What's up with all these anti-estrogens?

[Ronnie Rowland]

Ronnie what if you are running hcg 100ius a day on cycle will you need an anti e then?

Not unless you are already using them because you are prone to gyno.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Huh?

First off lets start talking SERMS and AI's. They are both anti-e's. BUT they serve different purposes for PCT.

Secondly, it is true you are not injecting a exongenous form of test but the whole point of PCT is to restore your natural test production via the use of ancilleries. What happens when your natty test spikes? what happens when your natty test has a huge jumpstart and you start producing large amounts again? What does you body do? Well the "rebound effect" normally associates this sudden increase in your natty test with high levels of estrogen being produced via the aromatose enzyme which causes gyno, acne, moody, etc... all the bad sides. Tamoxifen (SERM or Anti-e in your case) will oppose the negative feedback on the hypothalamus which in turn stimulates the release of GnRH to stimulate the pituitory which releases LH, and so on and so forth...creating a large spike in test like that requires the assistance to stop the aromatose enzyme from converting the test to estrogen. Yes better safe than sorry IMO. And no the combo works better than just using nolvadex alone.

And along with your theory of not using AI's while on cycle...i have to agree slightly on this part. People need to trial and error some of the compounds that we have out today in order to find what works best for their body. For me SERMS kick ass and i would never trade them for AI's in term of halting the formation of gynocomastia. AI's even at low doses KILL my joints, my mood, my libido, etc... and this is at LOW dosages. I have gone thru different AI's and they all suck IMO. I LOVE water bloat on cycle which SERMS do not reduce so thats another plus.

Its trial and error.

Find what works for you and roll with it. Also different AAS compounds also require different ancilleries so be a bit more specific in this thread. Do not generalize all anti-e's into one category and please specify that at the beggining of your thread as people were already and still are mistaken about what you are refferening specifically too.

It is true that people do abuse the hell out of AI's and SERMS but like i said, its trial and error of what AAS compound NEEDS the assistance and how your body reacts to AAS in general.
For me Dbol sucks in terms of the negative estrogen sides, test is fine, obviously the 19nor groups are fine, winny, var, eq, etc...all ok as well in terms of dealing with estrogen.

Have the ancilleries on hand, especially if you are a begginer and use them as nessecary....ie itchy puffy nipples, lumps starts to form, etc... and this is what we preach to people becuase it is vital. I have seen in too many cases people ignore these signs and develop gyno.

I think we are pretty much in agreement.

[Dukkit]

i just browsed this thread.

and im on ronnies side

i never use an AI during cycle

and even PCT... i either wont use one or ill use a low dose with my nolva and clomid

i get and keep more gains from cycle and pct this way ive noticed

now ive had some gyno pop up during cycle... ill hit some letro for a week and it goes away. then ill be good the rest of the
cycle

P.S. ive experimented and seen that if i dont run an AI during PCT, my strength keeps going up during pct and after. which id attribute to estrogen rising during PCT and in turn helping with the strength. but not getting too too high cuz i do run Nolva which helps block the estrogen to an extent

[Adreja]

The way i see it anti-es are taken to combat water retention and gyno. Now if there is no signs of gyno then its only for water retention? Now this water retention thing the way i see it you gonna have some either way, so what is the difference between having more or less water during the cycle? Also what is the difference between having more estrogen or less estrogen with gyno not being a problem? Wouldn't the anti-es effect the final outcome? (reduce the muscle build up)? So this leads me to my next question which is.. If its strongly advisable to use anti-es for my cycle which is......
1-12 Test E 750/w
1-12 Tren E 500/w
1-4 D'bol 50/d
8-12 Winny 50/d
4,8,12 HCG ???
14-18 Clomid 100/d???
then what is the advisable anti-es to use. (Nolvadex , Arimidex , Proviron etc)?
Already posted a couple of threads for the cycle and got good feedback (thanks guys) now just to clear the anti-es bit. Currently at the end of my second week and nothing except the muscles is sore or itchy.

Cheers

[tadpoleboyy]

i prefer not to use AI or serm on cycle, but even 250mg test/ week gives me gyno. So i dont have many options.

