamin C for this reason. I think 3g and 4g per day is the point that the most problems start to occur. So cutting it off at 2 grams would make sense and then writing it at 2000 mg instead of 2g makes it look like a huge dosage is okay to take with no problems. Also, a short term study isn't good enough. Long term studies are needed in order to find problems like kidney stone formation.
06-08-2005, 08:14 AM #19
When a person has a cold is about the only time that it's considered okay to give a high dosage with no weining period. The vitamin C is being broken down a great deal before any organ damage can occur.
06-08-2005, 08:14 AM #20
Yesh but short term is more accurate in this case since Im only suggesting a 6 week period or so. Im not doubting your knoweldge bro, just trying to learn, I am fascinated by minerals, vitamins, antioxidants and efa's and want to leanr how to implement them not only for health but for bodybuilding goals.
06-08-2005, 08:16 AM #21
Is the increased breakdown of vitamin c caused by the increase in oxidants when sic? Or is there any other process when sic that breaksdown the vitamin c?
That might explain why I saw no side effects(not even diharrea)with my mega dosing since I started to take it when I was sic(viral tonsilitis)
06-08-2005, 08:18 AM #22
Large amounts of water should help prevent the kidney stones while supplimenting Vitamin C.
06-08-2005, 08:19 AM #23
btw I meant free radicals not oxidants in my earlier post. But I guess they both are the same
06-08-2005, 08:22 AM #24
Yes, because there are more oxidents in the body for the Vitamin C to bind to. And I mean to just gather the data short term. You can start the process of developing a kidney stone, but it can take months for the stone to enter the urinary tract. While the stone is in the kidney, you don't even know it's there. Six months later when the study is over, then the stone falls and you end up in the hospital.
06-08-2005, 08:23 AM #25
Yeah, one in the same. We call a few different things oxidants.
06-08-2005, 08:24 AM #26
Compered to a cold. How much free radicals do intense workouts create?
06-08-2005, 08:28 AM #27
06-08-2005, 08:30 AM #28
here is the part
TC: HA! Yep, I’ve noticed that! Hey, what were you telling me the other day about intravenous Vitamin C and insulin sensitivity and hyperbaric chambers?
CP: Well, I got bit in the ass by a brown recluse spider and I got mono-like symptoms, and I never felt so bad in my life. I talked to one of my reps, and she referred me to a doctor in Denver and I went to see this guy who treated me with Vitamin C. First they confirmed that it was a brown recluse spider bite, and I was in danger, basically, of losing my butt cheek.
I got treated with the Vitamin C and put in a hyperbaric chamber, and within 36 hours I was asymptomatic. I still had a lump of venom in there, and I kept doing the treatments and I got rid of the venom and all the effects.
When you get bit by a brown recluse, you get necrotic fasciaitis, so people who get bit in the nose can lose their nose, people who get bit in the arm can lose their arm, etc, so by doing the super-high dose of Vitamin C—I was getting 180 grams twice a day–by IV, I was able to save my tissue.
However, interestingly, the guy told me that he had to monitor my blood sugar every 20 minutes. He said that such a high dose of Vitamin C has a considerable glycemic response, so I actually had to drink a gallon of grape juice while getting this Vitamin C treatment because my blood sugar levels were just falling,
However, after doing the Vitamin C, and despite ingesting so many carbs, I was actually leaner when I left the clinic!
Then I went on-line and found the research that intravenous Vitamin C changes insulin sensitivity, so I started experimenting on myself. I was at 6% body fat when I started to do 180 grams of Vitamin C twice a week for a month, and I got down to 2.8% body fat without changing anything else. I asked the doctors on my staff to start using the procedure on my athletes and we figured out that in 4 weeks, we could get body composition changes in 4 weeks that we normally get in 10 weeks.
