Scared to Start TRT - Please Help

**kochi** · 03-31-2011, 01:51 PM

Hey Folks,

I had an injury last year this month that I have not gotten over. Was in the best shape of my life etc. Pulled my trap working out then went to a chiro that messed me up I think.

Anways a year later ever thing checks out except my thyroid and my Testosterone level. Both were debatable if I needed treatment or not.

My main symptoms right now are fatigue, headaches, depression, lack of interest, motivation etc.

My biggest challenge from trying to recover from this injury is that my body has just not respond and did not respond to PT or anything. I could fire of 20pullups no problem, now I can't even do 3. I am always in pain, and I am told it's all muscular.

My Testosterone Level is 289 (300-950) and my GP thinks I absolutely need it and it's the main cause of all my issues now. However my Internist and a Gyno don't think it's an issue at all.

So I am just not sure what to do and I then question, "IS MY T LOW?" "Do I need treatment?"

**sirupate** · 03-31-2011, 02:07 PM

Well, your total T level is just under the normal range...that means you are low. Free-T is really the number we are all interested in, but I don't know if that was tested for you. Regardless, free-T is probably low as well. You don't mention your age. Most guys when they are low are very much interested in being treated and you will probably feel much better if you get treated. That doesn't mean, of course, that you don't have other health issues going on that you aren't mentioning. But, if you can raise your T level into the top end of the normal range, you will feel better and probably recover better from your injury.

So, tell us why you are scared? Maybe we can provide information that can help you. Wait...you mentioned "gyno"...are you female? Whole different ballgame, but there are a few females that frequent here that can help as well.

**kochi** · 03-31-2011, 02:40 PM

Siruapte, thanks for the feedback. The did not test my Free T. I went to a new doc, GP, for a second opinion on Thyroid, and the first thing he mentioned was LOW T after explaining my issues. But I disregarded it (since I was on the thyroid route). 4months later here I am.

Basically Hypo and Low T both could explain my symptoms. I had/have sublicincal Hypothyroidism, meaning tsh was between 6-8. None of the docs thought I needed to be on it, except one because I was having symptoms. Now on 50mcg I become Hyperthyroid quick like, so I stopped doing that. I am on 2 weeks being off the LEVO will retest in 6 weeks to see if they level out on their own.

I had a pituitary MRI etc, and expensive blood work, everything checks out, but a VIT D deficiency, which I believe is corrected now.

I am a Male 33. I mean to say, ENDO and Internist both don't think the T is an issue. The Internist thinks the thyroid needs to be addressed and the ENDO thinks I don't need anything. My GP thinks is the LOW T and it's "in the dirt." Basically the level I am it is for a 21yr old girl or an 80yr old male.

SO I hesitate cause specialists think that It's not an issue and that it is all related to "anxiety." I have bean athletic all my life and always recovered from injuries and even play through them. Now I can't do pushups or have any energy all because I have anxiety.

I am scared because, well I hate medicine of any kind! I hate taking aspirin, and all that I have read on TRT, at least the risks scare me. I am paranoid of createing more problems and can't make decision. Then I read about the whole prostrate thing and even though it's not responsible for cancer etc it can still cause havoc. Then the whole issue of maybe that's just where my body should be and if I crank it up I will wear out by 50 or have many more problems when I am older...

**JohnnyVegas** · 03-31-2011, 03:42 PM

I hate doctors and medication as well, but here I am sticking myself with needs and feeling better. Everyone is different, so I don't pretend to know what you need, but I will say there is nothing to be afraid of. Many people hate needles, but injections were easy for me after the first one. The first one was hard, but that was just fear. They are relatively painless.

**grumpee** · 03-31-2011, 03:46 PM

I myself hate doctors and taking pills etc. I will not even take a aspirin . It took me awhile to finally take the plunge and go on TRT because of all the negative rumors out there.. I have been on for over a year now and my only regret was I did not do it any sooner. I actually count down the hours until I can pin myself now a days.. I sleep better, feel better, sex is better and life is just better.

**kochi** · 03-31-2011, 03:48 PM

Jonny I don't mind the injections. I actually was given the gel. The side effects freak me out, so I wonder do i really need this medicine?

**kochi** · 03-31-2011, 03:54 PM

Grumpee, what was your T level? what symptoms did you have?

**JohnnyVegas** · 03-31-2011, 03:55 PM

Everyone seems to hate the gel. Messy and inconsistent absorption would keep me away from it. What sides are you worried about?

**kochi** · 03-31-2011, 04:03 PM

" *
IMPORTANT SAFETY FACTS

Signs of puberty that are not expected have happened in young children who were accidentally exposed to testosterone through contact with men using AndroGel .

AndroGel can transfer from your body to others. This can happen if other people come into contact with the area where the AndroGel was applied to your skin.

Women and children should avoid contact with the unwashed or unclothed area where AndroGel has been applied.

