death

[Mike Dura]

I agree that there is more than meets the eye. So when a person "sees" a miracle or an appirition, what he is failing to see is that motives and preconceptions that influence that perception. Perception and reality are distinct. Not anything is possible - there are limits. No matter how hard I flap my arms I will never fly and Jesus didn't literally walk on water. Even Jesus was subject to the laws of gravity. That's as real as it gets.

whoa! just because you cant or dont see physical evidence doesnt mean it is not possible. anything is possible. religion and studies of religions sometimes proves humans have through out time fabricated stories about god, but not every example,miracle, sighting of a supernatural event can be cited as man making up story.there is more than meets te eye, if all the unexplainable was so easy to understand, we wouldnt have unexplainable events, which we all know still exist. back in my scientific days,in undergrad, i started to believe all answers of life could be explained by a book or backed by science, to say as i got older and wiser, i learned that the exact opposite is true. we are human, we do not know even the begining of the extent of the universe, god,or the unexplained.laws of science and physics that exist today can be gone tomorow. nothing is concrete. i am not a "holy man" purse' but do believe the answers to life ans death are as explainable as a text book !not by a LONG shot!!!

[S.P.G]

[QUOTE=Doc.Sust]

as far as we know it cold be a penguin, it doesnt have to look or squack like a penguin to be the sole of that animal. also, how many penguins have you seen in your everyday life(not counting zoo's or TV) answer is zero, just becasue you never saw a penguin in your natural environment doesnt mean the penguin does not exist. how about animals like the mega mouth shark, or the cealocanth that was thought to be extinct? people never saw the megamout shark until the last 15 years, but we have to assume the creature just didnt appear witin that itme, the creature was around for thousands of years, humans just never saw one, same appleis to the cealocanth/nautilus.humans thought this animal was extinct, but we were wrong again. see my point?just because you or anyone else you know never saw or experienced something does not make it false or impossible,

when I said penguin It was a random animal not just penguins there are plenty of other animals that could be ghosts, like cats, or dogs, but they never get reported its only they old man that only comes out at night ..

mega mouth shark!! but that’s not supernatural it hasn’t died and come back to life, I don’t think it counts, im not trying to disagree with every thing you say dude its just what I think

[Doc.Sust]

Coming from a being (or beings) is right on! Say hello to mom and dad - the beings that brought you into this world! Seriously, how did life begin? The most persuasive explanation to me are the ones provided by science. But then again, what's wrong with just admitting that not everything can be answered or known? What's so terrible about mystery and just humbling yourself to admitting ignorance?

ignorance is bliss in my eyes. as humans we should admit we dont know everything

[Mike Dura]

I was raised a Christian too. I still read the bible though but now I read it on the level of symbol. Similarly, theologions read the bible as poetry while the masses read it as prose. A common motiff is where the man comes down the mountain with gold and when it gets into the hands of the masses it turns to dust. That's how I think of Christians. They read the great book in a very literal minded way but I think the Bible was written by mature minds for mature minds. It really comes down to mentality. And what's your sense of the common mentality?

when someone i know comes back from dead and tells me theres a heaven/hell/gym then maybe ill start believing.
but every holy book (bible,koran etc) was written by man and nobody has ever come back from the dead to tell us all about it...........

fact

and i was raised in a strict irish roman catholic family,church,alter boy the lot.

[Panzerfaust]

In before the lock.. woooohoooo

[Doc.Sust]

[QUOTE=S.P.G]

when I said penguin It was a random animal not just penguins there are plenty of other animals that could be ghosts, like cats, or dogs, but they never get reported its only they old man that only comes out at night ..

mega mouth shark!! but that’s not supernatural it hasn’t died and come back to life, I don’t think it counts, im not trying to disagree with every thing you say dude its just what I think

i understand what you were saying, but my point(mega mouth shark) was just because you dont see something doesnt mean it doesnt exist. that was my point. how does anyone know the soul of any animal in a supernatural form?it could be the soul of a cat as far as i know, we have no clue. the real point i am making is dont dismiss the impossible because you didnt see it yourself.thee are alot of thing that i havent sen in my life, but icant dismiss them as being not true or false

