What's up with all these anti-estrogens?

[Ronnie Rowland]

What makes more sense is including Calcium D-glucarate in one's supplement regime.

On the boards, the norm is to add more drugs to counter-act the side effects of an already overboard drug protocol.

This is quite backward IMO.

-CNS

And for those who haven't a clue what Calcium D-glucarate is: it aids in the removal of toxins and carginogens from your body. Most people do not get enough of this supplement in their diet!

[LATS60]

Just eat your greens lol, oh and apples i think.

[Mammon]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowland
Acne is a sign the testosterone is being accepted by your receptors.

still interested to hear a little more about this..

[LATS60]

Almost forgot.
Calcium D-glucarate is not an essential nutrient, and thus no deficiency state exists.

[Ronnie Rowland]

ive always been cautious re: estrogen - never had any gyno symptoms - may not be prone at all....never felt it cost me much re gains either - then again im just going by good gains made with small amounts of ai use (eraly on its was low dose serm use) ...so i guess i dunno. Ronnie whats your opinion re cyles with tren and test cycles...i always felt it prudent to keep estrogen in check so as not to cause probs with elevated progesterone. The again i also have had great success and synergy with test/tren /winny - not ever knowing for sure but tending to believe based on results and synergy the winny helped re progesterone....

People have a tendency to be overly cautious with anti-es. I've seen quite a few get itchy nipples when they first began cycling but eventually their body adjusted to the hormonal changes and these symptoms dissapeared without ever returning. They never used anti-es and never developed gyno!

Using anti-estrogens with a test/tren combo will reduce the potency of the stack. It's better to use less test (with no anti-es if at all possible) if need be when doing a tren/test combo. If winny is added to the test/tren you could get by with using higher dosages of test.

[Mammon]

when you say anti-e's do you mean AI's,SERM's or both..

[Ronnie Rowland]

What are you talking, AI's or SERMS?



Same here, AI or SERM? They do after all have totally different mechanisms of action.

Also would you not agree that prevention is better than cure/surgery? Don't forget that gyno can rear it's ugly head without the precursor of itchy/sore nips, tanner II gyno for instance will have no symptoms.
You don't have to get those problems you mentioned if you use the correct med at the correct dose for you.

Oh, what mammon said, elaborate please.

If you are not prone to gyno I see no value in taking AI'S or SERMS during a mass cycle. In fact, these drugs can be very harsh on the body.

[Ronnie Rowland]

when you say anti-e's do you mean AI's,SERM's or both..

I was basically referring to drugs like arimidex and letro.

[peachfuzz]

Because an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Of course estrogen is important but you really only need a healthy level. Not the more the better.

Blood pressure.

Less fat gain.

Too much estrogen will kill sex drive just as too little.

Antiestrogens have there use. Are they over used? Probably? Especially dosage wise....

[No One Knows]

Ronnie, what are your thoughts on using prolactin antagonizers like caber bi-weekly when on drugs like deca and tren ?

[LATS60]

I rarely find time to post in this section. I believe some great information is being handed out by some but I do not understand why everyone is jumping on the anti-estrogen banwagon?

Unless you are prone to gyno, preparing for a show or using very high dosages of aromatizing drugs -

1) why waste your money on anti-es?

2) why limit your gains with anti-es?

3) why kill your sex drive with anti-es?

4) why damage your joints with anti-es?

5) why kill your energy levels with anti-es

I do not understand? Will someone please explain!

I was basically referring to drugs like arimidex and letro.

Taken sensibly and taking the correct compound there is no reason for any of the above. They are certainly not a waste of money.
Doesn't lowering estrogen by using a low dose AI while on cycle increase testosterone ????

[Flex-Appeal]

It also increases LH which I believe is pretty important amongst other things it does positive

[Ronnie Rowland]

Ronnie, what are your thoughts on using prolactin antagonizers like caber bi-weekly when on drugs like deca and tren?

I'm all for it!

[Ronnie Rowland]

Taken sensibly and taking the correct compound there is no reason for any of the above. They are certainly not a waste of money.
Doesn't lowering estrogen by using a low dose AI while on cycle increase testosterone????