To lower the risk of transfer of AndroGel:
o Apply AndroGel only to areas that will be covered by a short sleeve T-shirt. These areas are your shoulders and upper arms, or stomach area (abdomen), or shoulders, upper arms and stomach area.
o Do not apply AndroGel to your penis or scrotum.
o Wash your hands right away with soap and water after applying AndroGel.
o After the gel has dried, cover the application area with clothing. Keep the area covered until you have washed the application area well or have showered
o If you expect to have skin-to-skin contact with another person, first wash the application area well with soap and water.

If a woman or child makes contact with the AndroGel application area, that area on the woman or child should be washed well with soap and water right away.

Stop using AndroGel and call your healthcare provider right away if you see any signs and symptoms of puberty in a child, or changes in body hair or increased acne in a woman, that may have occurred through accidental exposure to AndroGel.

Reference: AndroGel [package insert]. Abbott Park, IL : Abbott Laboratories.

Click to view full Prescribing Information, including the Medication Guide, for AndroGel.
*
DO NOT USE if

Do not use AndroGel if you have breast cancer, have or might have prostate cancer, or are allergic to any of the ingredients in AndroGel including soy.

Do not use AndroGel in women who are pregnant, who may become pregnant, or are breast-feeding as AndroGel may harm the unborn or breast-feeding baby.

Women who are pregnant or who may become pregnant should avoid contact with the area of skin where AndroGel has been applied.

Reference: AndroGel [package insert]. Abbott Park, IL : Abbott Laboratories.

Click to view full Prescribing Information, including the Medication Guide, for AndroGel.
*
BEFORE USING AndroGel

Before you use AndroGel, tell your healthcare provider if you:
o Have breast cancer or prostate cancer
o Have urinary problems due to an enlarged prostate
o Have heart problems
o Have liver or kidney problems
o Have problems breathing while you sleep (sleep apnea)
o Have any other medical conditions

Tell your healthcare provider about all the medicines you take, especially if you take insulin , corticosteroids, or medicines that decrease blood clotting.

Reference: AndroGel [package insert]. Abbott Park, IL : Abbott Laboratories.

Click to view full Prescribing Information, including the Medication Guide, for AndroGel.
*
SIDE EFFECTS

AndroGel can cause serious side effects including:
o If you already have enlargement of your prostate gland, your signs and symptoms can get worse while using AndroGel (including changes in urination)
o Possible increased risk of prostate cancer
o In large doses, AndroGel may lower your sperm count
o Swelling of your ankles, feet, or body, with or without heart failure. This may cause serious problems for people who have heart, kidney, or liver disease
o Enlarged or painful male breasts
o Having problems breathing while you sleep (sleep apnea)
o Blood clots in the legs. This can include pain, swelling, or redness of your legs
"
Would you guys agree that my symptoms / levels warrant treatment?

**forrest_and_trees** · 03-31-2011, 11:19 PM

[Pardon the long post however, I believe in being thorough and the philosophy of teaching a man to fish in matters as important as this. Hope you find it useful.]

Yah, I'd say from the looks of your last post, that's pretty damn scary and no one can blame you for being concerned. However, you ever read the insert of cold medicine or Tylenol? They have to do that for legal purposes. Some issues are more significant than others. Mainly the contact with women and children, if you have children or a woman in your life, you have every reason to be concerned. The good news is, none of the contact concerns are an issue with injections, and everything else is pretty unlikely as long as you use responsibly, and get your blood tested regularly.

As for your symptoms, you only mentioned a couple and they don't really jump out at me. Your T is certainly low and I agree that should be addressed, but you lack *a lot* of the Hypothyroidism symptoms which makes me suspect that part of it may not be as big of an issue. Much of what you described sounds like it could be legitimate depression which, based on the what you've been through in the past year, no one could judge you for. You have every reason to be depressed. And if you're T is low, that certainly doesn't help. Getting it up to normal levels will do wonders for depression and the other symptoms you mentioned. I personally have both Low T and Hypothyroidism and I suffered from depression and can say without a doubt, TRT and Thyroid meds made ALL the difference. I feel like a whole new person. And unlike Viagra and antidepressants, TRT/HRT treat the cause, not just the symptom.

As for your thyroid, how do you know you were Hyper on the Thyroid med? What exactly were you taking? What were the symptoms? I ask because anxiety can mimic many of the signs of hyperthyroidism, and it kind of sounds a little like you're freaking out too. I'm not saying that to judge you, only point out a potential cause of some of your symptoms other than thyroid meds if you are indeed Hypo. Again, I speak from experience, because I've gone through it myself.

Don't get the wrong impression, I'm not trying to say your crazy or it's all in your head. Depression and anxiety are very real and certainly associated with Low T and HypoThyroid, I'm just saying they may be giving you false signals which could be misinterpreted. So it's best to rule out as much as possible and work your way to an answer by means of deduction.

Have you had a chance to researched *all* the symptoms of Hypothyroidism? There are *a lot*... maybe you have more symptoms than you are aware of? Or maybe it's not the issue and just the Low T, but either way, I'd say educating yourself as much as possible about BOTH maladies will give you a better idea of what is likely the cause. It could take forever to determine a cause if you're missing symptoms that you're not even aware of. Google is your friend... Just type in, "Symptoms of Hypothyroidism" and "Symptoms of Low T" and you'd be amazed at the amount of information there is.