[Narkissos]

As no deficiency state exists its pretty irrelevant, but if you want to tell me go ahead.

*sighs*

The point of supplementing the abovementioned compound is not to fill a deficiency... It is to facilitate the removals of estrones (as well as carcinogens) etc.

Your above statement is redundant.

It is akin to saying that there is no real purpose to supplementing creatine, as it can be obtained in our diet.

A self-limiting statement... as not many people can tolerate the 2+ lbs of beef per day one would be required to ingest to derive even a modicum of ergogenic benefit from the creatine content of said meat.

Are you following as yet?

-CNS

[Narkissos]

Are you following as yet?

-CNS

In case you are not, I'll reiterate:

The Calcium d-glucarate concentration in fruits/veggies can range from 0.1g/kg (2.2lbs) to 3.5g/kg.

1.5-3g is a pretty effective dose for our purposes.

The 3.5g/kg concentration was found in apples and at least one cruciferous vegetable.

Now tell me who is going to pound 2+ lbs of apples on a daily basis, while pounding the already voluminous protein amounts that this lifestyle requires? Furthermore, even if one is pounding 2+ lbs of mixed vegetables (re: the large discrepancies in concentration per kg), there is still the likelihood that one isn't receiving a significant quantity of the compound.

We supplement the compound because it is feasible and effective to do so.

It is simply logical.

-CNS

[Ronnie Rowland]

*sighs*

The point of supplementing the abovementioned compound is not to fill a deficiency... It is to facilitate the removals of estrones (as well as carcinogens) etc.

Your above statement is redundant.

It is akin to saying that there is no real purpose to supplementing creatine, as it can be obtained in our diet.

A self-limiting statement... as not many people can tolerate the 2+ lbs of beef per day one would be required to ingest to derive even a modicum of ergogenic benefit from the creatine content of said meat.

Are you following as yet?

-CNS

Narkissos, how much of this do you generally take each day to remove estrones and carcinogens? Do you feel any negative side effects?

[sitries]

i went with the view that i would only use an AI or SERM when i needed it on cycle. On my 2nd cycle i had no signs of gyno but a lump formed! nolvadex got rid of this within a week at a high dose. On my 3rd cycle which im currently on now, a lump formed and i jumped on the nolva for a week, but the lump did not reduce it size! so now iv been on letro for 2weeks at 1mg per day. it totally ****ed my sex drive but the lump is slowly getting smaller! my gains have stopped now!! i put this down to the letro.

moral of the story - in future i will be using an AI at a low dose on cycle, or even nolvadex . PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE!!! GYNO IS SCARY SHIT! AND EXPENSIVE TO REMOVE!

[Narkissos]

Narkissos, how much of this do you generally take each day to remove estrones and carcinogens? Do you feel any negative side effects?

As stated here:

1.5-3g is a pretty effective dose for our purposes.

The effective range is 1.5-3gr.

Based on client feedback: @ 1.5 gr, you don't notice much.

There is reduced fluid retention, some mood stabilization etc.

3gr day seems to be the sweet spot however...

So as long term therapy i'd go w/ 1.5gr/day.

On cycle... 3gr/day

-C

[XNathan]

Iam gyno prone even on 250mg long estered testosterone with some DHT derivate I can get gyno (test + DHT derivate in one cycle).

For me is AI tool how to use gear and avoid gyno. I had gyno problems in my two first cycles and I dont like puffy nipples, pain and gland stone formation.

For me is suitable to use 0,25mg anastrozole EOD in my cycles.

As for health risks... bro´s this is really dummy attitude. WE ARE USING AAS!!! You accept risks! you can try to avoid them with knowledge but you cant avoid them completly!

SERMs like tamoxifen is hepatocarcinogenic thats without doubt. To others ist just old group fo chemicals (chemical core). Use them like candy hell no! Use in PCT yes but limited time and limited dose.

AIs are bad for your joints if you run them for to long and in high dose. Use them in every cycle in everyone.. IMO no. But for PCT absolutly and if you are gyno prone... yes in good dose (as low as is possible).

[Voltaire]

good info in this thread for a newb like myself.