Anti-es are known for causing joint pain, etc. These drugs were designed for cancer patients! I do not think increased estrogen levels are the problem. Instead, I believe it's the estrogen to test ratio. If estrogen becomes the dominate hormone then yes a low dose AI can help. But, I am not making reference to this scenario. I am talking about a standard cycle using 500-750 mgs of test enanthate per week. Unless someone produces an over abundance of estrogen there would be no reason to use AI'S. I believe AI's can actually lower estrogen to much in many cases. Estrogen increases receptor site sensitivity-hence allowing the test to do it's job. Getting acne can be a sign the receptors are accepting the test if you are prone to that side effect. An increased sex drive would be another. Everyone has various amounts of receptor sites and once they become saturated more test won't make a difference. Therefore, I feel it's better to take less test and stack other drugs. Obviously, as you progress more test could be utilized because the body becomes desensitized to any drug.

I'm not saying anti-es should never be used during a mass cycle but I think many are abusing them by being overly cautious.

[Mammon]

Getting acne can be a sign the receptors are accepting the test

still dont get this at all..

[nails4me2]

would the calcium d-glucarate help prevent gyno??

[Narkissos]

would the calcium d-glucarate help prevent gyno??

Some people are using it (500mg, 3 times per day) for this purpose.

One of my associates swears by it.

Whenever his nipples get sensitive he reaches D-glucarate.

The itchy-nipple feeling gets dealt with quickly.

I haven't seen any logs w/ before and after pics to support such, but the research (and individuals' experience) would suggest that it is effective.

...especially for individuals whose gyno is related to xenoestrogens.

-CNS

[Reed]

Completely agree with the OP. no wonder all these worry wart estro guys are so small

But I did learn something with the D-glucarate, good stuff Keep the info coming!!!

[shwingman]

hello can someone tell me if this is a good combo...im on my first cycle and im taking testosterone cypionate -250mg,testosterone enanthate -250mg and 100mg of bonenone every 4 days....will this work or should i change a few things...ty

[Reed]

hello can someone tell me if this is a good combo...im on my first cycle and im taking testosterone cypionate-250mg,testosterone enanthate -250mg and 100mg of bonenone every 4 days....will this work or should i change a few things...ty

Can you please start your own thread thanks. Its easy look at the top of the forum page and you will see "start new thread" click it

[KeyserSoze1]

Can you please start your own thread thanks. Its easy look at the top of the forum page and you will see "start new thread" click it

GOOD CALL!

[user12345654321]

Acne is a sign the testosterone is being accepted by your receptors. Could it be that the anti-es are buffering this effect?

ur defenity avoiding explaining this.

[peachfuzz]

Human skin is a collection of androgen-responsive tissues, hair follicles, sebaceous glands, sweat glands, epidermis and dermis. As androgens (testosterone being an androgen) bind to the androgen receptors, the sebaceous glands are stimulated and begin to produce more sebum. Sebum is a natural oil that makes the skin soft and waterproof. The oily sebum accumulates in the follicle as it moves up the hair shaft where it mixes with normal skin bacteria (Propionibacterium Acnes) and dead follicular skin cells. The dead cells normally get pushed to the surface where they are expelled. The more sebum is produced the greater the chances of clogged follicles that potentially result in pimples.

[user12345654321]

ok, how does that explain me not getting acne when i run an ai?

[peachfuzz]

no one said it did. it explained how acne is a sign testosterone is being accepted by your receptors.

[murphylee]

What about taking Nolvadex for gyno or bloating? I don't have access to Adex, and it's expensive as hell, but I have nolva. Can I use that?

[Ronnie Rowland]

What about taking Nolvadex for gyno or bloating? I don't have access to Adex, and it's expensive as hell, but I have nolva. Can I use that?

Yes you can use nolvadex . I would only keep the nolvadex on hand (do not use unless absolutely necessary) and deal with the bloating. If you want less bloat take less test and/or cut the carbs.

[MuscleScience]

I think some people need to take them because they become crying emotional bitches, if you want proof just look at some of the recent threads.....LOL

[Narkissos]

Just eat your greens lol, oh and apples i think.

Do you know how many pounds of veggies you'd need to ingest?

[joiningthedarkside]

ronnie u said u believe u should take an ai if ur getting signs of gyno. are u also saying u should take them if u get acne aswell?