We're all here to help, but in your case, things are a bit vague and you would benefit from learning more than we may be able to provide on this forum alone. I'm not trying to turn you away but I feel we could better help if we had more to go on. For the record, nothing aggravates me more than when I ask a question and seek out help on line and someone yells at me to "RTFM", so I understand where you're coming from. But in your case, I *really* do belive it would help to better educate yourself. Keep us posted and feel free to ask as many questions as you like. The more specific you can be, the better we can help point you in the right direction.

Best of luck.

F/T

**grumpee** · 04-01-2011, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by kochi

Grumpee, what was your T level? what symptoms did you have?

It was like 291. I had IBS,insomnia, fatique, low sex drive, Could not get below 18- 20% body fat and after a year back in the gym I could not gain anything or go up in my lifts. And that was not me. I grew up being a framer in awesome shape. Used to hit the gym hard in my early 20's. I used to be ripped and had good mass. After getting promoted into a office job then starting up my own construction company I got fat and out of shape over the years. Then after I started working out again I dropped 60+ pounds but I could not gain anything and thats when I went and got tested . When I first went on TRT I was 215 pounds and 18-20% bf. Since TRT and a few blast Iam currently 240 pounds at 14-15% body fat. All my lifts went up , My sex drive is better now than when I was a teenager and I feel like a new person all the way around.

I was afraid to go on TRT but it was either be on TRT or keep living a crappy life

**sirupate** · 04-01-2011, 06:26 AM

Kochi:

I was on the gel for a bit over a year. I think the contact issues are a bit overblown. My wife never had any issues over this past year and we had plenty of contact, if you get my drift. Still, I am sure it can be a concern, especially if there are children in your life. I am on injections now and if you can get over doing them yourself, it is a better way to go. Generally less expensive and more convenient. The guys here can help you get started the right way on that...they were and are a great resource for me.

**GotNoBlueMilk** · 04-01-2011, 07:26 AM

Kochi: I do Test Cyp and inject it SubQ. It is so painless it's not even worth worrying about. I now inject HCG too. I do T 2x/week and HCG 2x/week. Four days a week I inject SubQ. I have to admit that if I had to do this as muscular injections I would be freaked too! But if you don't want to go with the gel try to talk the doc into SubQ. If the doc won't go for it, you can always buy the 27G 1/2" needles online and do SubQ anyway if you are comfortable making your own decisions (ignoring the doc which isn't always wise and requires knowlege upfront) on this issue.

I had low D too. My baseline was 25 (30-110 normal). After 10 weeks on 10,000 IUs a day it was up to 37. Not optimal but making a comeback. I was surprised it wasn't a lot higher but such is life. The low numbers are harder to get up where they belong. Wish my LDL numbers were the same.

**sirupate** · 04-01-2011, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by GotNoBlueMilk

Kochi: I do Test Cyp and inject it SubQ. It is so painless it's not even worth worrying about. I now inject HCG too. I do T 2x/week and HCG 2x/week. Four days a week I inject SubQ. I have to admit that if I had to do this as muscular injections I would be freaked too! But if you don't want to go with the gel try to talk the doc into SubQ. If the doc won't go for it, you can always buy the 27G 1/2" needles online and do SubQ anyway if you are comfortable making your own decisions (ignoring the doc which isn't always wise and requires knowlege upfront) on this issue.

I had low D too. My baseline was 25 (30-110 normal). After 10 weeks on 10,000 IUs a day it was up to 37. Not optimal but making a comeback. I was surprised it wasn't a lot higher but such is life. The low numbers are harder to get up where they belong. Wish my LDL numbers were the same.

Hey GotNoBlueMilk...can you describe how you inject sub-Q for us? I am wondering where and how...any special techique you are using. Sounds less "traumatic" than IM. I am also interested from the HCG perspective. Thanks.

**VegasRenegade** · 04-01-2011, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by GotNoBlueMilk

Kochi: I do Test Cyp and inject it SubQ. It is so painless it's not even worth worrying about. I now inject HCG too. I do T 2x/week and HCG 2x/week. Four days a week I inject SubQ. I have to admit that if I had to do this as muscular injections I would be freaked too! But if you don't want to go with the gel try to talk the doc into SubQ. If the doc won't go for it, you can always buy the 27G 1/2" needles online and do SubQ anyway if you are comfortable making your own decisions (ignoring the doc which isn't always wise and requires knowlege upfront) on this issue.

I had low D too. My baseline was 25 (30-110 normal). After 10 weeks on 10,000 IUs a day it was up to 37. Not optimal but making a comeback. I was surprised it wasn't a lot higher but such is life. The low numbers are harder to get up where they belong. Wish my LDL numbers were the same.

No reason for SubQ very little pain from IM in the glutes at least for me. If you keep the E2 in line should not have problem with sides if you are crusing.

**GotNoBlueMilk** · 04-01-2011, 08:27 AM

Vegas must have a numb ass. Another thread that has been going for over a week now was started by a guy asking how long the soreness of an IM injection lasts. That guy obviously was having different results. I can't speak on IM injection soreness since I have never done it.