As stated here:

Based on client feedback:

-C

Is that statistical data to prove or disprove your claim?
I have many friends in the science community and they will all agree that the only evidence you can use to claim somethings effect has to be conducted under test conditions.

This is a problem with the majority of those kinds of supps. Can't be proven or disprove to have effect other than individual testimony.

[Ronnie Rowland]

good info in this thread for a newb like myself.



Is that statistical data to prove or disprove your claim?
I have many friends in the science community and they will all agree that the only evidence you can use to claim somethings effect has to be conducted under test conditions.

This is a problem with the majority of those kinds of supps. Can't be proven or disprove to have effect other than individual testimony.

I'm wondering the same thing. And what might work for one may not work for another.

[LATS60]

*sighs*

The point of supplementing the abovementioned compound is not to fill a deficiency... It is to facilitate the removals of estrones (as well as carcinogens) etc.

Your above statement is redundant.

It is akin to saying that there is no real purpose to supplementing creatine, as it can be obtained in our diet.

A self-limiting statement... as not many people can tolerate the 2+ lbs of beef per day one would be required to ingest to derive even a modicum of ergogenic benefit from the creatine content of said meat.

Are you following as yet?

-CNS

Ok, i'm following.
Isn't estrone the weakest of the estrogens we produce?
Does a well balanced daily diet not include enough of the phytoestrogens to reduce estrogen and estradiol? Also a well balanced diet contains enough anti oxidants and isothiocyanates to facilitate the removal of carcinogens.
If there is a benefit to taking this supplement over and above what we ingest anyway then i stand corrected.

[Narkissos]

Is that statistical data to prove or disprove your claim?

I was asked for my opinion, experience, and observations... and I gave 'em

They can either be gauged as such, or discarded.

It's a non-issue for me.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

Ok, i'm following.
Isn't estrone the weakest of the estrogens we produce?

No... Estriol actually is.

Anyway....

Numerous compounds (both exogenous and endogenous) are removed from the body via glucuronidation and conjugation.

Estrones account for a small percentage.

fyi: other oestrogens are excreted via the above-mentioned processes as well.

Calcium d-glucarate supports elimination via glucoronidation... as it suppresses beta-glucuronidase.

Beta-glucuronidase encourages the re-absorption of toxins and used hormones.

When it is elevated, there is also an elevation in the number of estrogen receptors... so re-introduced (used) oestrogens have more sites to latch on to.

Does a well balanced daily diet not include enough of the phytoestrogens to reduce estrogen and estradiol?

If a 'well balanced' diet did... would cancer rates not be declining?

an fyi: They are not.

Also a well balanced diet contains enough anti oxidants and isothiocyanates to facilitate the removal of carcinogens.

See above.

xenoestrogens (environmental estrogens) are increasing by the day.

They are present in air and drinking water.

The quality of food isn't increasing to counteract the manifestation of such.

So, logically, how could a 'balanced diet' contain 'enough anti-oxidants'?

..particularly in hard-training athletes?

If there is a benefit to taking this supplement over and above what we ingest anyway then i stand corrected.

Fortunately, that isn't my goal here.

Feel free to internalize or disregard as you see fit.

-CNS

[LATS60]

Thanks.
Your opinion is well respected and i appreciate you taking the time to answer my Q's. Your opinions seem sound enough for me to concur.

[Narkissos]

Thanks.
Your opinion is well respected and i appreciate you taking the time to answer my Q's. Your opinions seem sound enough for me to concur.

np.

-CNS

[jimmyinkedup]

it would seem to me that calcium d glucarate would be effective at BALANCING estrogen levels ....and somewhat aid in disposal. The male body views "excess" estrogen as a level that throws the test/estro ratio out of wack...by simply maintaining the proper test/estro ratio - well that means nothing re sides and gyno when exogenous test is involved. I have a hard time seeing it as effective enough to prevent gyno- just my opinion - but this info is very intriguing none the less. Id also wonder based on its mechanism of action if it also doesn't expedite the removal of excess testosterone as well as estrogen (obviously not our goal). Interesting info though......

