This is what jails should be like!!!!!

[Kärnfysikern]

How can you say that a person who sells crack cocaine (even to over 18yr olds) isn't hurting anyone. Recreational drugs are ADDICTIVE and people who get addicted soon find they have to commit crimes to supply their habit. This is why the drug dealers should be jailed.

Well what about those that sell tobacco? Nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs in existance and it hurts far more people than any rec drug. What about liqour stores?

Only a small amount of users gets addicted anyway so imo legalise it all.
Telling rec drug users that drugs is wrong is just like telling juicers steroids are wrong. No one have the right to tell me, you or anyone what they can or can not put there body through.

Trust me I've lived in some of the worst areas in London (Hackney and Brixton!!!) and I have seen first hand the misery these addictive drugs cause and the violence that drug dealers dish out to keep their "pitch". Perhaps if you'd experienced some of the sh*t I have your views on punishment would be slightly more victim orientated as opposed to criminal orientated.

Well drug addicts and drug dealers that do crime should be punished just like clean people doing those crimes. The laws regarding violent crimes are enough. We need no drug laws. My views are criminal orientated because I am a criminal since I use steroids .

I know plenty of people that have ****ed themself with drugs and my father is a alcoholic so I am very familiar with the downsides of addictive drugs. But poiting the blame on drugdealers is like blaming car dealers for reckless driving. The blame is always on the person using the drug. Nothing else.

I agree there is a discrepancy in the sale of alcohol and tobacco but that's the law of the land and our discussion is about sentencing attitudes/ideologies.

S

Well my point is just that if we have sentances for drug crimes those same sentances should include tobacco or alcohole.

How about a system that is fair and just on the innocent, the victims of crime and the law abiding??? or don't we matter???

The system is fair to innocents and law abiding already. If you follow the law you dont get any punishmet. How can it be any more fair than that??
The laws you are suposed to follow is shit though.
The system is shitty when it comes to victims in the sense that you can get alot of shit for just defending yourself.

I dont se the law system as something that should grant vengance to victims. Vengance is not justice.
If you do a crime that makes you a clear danger to the public. Like a violent crime of any nature you should get locked up in gulag style work camps. You give up your right to be a free man when you try to intrude on the freedom of others.

If you comit a victimless crime or a non agressive crime there is no reason to lock you up since that is only a drain on the economy.

[Schwarz]

Well what about those that sell tobacco? Nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs in existance and it hurts far more people than any rec drug. What about liqour stores?

Only a small amount of users gets addicted anyway so imo legalise it all.
Telling rec drug users that drugs is wrong is just like telling juicers steroids are wrong. No one have the right to tell me, you or anyone what they can or can not put there body through.

I agree with you tobacco is just as bad although I've never heard of a tobacco addict killing someone for a fix although I have heard of drug addicts ding this MANY times. If it were a perfect world I'd get rid of tobacco as well but like I said we are discussing reality here and sentencing policies.

How can you say only a small amount of users get addicted. Try going into the slum areas where you live and tell me it's only a small amount of ppl..go on try it sometime!. Or try going to a rehab center to see how many ppl they get. You are seriously deluding yourself here Johan!

I agree that noone has the right (generally) tell you what to do and what you put in your body but when what you do can potentially harm someone else then I'm sorry but you ain't doing it! And you can't argue that taking rec drugs doesn't harm anyone else because I've seen enough addicts rob and burgle houses in order to get their fixes to know that it ain't a victimless crime.

One of the last cases I worked on was a 54 year old man who was so high on crack actually threw his OWN grandaughter off a balcony 20 storeys high!! He claimed he wasn't an addict as well....shame if the drug dealer who sold him that sh*t was behind bars that girl might be alive today....Rec drugs should be allowed because they don't harm anyone....yer right try telling that to that little girl!!!

Well drug addicts and drug dealers that do crime should be punished just like clean people doing those crimes. The laws regarding violent crimes are enough. We need no drug laws. My views are criminal orientated because I am a criminal since I use steroids.

What you seem to not realise here Johan is that drug dealers indirectly ruin lives. We are all criminals. Who hasn't driven over the speed limit? How many ppl have got drunk on a saturday night and taken a piss somewhere in the street or got into a fight? Everyone has commited a crime (albit minor) sometime in their life. So we should all be sympathetic to the criminal?? Hell why not let them all go then? Fvck arresting anyone. Let's just let chaos reign....