Anyway, with SubQ you can google it and find lots of info on it. Even YouTube videos. But basically I do the upper thigh region. I pinch some skin up and inject the peak of the fold. this way the needle stays far away from the muscle. The most painful injection is hitting the boundry between the muscle and skin. You want to avoid injecting into that boundry. So pinching up the skin accomplishes this.

The arguement against SubQ is that you are injecting into the skin where fat cells are. The enzyme that converts T to estrogen is in the fat cells. But studies have shown there is no difference in results. The thing with SubQ though is you definately want to break the injection into smaller doses and do more often. When you do SubQ you break your dose into two weekly doses and do two shots a week. You definately don't want to do one SubQ every two weeks, like some foolish doctors prescribe when doing IM.

Here is the bottom line with SubQ injections. If you are having issues with the thought of an injection, having the needle go into the skin versus sinking the thing into muscle is a lot easier to swallow mentally. Plus, the needle for SubQ is a smaller since you don't asperate. So you have a thinner needle, it is shorter, you don't asperate, it goes only into skin and not into muscle. These 4 things make the injection a lot easier to deal with for those who are concerned about the shot issue. If you are'nt concerned about it, the pain is not an issue, then the IM may be better route for you since the studies for Test esters and FDA approval were all based on IM injections.

**VegasRenegade** · 04-01-2011, 08:43 AM

[QUOTE=GotNoBlueMilk;5587707]Vegas must have a numb ass. That could be. I use 22 G 1.5 in needle never notice a thing maybe I should try 18 gageAnyway, with SubQ you can google it and find lots of info on it. Even YouTube videos. But basically I do the upper thigh region. I pinch some skin up and inject the peak of the fold. this way the needle stays far away from the muscle. The most painful injection is hitting the boundry between the muscle and skin. You want to avoid injecting into that boundry. Maybe this is why my SQ belly shoots of mellanatan hurt more that the IM. No I have no muscle three So pinching up the skin accomplishes this. [/QUOTE=GotNoBlueMilk;5587707]

**kochi** · 04-01-2011, 09:08 AM

First off, thanks guys! I really really appreciate the feedback and support.

F/T
I understand what you are saying. I will try to best describe how I got here.
9/16/2010
TSH REFLEX = 6.15 (using a reference range of .5-6.)
Free t4 = 1.37 (using a reference range of .71-1.85)

10/20/2010
TSH REFLEX = 7.72 (using a reference range of .5-6.)
Free t4 = 1.59 (using a reference range of .71-1.85)

This was about a month ago.
Tsh-.01
T3free - 6 (5.27 reference)
T4 - 2.2 (1.8 reference)

Testosterone - 289 (300-950) reference.

I started having heart palpitations and adrenalin rushes through the night. So I went in the next day and they said it wasn't the Levo and sure enough it turns out to be it. The doc said that 50mcg of Levo was not enough to make me that hyper that quick, but then another said it was. For this month, I stopped taking the Levo to retest in six weeks to see a) how I feel, and b) If it levels out on its own.

When I had my injury, It took a doctor 8 months to do blood work And that's after complaining. Initially I was give anti-inflammatory and muscle relaxors and told to do PT. I did pt for total about 4-5 months and not results. My body just would not respond to anything. After a minimal workout, I would hurt like crazy instantly and it would take me about a week to settle down. I basically could not do anything, for example mowing a bit of my lawn would wipe me out. I would be in constant pain. I couldn't sleep, not motivated, and all this while I realized I had not had a boner. I was tired all the time, I would go stratigh home and just sit on the couch, all weekend it was the same. I was extremely paranoid, thought someone was going to kill me. Was afraid to go home. I literally thought I was going mad. I had no drive what so ever to do anything.

SO all this lasted 8 months, till I got the first blood work, where my TSH was off as well as the vitamin D. So they suggested thyroid. Naturally, it being medicine I freaked out so I did research it, went of a thyroid forum talked to folks etc. So I gave the Levo a shot, and the best way I can describe it, is it's the difference between driving at night and driving in the day. It certainly helped. Mentally I felt some what clearer and not as tired all the time and not as paranoid any more. I mean it got to point where i was so unsure of myself, I couldn't even make a turn with the car without worry about if I check things properly and this is coming form a guy that would always forget to close the garage door and it would not bother or scare me one bit.

Compared to where I was I am much better place now. I do everything and am social, I drink, party etc. SO am not a recluse any more. I had even made a mental decision, a while back, just to be on my own and not see any of my friends. I did this cause I was so tired all the time, not wanting to talk to anyone, do anything, just go home and sit on the couch. This whole time I have been trying to get back into some kind of work out exercise routine but my body just can't do it. I do have some of my strength back, but my body just crashes. To give you and example, one weekend I decide to try and play BBall. I do just fine. Next day am sore, but nothing a deep tissue message doesn't take care of. Tuesday and thursday fine. Thursday, little off. Friday, stiffness in back, neck and genrally ick. I wake up saturday, and BOOM. Felt like I ran a marathon, joints hurt, back and neck sore, burning stinging. Mentally just icky.