[Ronnie Rowland]

it would seem to me that calcium d glucarate would be effective at BALANCING estrogen levels. Id also wonder based on its mechanism of action if it also doesn't expedite the removal of excess testosterone as well as estrogen (obviously not our goal). Interesting info though......

My gut instinct is it should not lower test levels, but I'll let Narkissos answer this very good question since he's the expert on calcium glucarate.

[Narkissos]

Id also wonder based on its mechanism of action if it also doesn't expedite the removal of excess testosterone as well as estrogen (obviously not our goal). Interesting info though......

(Used) Testosterone , progesterone, and estrogen are excreted via similar pathways... however literature does not highlight any increase in testosterone excretion... or any decrease in testosterone receptor sites... or any reduced binding, by testosterone, to its receptor sites.

Furthermore, calcium d-glucarate expert Thomas Slaga (director of AMC Cancer Research Center) has been quoted as having said that there "would have no effects on free testosterone or on testosterone binding to its receptors in muscle." This quote was w/ regard to the effect of Calcium D-glucarate on testosterone.

Let me deviate for a moment.

I've still got Xenoestrogens on my mind at present.

I was researching them a bit more for an article I'm writing at present...and I realized that, unlike natural oestrogens, xenoestrogens (i.e. environmental estrogens) are lipophilic.

Ergo, xenoestrogens are stored in our fat cells... to be released into circulation everytime stored fat is utilized.

Scary shit.

This raises a case for D-glucarate supplementation on the long-term.

-CNS

[FallenWyvern]

^^

Whoa.

[jimmyinkedup]

(Used) Testosterone , progesterone, and estrogen are excreted via similar pathways... however literature does not highlight any increase in testosterone excretion... or any decrease in testosterone receptor sites... or any reduced binding, by testosterone, to its receptor sites.

Furthermore, calcium d-glucarate expert Thomas Slaga (director of AMC Cancer Research Center) has been quoted as having said that there "would have no effects on free testosterone or on testosterone binding to its receptors in muscle." This quote was w/ regard to the effect of Calcium D-glucarate on testosterone.


-CNS

The pathways actually arent similar - they are identical. All three are excreted by binding with glucuronic acid and then excreted in bile. The beta-glucuronidase enzyme inhibits this process ...calcium d glucarate inhibits the activity of the beta-glucuronidase enzyme ...allowing for more efficient removal. I see no reason why the supplement would distinguish between test / estro or progesterone.....actually I can confidently say - it wouldnt. The other method of removal from exogenous hormone introduction would be cyp enzyme - the same cyp enzyme in this case is also responsible for the removal of test estrogen and progesterone.
Point being the statement of free test and receptor binding are all good - but again meaningless as far as overall test levels. Not trying to be argumentative and after some research i can see where this is a worthwhile supp for other reasons ...but imo ...not the best choice for gyno prevention and prob not the best choice for our purposes as im sure its effects are the same on test as well. Now im no cal d gluc expert - but facts are facts - and the supp will help body to balance all hormone levels - but we dont want test being expelled any faster than necessary. Is it possible that you will still make gains etc - of course - but why not a low dose ai - where effects on test will be non existent or beneficial and gyno prevention proven - not speculative with other undesirable hormone lowering effects. JMO....
Oh btw good info on the xenoestrogens Nark and nice heads up on this supplement ...def seems beneficial for general heath purposes if for no other reason - i also read some studies whereby it has a positive effects on the prostate.

[jimmyinkedup]

Another thought - a substance not directly mentioned here - but may fit the bill nicely is proviron - dht based - mild ai properties and a positive effect on free test levels to boot. May provide the estro protection/ antagonization needed to prevent gyno in some cases with other positive effects (re sex drive etc...) ...just a thought...

[Narkissos]

The pathways actually arent similar - they are identical.

Blanket statement on my part... Written in that manner to dissuade erratic associative thought.

I see no reason why the supplement would distinguish between test / estro or progesterone

It isn't a matter of distinguishing.

You're comparing the resulting circulatory amounts of testosterone post-administration to circulatory estrogens (resultant and environmental).

The amounts we supplement are supraphysiological.