[LizzardSecond]

so is this thread saying that with a cycle and AI and novaldex is a waste or even as a Pct. I take clomid and novaldex as my Pct and a smaall dose of hcg during cycle 200iu EOD. My gains were huge my first cycle 33-38lb. (I never weighed myself at the start but doctors records state 168lb, but I was very ill). This cycle has yielded 12lb is 9 weeks. Could hcg hinder gains?

[LizzardSecond]

No hcg first cycle

[jj0824]

when I don't take any my acne goes nuts.

yea i dont even get acne, anywhere. but after i came off my cycle my face pizza'd up. anti e's help this problem??

[Ronnie Rowland]

ronnie u said u believe u should take an ai if ur getting signs of gyno. are u also saying u should take them if u get acne aswell?

I think acne is a sign the test is being accepted well by the receptors so anti-es should not be used!

[Ronnie Rowland]

so is this thread saying that with a cycle and AI and novaldex is a waste or even as a Pct. I take clomid and novaldex as my Pct and a smaall dose of hcg during cycle 200iu EOD. My gains were huge my first cycle 33-38lb. (I never weighed myself at the start but doctors records state 168lb, but I was very ill). This cycle has yielded 12lb is 9 weeks. Could hcg hinder gains?

Small amounts of anties are fine post cycle but here's something some seem to not understand-"when test is no longer being injected, there will be no more aromatization-hence no more test in the system to cause estrogen conversion".

In regards to hcg you should not use it during a cycle. It can be used as a bridge or priming phase but not during a cycle.

[Ronnie Rowland]

I think some people need to take them because they become crying emotional bitches, if you want proof just look at some of the recent threads.....LOL

You have some good one-liners at times...LOL

[LATS60]

Do you know how many pounds of veggies you'd need to ingest?

As no deficiency state exists its pretty irrelevant, but if you want to tell me go ahead.

[Flex-Appeal]

105 lbs?

[OH REALLY]

Ronnie what if you are running hcg 100ius a day on cycle will you need an anti e then?

[legobricks]

Small amounts of anties are fine post cycle but here's something some seem to not understand-"when test is no longer being injected, there will be no more aromatization-hence no more test in the system to cause estrogen conversion".

In regards to hcg you should not use it during a cycle. It can be used as a bridge or priming phase but not during a cycle.

Huh?

First off lets start talking SERMS and AI's. They are both anti-e's. BUT they serve different purposes for PCT.

Secondly, it is true you are not injecting a exongenous form of test but the whole point of PCT is to restore your natural test production via the use of ancilleries. What happens when your natty test spikes? what happens when your natty test has a huge jumpstart and you start producing large amounts again? What does you body do? Well the "rebound effect" normally associates this sudden increase in your natty test with high levels of estrogen being produced via the aromatose enzyme which causes gyno, acne, moody, etc... all the bad sides. Tamoxifen (SERM or Anti-e in your case) will oppose the negative feedback on the hypothalamus which in turn stimulates the release of GnRH to stimulate the pituitory which releases LH, and so on and so forth...creating a large spike in test like that requires the assistance to stop the aromatose enzyme from converting the test to estrogen. Yes better safe than sorry IMO. And no the combo works better than just using nolvadex alone.

And along with your theory of not using AI's while on cycle...i have to agree slightly on this part. People need to trial and error some of the compounds that we have out today in order to find what works best for their body. For me SERMS kick ass and i would never trade them for AI's in term of halting the formation of gynocomastia. AI's even at low doses KILL my joints, my mood, my libido, etc... and this is at LOW dosages. I have gone thru different AI's and they all suck IMO. I LOVE water bloat on cycle which SERMS do not reduce so thats another plus.

Its trial and error.

Find what works for you and roll with it. Also different AAS compounds also require different ancilleries so be a bit more specific in this thread. Do not generalize all anti-e's into one category and please specify that at the beggining of your thread as people were already and still are mistaken about what you are refferening specifically too.

It is true that people do abuse the hell out of AI's and SERMS but like i said, its trial and error of what AAS compound NEEDS the assistance and how your body reacts to AAS in general.
For me Dbol sucks in terms of the negative estrogen sides, test is fine, obviously the 19nor groups are fine, winny, var, eq, etc...all ok as well in terms of dealing with estrogen.

Have the ancilleries on hand, especially if you are a begginer and use them as nessecary....ie itchy puffy nipples, lumps starts to form, etc... and this is what we preach to people becuase it is vital. I have seen in too many cases people ignore these signs and develop gyno.