A good day for me is where I am uncomfortable and that is an achievement. Now I am trying to go from that to feeling good again.

When all this started, all the docs could see was the stress and anxiety so anti-depressants was the way they wanted to go. I refused because I felt like they had not done any tests so show could they tell. I did have stress and anxiety. I mean when your leg spasm and locks up for 8hrs tends to get to you.

I did my best to remove ALL the stress factors in my life. I no longer work crazy hours, I don't take on too many jobs etc. And generally it's go home and just chill.

I have always been extremely athletic so I feel like I am self aware. I have been on my own for a long long time, and had to overcome alot of very difficult situations so I feel like I am mentally tough. I have never had a situation where having "anxiety" causes this much physical pain and anguish.

**kochi** · 04-01-2011, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by grumpee

It was like 291. I had IBS,insomnia, fatique, low sex drive, Could not get below 18- 20% body fat and after a year back in the gym I could not gain anything or go up in my lifts. And that was not me. I grew up being a framer in awesome shape. Used to hit the gym hard in my early 20's. I used to be ripped and had good mass. After getting promoted into a office job then starting up my own construction company I got fat and out of shape over the years. Then after I started working out again I dropped 60+ pounds but I could not gain anything and thats when I went and got tested . When I first went on TRT I was 215 pounds and 18-20% bf. Since TRT and a few blast Iam currently 240 pounds at 14-15% body fat. All my lifts went up , My sex drive is better now than when I was a teenager and I feel like a new person all the way around.

I was afraid to go on TRT but it was either be on TRT or keep living a crappy life

wow, that's pretty much the same level I am at and have the same issues. Did you have any muscle twitches?
Well, I am wondering if I should start this Andro thing already or do the free T and Testosterone in the morning? Should I test for anything else?

**swllce** · 04-01-2011, 05:40 PM

TO OP.I'ts way easyer for the doctor to prescribe an ssri and send you on your way.
Testosterone levels are not part of a normal ''Physical'' it goes largely ignored.Yet testosterone plays such a important part of your Heart function,Nervous system,Physical and Mental wellbeing.
Yes it is normal that Testosterone levels drop as we age.To do nothing about it ,when it affects the quality of life might be a mistake.
I have put far more toxic substances into my body.What could be the harm of restoring my testosterone levels to that of a 20 year old?

**JD250** · 04-01-2011, 06:03 PM

Dude, go get a real thorough blood test and post it up here, soon. I can tell you that when my levels were below 300 I was F***ing miserable and that's not doing justice to how it really felt, depressed beyond belief, angry, emotional, border line delusional and paranoid, my body hurt in so many ways at so many different places that I thought I must have some sort of freakin disease. it was a very hard decision and carrying through with it was very hard for me because of my state of mind, but I'm telling you bro....low T can and very possibly will kill you, eventually. Many studies show this to be true, your average doc don't know squat about low t so don't be afraid to get more than one opinion. My family doc gave me anti-depressants too, I took them for about three days and threw that shit in the trash can and went to a clinic that deals with anti-aging......best damn decision of my life!!! You MUST educate yourself, I know at this point you don't feel like it but take some hope from this....you can and will feel better, normal, maybe even better than you ever have in your life when you get your hormones where they should be and 291 t aint where they need to be.

Please read all the stickies at the top of this forum about TRT, due dilligence is required here to learn this stuff for yourself, believe me buddy, you won't regret taking control of your own health and learning what it all means. Don't be discouraged bro, we ALL understand what you're feeling right now. Now go and do it.

**kochi** · 04-01-2011, 07:39 PM

vickenkalle - here is what gets me. MY GP thinks I absolutely need it, but my internist (how is well recognized round these parts as well as the endo think that 289 is fine. If it was the other way round I would be more inclined to do it. I REALLY like my GP (family doc) he is awesome and he listens. But like I said it just scares me that the other two don't think it's important.

JD250 - thanks for the heartfelt post! I have done all the blood work possible. I don't know why the internist never tested testosterone , but the GP did

He never did the free t, just the total and straight away prescribed the Androgel . I have read that low T has many negative effects long term. All the research I have done, suggests that my level should be 600 ish.
So it's not really a matter of me not believe that low T is bad, it's trying to accept that 289 is in fact LOW where 2 specialists are telling me that it is not. So my main fear is that if my T is normal and I take it, am I creating more problems.

**grumpee** · 04-01-2011, 07:42 PM

Just grow some balls and get some cyp or E. In my opinion do it right or not at all...Its the quality of your life your dealing with man

**kochi** · 04-01-2011, 07:58 PM

What is Cyp/E?

**grumpee** · 04-01-2011, 08:04 PM

Testosterone cypionate and enanthate . In my opinion the gel.cream is a joke. JMHO.

**forrest_and_trees** · 04-01-2011, 08:06 PM

JD250 Speaks the truth about *everything*! I too experienced pretty much *everything* described here and YES... It CAN and WILL kill you if you do nothing. Just two years ago, I WAS ONE FOOT IN THE GRAVE! I *seriously* didn't think I'd make it to my 45th b-day, and I was 40 at the time. I just turned 43 last month and it will be 2 years this fall that I've been on TRT and HRT, and I'm a completely new man. I'm back on the road to regaining my youth and vitality. Unfortuately, it took me nearly 20 years of living with Low T and HypoThy to figure it out, so I have a *lot* of damage to undo. But I'm *well on my way*!