06-08-2005, 08:31 AM #29
A very intense workout can cause almost as much. But if you take the Vitamin C just before the workout, then you risk the effect I was describing before. That's why I said to take it right after the workout or hours before the workout. But the best effect would be to take it just after the workout. And then drink plenty of water all day to try to prevent the cystine stones from forming. Or try to get your hands on some Thiola or Cuprimine. Water doesn't always help with preventing that type of kidney stone.
06-08-2005, 08:33 AM #30
Now we are getting somewhere So maby something like 4-5 grams post workout along with the shake and HUGE ammounts of water would be very benifical to recovery while not having to much side effects except the higher risk for kidney stone
06-08-2005, 08:34 AM #31
Dr. Pierce's Tip of the Week - Archive
Archived Tip: Vitamin C: Think you know it All? Think Again!
Posted: March 05, 2004
As most of are readers are probably aware, Vitamin C is an antioxidant that is required for tissue growth and repair, adrenal gland function, and also helps fight off infectious diseases to name a few. Vitamin C is found in berries, citrus fruits, and green vegetables. Good food sources would include asparagus, broccoli, avocados, mangos, and spinach. We obviously do not have to sell you on the idea that Vitamin C is essential for optimal health and for optimizing progress in the gym, however we did want to share some new information pertaining to its disease curing effects and a more effective way of its delivery.
Dr. Levy (full c.v. on the web at www.TomLevyMD.com) author of "Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, & Toxins, gave a private seminar at our center over the weekend and offered some compelling and amazing research and practical evidence of what Vitamin C can really do. Dr. Levy suggests using the injectable form of ascorbic acid for a number of specific reasons. He believes that for Vitamin C to perform its specific tasks in killing bacteria, fungi, and other microbial agents, Vitamin C should be intravenously injected. In contrast to the oral form of Vitamin C, this allows the patient to receive a much higher dose. Research has previously indicated that 10 g of ascorbic acid given orally to patients may cause liver stress, but by bypassing the liver with an intravenous push you can significantly increase the dose to 50-100g.
In addition, Vitamin C in the injectable form seems to have a specific effect on increasing insulin sensitivity. We have observed this very important function many times here at the center. The day after an athlete receives and I.V. push of Vitamin C, their body fat usually decreases 1-2%.
Dr. Levy is a true pioneer in innovative methods for curing disease and promoting health with noninvasive methods such as Vitamin C I.V pushes and drips. We highly recommend his book and are truly grateful of his presence over the weekend!
Want More Tips? Visit the Tip of the Week Archive
06-08-2005, 08:35 AM #32
Not via IV though. But yes. He had doctors supervising everything and he doesn't say what time of day, before or after workout, etc.
06-08-2005, 08:39 AM #33
Oral does cut it, just not for emergency situations like what was described. In the ER you need fast acting agents. And you're being monitored.
06-08-2005, 08:43 AM #34
I guess I need to find a doc here in my town that is willing to experiment on me lmao. I want those dramatic results
Anyway what dosage post workout do you think would be the highest without beeing to dangerous? 3-5grams?
This turned into a very interesting thread. What kind of education do you have Dbarcelo?
06-08-2005, 08:53 AM #35
I would say 3 grams per day max. That should give you a working 2 grams in your system orally. That should be low enough that drinking water should prevent the cystine stones (or at least keep them small enough that you hardly notice them pass).
06-08-2005, 08:53 AM #36
06-08-2005, 08:59 AM #37
If you want dramatic, just take the Vitamin C right after the workout. Take protein half an hour after the workout and then an hour later. Take creatine half an hour before the workout and take Juven twice per day. On top of that, eat six meals per day (not large meals, but a good amount). Also take a good multivitamin every day. That brings very dramatic results if you're working out the right way for your body to gain muscle.
06-08-2005, 09:13 AM #38
I already have all those things more or less dialed in. Sure I could probably improve diet a bit but who cant lol. This would just be another thing to add a little edge.
What is Juven?
06-08-2005, 09:16 AM #39Writer
Originally Posted by DBarcelo
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
06-08-2005, 09:17 AM #40
hooker what is the adress to that website? Im very interested in reading that.
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