Also there is a big difference between using AAS and rec drugs. How many BB do yu know have robbed or burgled a house to get a shot of Deca ?? NONE EXACTLY!! The laws against AAS are primarily political in nature. Whereas the laws against rec drugs are driven by a need to genuinely protect the individual and the PUBLIC from the addictive effects of rec drugs (crime, physical and emotional illness etc).

I know plenty of people that have ****ed themself with drugs and my father is a alcoholic so I am very familiar with the downsides of addictive drugs. But poiting the blame on drugdealers is like blaming car dealers for reckless driving. The blame is always on the person using the drug. Nothing else.

That's a very bad example. The drug dealers sell these drugs because they KNOW they are addictive and to make the most amount of money. When have you ever seen a drug dealer whose refused to sell someone something because they think he/she has had to much?? Wake up Johan drug dealers are not your friend they are there to make MONEY even if it's at the expense of your life!!

Drug dealers directly cause the misery by selling the stuff they do so should be jailed for it just like a car dealer should be jailed if he sells a faulty car that causes reckless driving....In both examples the dealer (car or drug) has a direct impact on the outcome (crashed car or addicted person who turns to crime).

The system is fair to innocents and law abiding already. If you follow the law you dont get any punishmet. How can it be any more fair than that??
The laws you are suposed to follow is shit though.
The system is shitty when it comes to victims in the sense that you can get alot of shit for just defending yourself.

How can you say the system is fair when then 54 yes old man I spoke of got 2 YEARS in jail! And then was released after 18 months on goo behaviour??? And there are millions of these examples. How is the system fair on the law abiding citizen who wants to feel safe?? The law is an ass and is concerned only with the rights of the criminal.

I dont se the law system as something that should grant vengance to victims. Vengance is not justice.
If you do a crime that makes you a clear danger to the public. Like a violent crime of any nature you should get locked up in gulag style work camps. You give up your right to be a free man when you try to intrude on the freedom of others.

If you comit a victimless crime or a non agressive crime there is no reason to lock you up since that is only a drain on the economy.

Try being a victim once Johan and then tell me if you don't want vengance??? The criminal system is there to protect but also give the victims of crime some piece of mind that they criminal has been punished for his actions.

There are no victimless crimes Johan! Every crime has a victim or potential victim. From the drug dealer to the person who cons a pensioner out of money....there is always a victim!!

S

[NYGIANTS21]

great idea...... But is that why some guys where pink shirts now?......F'n fags.. Pink clothes, guy = no

[Schwarz]

Well we are also discussing what is apropriate sentances Not only reality but some ideal society aswell.




Well yes I can walk into any rehab but there are MILLIONS of potsmokers in the us alone. There isnt millions of addicts on rehab centers. Like I said my father is alcoholic, some of my friends are addicts, my sisters husband used to be a dealer back in his criminal past. I am no stranger to rec drugs or rec drug users. From what I know and have seen only like 10% tops gets addicted. Nicotin is the most addictive drug there is. There are plenty of drugs that isnt addictive at all. But anyway I wont get into that because its not a topic for this board(the specifics of drugs that is).
I think there was some study done on those returning from vietnam. Of those that used drugs only 5% or so ended upp adicited. But I have not seen this study myself. Only heard of it.




Most violent crimes are caused by alcohol. Alcohole causes more agression than many other drugs. Using violence as a argument against drugs is not good unless you want a alcohole ban aswell.

Offcourse there are plenty of lowlifes that rob people to get a fix. But they are not the majority of users. Like I said earlier blame the people, not the drug. If a person cant handle a drug he should not use it. If he does use it anyway and **** up he should be sentanced as harshly as possible.



If he hadnt used crack to begin with he hadnt throw the kid of the balcony(that is realy tragic he deserves a LONG sentance). If GM hadnt sold cars alot less people would have been killed in trafic, if marlboro didnt exist alot less people wouldnt have lungcancer ect ect ect. Put the blame where it belongs. On the person doing the act.




So do alot of other buisnessmen. Oil/mining and energy companies kill ALOT of people because of pollution. They know damn well that they are doing it but they still keep on with it.


I am sympathetic to drug and steroid users because we are all in the same boat. Hunted down by laws that treats us like children.
Arrest those that comit crimes. But dont count smoking a joint as a crime because that doesnt hurt anyone.



Same are the laws against many hallucinogens and "party" drugs. We all hate it when people even mention steroids and drugs in the same sentance. But treating all drugs in the same way is equaly shortsighted.

Its not protecting the individual. Its saying "you people dont have a clue whats good for you so let us in the goverment decide".