I too was *just* like you, unflappable, always driven and more active than just about anyone I knew. I was fearless, few things could unsettle me. I was always the first in and the last out then BAM! ... I got the life sucked out of me. And it was a LONG and relentless, painful process. You ever see the movie XXX with Vin Diesel? If so, do you recall the speech Samuel L. gave him about animals captured in the wild and how they become lifeless... that was me! I wasn't afraid of pain or death for that matter, but put me in a cage and take away my freedom? All I can say is it was HELL! Because that is what Low T *and* HypoThy did to me. Don't let it happen to you!

As far as your last full post, I'm hearing mixed messages and I'm still a little unclear. #1) OK, that settles it, you have Low T and all the classic symptoms. To which I say, don't walk, RUN to the pharm and start your TRT! It WILL change your life!

And second is your Hypothyroid issue. I'm still a little confused. First you mentioned PT, [pardon me, but I'm not familiar with that acronym]. As for your test results, they certainly point to being HypoThy, so I can see why your docs said you were, but the Levo thing? I'm not familiar with that med. I looked it up and all I found was an opiate based pain killer.

You also stated in your last post that the Levo made you Hyper-Thy, but then said it helped, i.e you went from, "driving at night ...to daytime". I'm a little confused by that.

If you are having probs with your Thyroid med, it could very well be the *brand* that's the problem, as there are several on the market, and some people don't respond well to certain brands.

Personally, I was prescribed Synthroid to begin with. Synthroid, as the name implies, is synthetic, and T4 *only* and its the most widely prescribed thyroid med. But that's only because the mfg bombards the docs with info and incentives to prescribe it. There argument is, it's more "consistent" from batch to batch than other thyroid meds. But 10- 20 years ago, and for nearly 100 years, Armour was the most commonly prescribed thyroid med, and most everyone was happy with it. It's a natural T3 and T4 thyroid replacement however, about 2 years ago, they changed the formula and didn't bother to tell *anyone*. They didn't tell the docs, they didn't tell the Pharms, and they didn't tell the patients. There was suddenly a 2 month dry spell where no one could get it, then when it returned, *most* people began to suffer from bad reactions to the new formula.

Without knowing this, I switched from Synthroid to Armour thinking it would be better for me and I had the same bad reactions as everyone else to the new formula. Then I found out there where generic versions of Armour called Westhroid and Naturthroid which are more like the original Armour formula.

I've been on the Naturthroid since Sept and all I can say is WOW! It has changed my life as much as the Test Cyp.

If you haven't already, I highly recommend checking the site, "Stop the Thyroid Madness". It's *very* informative and has lots of info on synthetic vs natural etc. Just Google it.

It sounds like we're getting a little closer to solving your mystery, but like JD250 said, [and me in my previous post] read as much as you can. I'm sorry but I forgot to mention the stickies at the top of this forum. A MUST READ!

Thanks for providing the additional details, It certainly helps.

Best of Luck!

F/T

P.S. Bravo to you for not accepting that Anti-D sh!t! Too many docs would rather treat the symptom than the cause. To which I say, "F That Shite"! It's *your* life. Take an active role in your own health and well being!

**kochi** · 04-01-2011, 09:15 PM

Thanks Grumpee. I would appreciate some patience, I have been through hell the last year, and am so confused by everything, that I am naturally skeptical about everything, especially doctors. I think I have found a good doctor but am still fearing. I went to one doctor a while back in a plea for help, without any testing I walking out of there with Trazadone, Tramadol, Cymbalta and Diazapam.

because I had "anxiety." No blood work, no physical exam of any kind.

F/T - that is exactly what I my GP said, I would be running to the pharmacy if I was you to get this medicine. The reason for the mixed messages is that my symptoms can all be described by Hypo OR Low t, or as alot of docs want to tell me, Anxiety. When I found out about thyroid, I research the heck out of it for a month before I even started the meds, and even found the site you talk about. My number was between 6-7 and half the docs told me it was not and issue. The Endocronologist said that symptoms only occur after tsh of 10. Anyways I learnt that the reference range was actually changed to be between .5-3 in 2004 I think (by some national endo association.) And that alot of reference ranges were out to date. As well. most people feel good at 1.5 (tsh)

The place I was before the thyroid was much much worse then I am now. SO yeah it did make a difference I think, I was only on it for three months before I became hyper. The doc the prescribed the Testosterone medicine said that 50mcg of Levothyroixene (abbr - LEVO), which is generic Synthroid , was not enough to make my hyper and thought I was better stopping for 6 weeks to see if it levels out on it's own. Sometimes thyroid sputter and somtimes they become hyper before they die out. Not sure if mine is about to die out or the meds helped it recover on its own. My t4 was at an ok level initially, but still showed that the thyroid was struggling to produce enough. So to sum it up, I do believe the Levothyroxine helped, not sure it was all. I have also read that being Hyperactive can cause Low t so it makes me wonder if this is transitional or not. My body converts to t3 just fine by the looks of it, so it seems all I need is the t4. I have heard alot of people complain that the new Armour is just not good anymore and people a clammering for the old formula.