Futhermore, the activity of testosterone reductases (etc.) is rate limiting for testosterone metabolism in the liver.

Supraphysiological amounts + rate limiting processes = slower rates of metabolism/excretion... and/or the maintenance of much-larger circulatory amounts.

That being said:

Oh btw good info on the xenoestrogens Nark and nice heads up on this supplement ...def seems beneficial for general heath purposes if for no other reason

np mate.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

To re-iterate:

I was asked for my opinion, experience, and observations... and I gave 'em

They can either be gauged as such, or discarded.

It's a non-issue for me.

-CNS

[VASCULAR VINCE]

In reference to estrogen causing bitch like bodyfat....how much truth to this??? Hell isn't it mostly just water bloating or gyno like ronnie pointed out up front??? a bit confused because no one has made any sound arguments to support the theory that test conversion to estro causes a lot of fat gain....!!!

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ prob because its a non issue when the estrogen in your system is due to exogenous test injection ....i suspect that the high test levels would offset any potential fat gain associated with higher levels of estrogen - the male body just maintains a ratio of tes/estrogen...when you inject test ...both increase (estrogen due to test aromitization)...
bodyfat's association to estrogen is most often referred to in situations not including exogenous administration.... such as in males - naturally occurring low test levels with higher than normal estrogen levels etc...
Oh and it also prob wasnt brought up because no one in the thread even mentioned it at all - because on cycle its a non issue....

[Narkissos]

^^^ prob because its a non issue when the estrogen in your system is due to exogenous test injection ....i suspect that the high test levels would offset any potential fat gain associated with higher levels of estrogen - the male body just maintains a ratio of tes/estrogen...when you inject test ...both increase (estrogen due to test aromitization)...

You're somewhat correct.

Supraphysiological amounts of Testosterone suppresses estrogen receptor proliferation... These levels also suppress ER expression.

My issue however... would be xenoestrogens. (Yes... i mention these compounds yet again )

Xenoestrogens interact with the androgen receptor... altering it. The receptor expresses a reduced or blunted ability to accept androgens.

So a number of males on cycle have huge amounts of testosterone floating around on cycle, of which only a reduced amount can be utilized... but, conversely, they have a shitload of biologically active oestrogens floating around... binding wherever they can.

I realize I've gone on a tangent... but I felt that it's an area that people should be made aware of.

[jeffefrijoles]

umm... I like beer

[Voltaire]

I was asked for my opinion, experience, and observations

-CNS

thankful for them. You know allot on the subject, far more than me!. Im just a universal skeptic on supps these days. I still believe some of them work, but only after seeing some evidence :P.

[Anabolios]

Huh?

First off lets start talking SERMS and AI's. They are both anti-e's. BUT they serve different purposes for PCT.

Secondly, it is true you are not injecting a exongenous form of test but the whole point of PCT is to restore your natural test production via the use of ancilleries. What happens when your natty test spikes? what happens when your natty test has a huge jumpstart and you start producing large amounts again? What does you body do? Well the "rebound effect" normally associates this sudden increase in your natty test with high levels of estrogen being produced via the aromatose enzyme which causes gyno, acne, moody, etc... all the bad sides. Tamoxifen (SERM or Anti-e in your case) will oppose the negative feedback on the hypothalamus which in turn stimulates the release of GnRH to stimulate the pituitory which releases LH, and so on and so forth...creating a large spike in test like that requires the assistance to stop the aromatose enzyme from converting the test to estrogen. Yes better safe than sorry IMO. And no the combo works better than just using nolvadex alone.

And along with your theory of not using AI's while on cycle...i have to agree slightly on this part. People need to trial and error some of the compounds that we have out today in order to find what works best for their body. For me SERMS kick ass and i would never trade them for AI's in term of halting the formation of gynocomastia. AI's even at low doses KILL my joints, my mood, my libido, etc... and this is at LOW dosages. I have gone thru different AI's and they all suck IMO. I LOVE water bloat on cycle which SERMS do not reduce so thats another plus.

Its trial and error.

Find what works for you and roll with it. Also different AAS compounds also require different ancilleries so be a bit more specific in this thread. Do not generalize all anti-e's into one category and please specify that at the beggining of your thread as people were already and still are mistaken about what you are refferening specifically too.