I am acctualy not defending the drug dealers that exist. I am just defending the right to sell drugs. There is a huge difference betwen the two.
If you missuse that right you should be punished. Regulate it just like alcohole and tobacco. Make it into a legitimate buisness and the crime syndicates will have lost its major cashcow. It is offcourse a semi legit market already with all the doctors writing amphetamine prescriptions to kids with adhd and all the benzos and ssri drugs for all kinds of disorders both real and imagined. The only difference betwen that and a rec drug users(note, not abuser) is that the one going to the doc has a nice paper that allows him to take the drug.



yes I agree with that analogy if the drug dealer is selling dirty, cut down drugs or shitty drugs like pcp and meth.




I got to agree with you there. Swedens most infamous serial killer is allowed to go out on picnics.
But I realy belive that many criminals can change to the better(if I didnt belive that we might aswell start executing ALL criminals because they will never be a good part of society). Thats why I dont belive in jail punishment unless for crimes that is so severe that the person doing the crime is a real danger to the public.



Sure I would want vengance. If someone mugged me I would want to break every bone in there body. Thats why I should not be the one to decide the punishment because if I where my taste for revenge would cripple the man for life even though that is a punishment far worse than the original crime. Vengance is always out of proportion. Thats why the legal system has to be unbiased. It should however go easy on those that for instance takes personal revenge on a rape. Like if I had a daugher and she got raped and I found that shithead and cut his dick off and crippled him for life. I should not get a big punishment for that.



So who is the victim when I am pushing a needle into my quad and injecting myself with testosterone ?? That is certainly a crime.
Personal freedom is more important than protection against all possible evils.

I think we could go back and forth here for the rest of the year. we obvioulsy have very different views on law and order. While I seem to be orientated towards a much more hard line approach geared towards balancing the legal system in favour of the victim or innocent citizen you seem to favour personal freedoms over the protection of the majority. I consider this a very shelfish attitude but you are entitled to it.

You still seem to have this image of a drug dealer as a nice person but they are not. They sell addictive drugs with 2 purposes:

1. to make money
2. In the hope you will become addicted and buy more

The sad end is that people who do get caught up in this web (and I can assure it is far more than you seem to think) end up hurting the innocent in society. There is no difference between the drug dealer who sells dodgy gear and good gear because both are as harmfull or potentially harmful as each other.

While it's been interesting exchanging views with you I sincerely hope that people like you never get to make sentencing policy. Our world seems to be turning into a more dangerous place every day with the law doing very little to protect the rights of the innocent.

S

[Kärnfysikern]

I think we could go back and forth here for the rest of the year. we obvioulsy have very different views on law and order. While I seem to be orientated towards a much more hard line approach geared towards balancing the legal system in favour of the victim or innocent citizen you seem to favour personal freedoms over the protection of the majority. I consider this a very shelfish attitude but you are entitled to it.

You still seem to have this image of a drug dealer as a nice person but they are not. They sell addictive drugs with 2 purposes:

1. to make money
2. In the hope you will become addicted and buy more

The sad end is that people who do get caught up in this web (and I can assure it is far more than you seem to think) end up hurting the innocent in society. There is no difference between the drug dealer who sells dodgy gear and good gear because both are as harmfull or potentially harmful as each other.

While it's been interesting exchanging views with you I sincerely hope that people like you never get to make sentencing policy. Our world seems to be turning into a more dangerous place every day with the law doing very little to protect the rights of the innocent.

S

Yes I think freedom is more important than security. As you can tell Im a libertarian My whole attitude is "I dont give a **** what you do aslong as you dont give a **** what I do". I dont bother with other peoples actions. It doesnt concern me. So why should my actions concern them?
If I want to inject test, smoke pot or hit mdma on weekends what does it matter to anyone else but me? If we where to make everything potentialy dangerous illegal we would have to ban ALOT of sports.

When the goverment tries to restrict my life when Im not doing anything that hurts anyone I get pissed off.

I dont think drug dealers are good people because most drug dealers are criminals in many other ways. But I dont think de****g drugs is a bad thing that should be illegal.
Most buisnessmen sell a product to make money and in hopes of you needing it so you have to buy more. That is the whole foundation of beeing a salesman. But just like there exist honest store owners there are honest drug dealers that just deal to friends because they all want to have a good time.
Having a ban against rec drugs today is as stupid as having a ban against alcohole. It just allows criminals to make alot of money. Crime syndicates today is just like al capone and that bunch of yesterday. They have found a product many people want but is illegal. Legalise it and ALOT of the problems concerning organised crime will be gone .

It was fun discussing