In using the term PT- I mean physical therapy. I went twice a week for months and no response from the body.

I did finish reading the stickies.

I hope we are getting closer to solving the mystery. I have gotten an MRI of my spine and checked with 5 specialists and it all looks clear. I have mild disc degeneration from t2-c1, but nothing causing problems. Have had MRI of brain and it checks out. Tested for arthritis, ms, diabetes etc etc. The issues that came back were.

1.) Vit D which was at 23.
2.) High Uric acid (8, I think the max was 6)
3.) Low t and low Thyroid.

and again, according to most of the "specialists" the numbers are not off enough to cause problems! UGH. The only other thing I can think of as far as causing problems is Sleep Apnea. In everything I have read on it, it can certainly cause the issues as well. I don't remember a time where I have slept a solid, full 8 hours.

Again, guys I really appreciate your time and please be patient with me.

What does everyone think I should do now?

Here is what I understand so far - please correct me if I am wrong.

1.) My Testosterone is definitely low and needs addressing.
2.) I have the androgel - I understand that it's worthless but have also read that it's useful to some, is it worth giving it a try? Doc said I should feel good in couple weeks.
3.) If I should start the TRT - should I first get the free T as well as the Total t? Do I need to test in the morning? Should I get a Digital rectal exam on the prostrate before I start? Do I need to check my estrogen as well? Do I need do these BEFORE I start, or just go ahead.

I would like to also describe how I am feeling right now. About 10am I started feeling some ache in my neck t7 region. Soreness and burning in upper traps. Joints and shoulders start to hurt and feel like I have been stung by a bee. My whole spine feels week and the center of it feels like someone has stuck a knife in there. My right ankle feels like I have just been kicked. My chest muscles are tight and I feel somewhat uncomfortable breathing. My lats are very sensitive to movement, stinting with certain subtle movments. Not hyperventilating or anything, just trying to ignore it. Ice helps and that's about all I do. Today this is the mix of misery I get.

**kochi** · 04-01-2011, 09:32 PM

ps- I am not adverse to the injections if indeed TRT is the best option.

**groundfighter1** · 04-01-2011, 10:07 PM

Have you been tested for R.A. ? or for Fibromyalgia? I'm mostly suspect of the fibromyalgia.
Also, you should get a sleep study done for the sleep apnea. Fixing that changed my dad's life.
My opinion, and it's just my opinion, is to try to fix and or rule out one thing at a time. Ex: get the thyroid smoothed out since you've seen positive results from that already... It often takes many med changes and adjustments to get that one right... So hang in there.... Then move on to the next thing that might be causing you problems, tackle it then move on again.
You already answered your own question about doc's- you said you liked and have a good relationship with your GP so go from there cause that's what's important... You could put 10 different MD's in a room and get 8 different opinions! That's why they call it "practicing" medicine.
And don't fear the TRT or HRT man, but I'm not sure you're quite ready for it yet, maybe soon tho. Try to get some other things fixed or ruled out tho.
And hang in there man, keep working at it man, you'll get there. Like they said, your health is ultimately in your hands... so keep pressing forward.
This is a great source of info so keep using it.

**kochi** · 04-01-2011, 10:12 PM

Thanks

Yea been tested for RA. I doubt Fibro because of the pain pattern and faituge.

I just don't get how an internist and and endo can say it's normal when I am hearing otherwise.

SO lets just say my testosterone is "normal" and I give it a try. Could that be dangerous?

**groundfighter1** · 04-01-2011, 10:29 PM

Fibro has all those symptoms ? Doesn't mean you have it, but should be checked. Go to the MayoClinic's website and search symptoms of fibromyalgia.
And doing TRT shouldn't hurt you if done properly, but it may make it hard to figure things out if you're making several changes to and in your body at once.

Just my .02

**kochi** · 04-01-2011, 10:39 PM

that makes sense!

The only way to test for Fibromyalgia is to rule everything out. This is why they used to call it the Hypochondriacs disease. Also to be diagnosed it has to be on certain amount of pain spots all over the body etc. The main medicine the use for that is something like Cymbalta. But for me something has to be causing the fibro... I mean I NEVER had these pains before I got injured/chiropractor... it could be it stirred something up. I don't know, but essentially I ended up with a whiplash type injury from the workout and then the chiropractor telling me he needed to move c6 an inch and popped my whole neck 4 times consecutively.......

They said mine was more of a myofascial pain sydrome... but then again, I have been told its alot of things.

**JD250** · 04-01-2011, 11:26 PM

I'm tellin you man' your T is low, I was in so much pain at times that I worried alot about what horrible disease this was that was killing me, but mentally I was so foggy that I didn't seek help for a long time.