It is true that people do abuse the hell out of AI's and SERMS but like i said, its trial and error of what AAS compound NEEDS the assistance and how your body reacts to AAS in general.
For me Dbol sucks in terms of the negative estrogen sides, test is fine, obviously the 19nor groups are fine, winny, var, eq, etc...all ok as well in terms of dealing with estrogen.

Have the ancilleries on hand, especially if you are a begginer and use them as nessecary....ie itchy puffy nipples, lumps starts to form, etc... and this is what we preach to people becuase it is vital. I have seen in too many cases people ignore these signs and develop gyno.

This post should solve the whole thread. Such a good explanation and I agree with the bloat...ive only run one cycle but i dont mind bloat at all makes me stronger and look bigger. wasnt running it for cutting either so it was perfect

[Nate_Dog]

You're somewhat correct.

Supraphysiological amounts of Testosterone suppresses estrogen receptor proliferation... These levels also suppress ER expression.

My issue however... would be xenoestrogens. (Yes... i mention these compounds yet again )

Xenoestrogens interact with the androgen receptor... altering it. The receptor expresses a reduced or blunted ability to accept androgens.

So a number of males on cycle have huge amounts of testosterone floating around on cycle, of which only a reduced amount can be utilized... but, conversely, they have a shitload of biologically active oestrogens floating around... binding wherever they can.

I realize I've gone on a tangent... but I felt that it's an area that people should be made aware of.

Xenos are a huge issue. Consider that they are in almost everything.. and what synergistic effects do they have.. ? I think people know far to little about this issue..

[Alphatier]

What if somebody already has SOME gyno like me(got it from my teenage years, not from previous cycle)?

Should I run A-dex or Aromasin or not? Also, let's say I'm using Test E, should I start running the AI from the beginning of the cycle, or 4-6 weeks in(when the test kicks in)?

Thanks

[therecanonlybe1]

seems to be the mantra over several boards..almost a form of brainwashing to not even dare think of a cycle until you have pct in place

[Swifto]

I rarely find time to post in this section. I believe some great information is being handed out by some but I do not understand why everyone is jumping on the anti-estrogen banwagon?

Unless you are prone to gyno, preparing for a show or using very high dosages of aromatizing drugs -

1) why waste your money on anti-es?

2) why limit your gains with anti-es?

3) why kill your sex drive with anti-es?

4) why damage your joints with anti-es?

5) why kill your energy levels with anti-es

I do not understand? Will someone please explain!

Elevated blood pressure, mood swings, increase in fat, acne, cancer, prostate enlargement, elevated cholesterol (LDL), loss of sex drive and gyno. Not to mention its negative effects on the leydig cells and hypothalamus during PCT if its still elevated.

Thats why I suggest users control estrogen on cycle with the use of AI's. Arimidex or Aromasin taken at the right doses.

If you get away with not using an AI/SERM on cycle and dont experience any of the above, your lucky IMHO.

[Nate_Dog]

I rarely find time to post in this section. I believe some great information is being handed out by some but I do not understand why everyone is jumping on the anti-estrogen banwagon?

Unless you are prone to gyno, preparing for a show or using very high dosages of aromatizing drugs -

1) why waste your money on anti-es?

2) why limit your gains with anti-es?

3) why kill your sex drive with anti-es?

4) why damage your joints with anti-es?

5) why kill your energy levels with anti-es

I do not understand? Will someone please explain!

Well depend how you are referring ... on a cycle depend on your genetics.. I am very estrogen sensitive and aromatise like a bitch.. things like prop and stuff I am cool with.. dbols ah ah... i once tried the 1 dbol in the am as bridge second day nipples were hurting like a mofo.

As for everyday life... the same applies.. anything I can do to make a health estrogen metabolism and suppress aromatase the better... I think eating lots of shit with DIM in it helps.. when i feel like I am estrogenic and I take Poliquins DIM supps.. I piss out this goldie bronze colour for aout 2 days while the estrogen clears my body.

And for xenoestrogens.. well they are ****ed no matter what way you look at them..