Do a search and find a clinic that will help you,an anti aging clinic, see if your insurance will reimburse, mine doesn't and I don't care it's worth every penny. remember....most family doctors and a great deal of endocrinologists don't know as much about this stuff as you will if you keep reading and asking questions.

an aa clinic will do ALL the blood work needed, and give you some choices, typically one injection a week with 100mg of test cypionate along with some hcg is a good starting point and depending on the results of the bloodwork maybe an aromatase inhibitor which I believe is overused by clinics but MAY be needed in small doses, some clinics will give as much as 250ml a week to start out but that's because they sell more product ( you gotta keep an eye on everyone)

You're test is low, procede as quickly as you can with finding a clinic or a MALE doctor who deals with this stuff as a majority of his practice, again 100ml a week of test cyp plus a couple small injections of hcg to keep your nuts going on their own a little and in a while you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner.

The reason your doctor says that your test is normal is because in their ignorance they are accepting the fact that mens test levels do drop with age so in a sad way I guess you could say that it IS normal but their is no bad side to having the test level of a healthy 20 year old and you will feel great and live longer, without the brain fog, damn that brain fog, I hated that! Some of the so called reports you've heard about that condemn trt as dangerous are again based on speculation and ignorance it DOES NOT cause cancer, if it did every 20 year old man on the planet would be on their death bed. My prostate is fine, in fact it's better than ever, let the so called experts explain that.

Bottom line is that steroids got a horrible reputation and an undeserved one at that from some ignorant people over the last 2 decades and unfortunately this precious medicine that you and I need to make our bodies and lives normal is in fact the mother of all steroids so it gets a bad rap and most docs know nothing about it and have avoided it like the plague because of it. But when used properly, just like other steroids, it can be of HUGE benefit.

Another thing, I have had back problems for several years and then I fell on the jobsite one day and cruched my lowest three dics followed by 6 years of excrutiating pain and worsening arthritis, long story short....I had lazer surgery and fixed the discs but the arthrits was still unbearable .....I started TRT and I shit you not, I take nothing for arthritis now not even ibuprofin or aspirin....NOTHING

Low T will flat out F*** you up from your asshole to your elbows and everything in between, start searching for someone who can help and get more than one opinion.

You're on the way bro' don't be discouraged or scared.

**forrest_and_trees** · 04-02-2011, 01:57 AM

Once again, JD250 Speaks the truth! Amen brother! I too suffered from what could have been called, "Fybromyalga" shit! What a scam! Once again it's the pharmo industry treating the symptom, not the cause. You'd be amazed at *all* the symptoms and corrections T and Thyroid meds address! Don't trust your Dr., educate yourself so you know the difference and understand where they're coming from and why the do what they do. Truth is, they don't always necessarily have our best interest in mind, there's FAR too much CYA in todays world. It's just the sad reality. We here feel you're pain. Literally! We've been were you are and know what it's like. We wouldn't steer you wrong. Heed the advice of this board and start the healing process. You can thank us later. =) Just take back control of your life and be happy!

We're all pulling for you!

Cheers!

F/T

**kochi** · 04-02-2011, 08:31 AM

"Low T will flat out F*** you up from your asshole to your elbows and everything in between"

HAHA! nice one. I get the message! THANK YOU.
And to be honest, yeah I kinda bough into that rap of steroids and "anti-aging" vs I need medicine. With they thyroid they told me it's what your body makes, and you need more of it. But for some reason, "steroids" feels different.

Thanks F/T for the encouragement! I knew I was not going to do the happy pills because I was fine before hand. Then all of a sudden My anxiety is causing problems.

Also, when I said difference between driving at night and day, is the brain fog... it helped clear quite a bit.

**sirupate** · 04-04-2011, 08:34 AM

kochi...the gel can work and at 5gms./day, it isn't too bad to get on your torso area. If you need to be dosed at a higher level than 5gms./day, the gel becomes a pain to deal with. There is simply too much gel to apply and too little body area that is recommended for application. I think a lot of guys get started on the gel and transition to injecting at some point. I think (the "famous") Dr. Crisler even recommends this approach.

Sounds like you already have the gel on hand...I'd run with that for a few months and see if it works. If not, go injectible. You'll feel much better if you get started.

**zaggahamma** · 04-04-2011, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by sirupate

kochi...the gel can work and at 5gms./day, it isn't too bad to get on your torso area. If you need to be dosed at a higher level than 5gms./day, the gel becomes a pain to deal with. There is simply too much gel to apply and too little body area that is recommended for application. I think a lot of guys get started on the gel and transition to injecting at some point. I think (the "famous") Dr. Crisler even recommends this approach.

Sounds like you already have the gel on hand...I'd run with that for a few months and see if it works. If not, go injectible. You'll feel much better if you get started.

^^^this^^^^^

**kochi** · 04-04-2011, 11:46 AM

THANKS

I actually read that, Crisler. I have been researching the gel and it does seem like there are people that feel good on it.. and apparently it simulates the normal cycle.

I called the endo back and asked if it would hurt to even try it. I mean I have ruled everything else out, and since there is debate, why not just try it for a couple months and see if I get better...

So lets just go with the doc, for arguments sake that my level is "normal," what is the harm of trying that low of a dose.