[Mike Dura]

Yeah, keeping an open-mind and an open heart. Isn't that something that's encouraged by all the great religions? Yet somehow, it's often twisted into an ideology or a dogma. I think the intent is to open you up to the mysteries not close you down with absolute "answers." Carl Sagan's work always suggested that science and religion are very compatible.

ignorance is bliss in my eyes. as humans we should admit we dont know everything

[Doc.Sust]

ok johan, how about the theory that the earth was flat? or the sun revolved around the earth?top scientists of these days believed this to be scientifcaly sound, were they wrong???

johan, where did you go? what do you have to say about this?

[Doc.Sust]

Yeah, keeping an open-mind and an open heart. Isn't that something that's encouraged by all the great religions? Yet somehow, it's often twisted into an ideology or a dogma. I think the intent is to open you up to the mysteries not close you down with absolute "answers." Carl Sagan's work always suggested that science and religion are very compatible.

carl sagan rocked!"billions and billions of stars...."

[S.P.G]

[QUOTE=Doc.Sust]

i understand what you were saying, but my point(mega mouth shark) was just because you dont see something doesnt mean it doesnt exist. that was my point. how does anyone know the soul of any animal in a supernatural form?it could be the soul of a cat as far as i know, we have no clue. the real point i am making is dont dismiss the impossible because you didnt see it yourself.thee are alot of thing that i havent sen in my life, but icant dismiss them as being not true or false

yes defiantly, I hear ya, but damm its been a long time now.. surely by now someone would of seen something a bit clearer that a dot on a photo, after all look how many ppl are in the world, that makes for a lot of ghosts yet still nothing conclusive...hmmm

[Mike Dura]

I can picture him saying that with his Kermit the frog voice. That guy was great. Dragons of Eden was a good read. I loved the "cosmos" series growing up.

carl sagan rocked!"billions and billions of stars...."

[Doc.Sust]

I was raised a Christian too. I still read the bible though but now I read it on the level of symbol. Similarly, theologions read the bible as poetry while the masses read it as prose. A common motiff is where the man comes down the mountain with gold and when it gets into the hands of the masses it turns to dust. That's how I think of Christians. They read the great book in a very literal minded way but I think the Bible was written by mature minds for mature minds. It really comes down to mentality. And what's your sense of the common mentality?

i here u. i m in the same boat and raised the same way. i was forced into catholic school when i was a kid, and argued with priests and nuns all the time as a child. a book like the bible has been passed down through so many other people there has to be flaws ,exagerations and tall tales. but on the other hand there has to be some truths to the stories(well at least in the new testmant) as well. you have to judge yourself where the line is drawn. i dont take the book as a literal hand guide of life, others do the exact opposite, i was at a powerlifting meet this wknd, a guy squated 1110 lbs, first words after he got the lift were "praise jesus" he later told me that christ gave him the power at that exact moment to do the lift. do i believe this ,no! but did i tell him this, nope! i said back to him "praise jesus"if this is what he wants to beleive, that is fine with me, i wont rain on his parade. we all should repect each others opinons

[ronan the barbarian]

I was raised a Christian too. I still read the bible though but now I read it on the level of symbol. Similarly, theologions read the bible as poetry while the masses read it as prose. A common motiff is where the man comes down the mountain with gold and when it gets into the hands of the masses it turns to dust. That's how I think of Christians. They read the great book in a very literal minded way but I think the Bible was written by mature minds for mature minds. It really comes down to mentality. And what's your sense of the common mentality?

well just incase i come accross ignorant what i was reffering is man wrote those books on a guide to life and how to live it in a decent manner.it does contain anecdotes and advice to help you through life but thats not the part i have a problem with.

but it does,if you read the bible regular you will know,refer to heaven/hell repeatedly throughout.

my question was how do they know what its like and who goes there,since nobody has ever come back and written a new bible about it.

[Doc.Sust]

[QUOTE=S.P.G]

yes defiantly, I hear ya, but damm its been a long time now.. surely by now someone would of seen something a bit clearer that a dot on a photo, after all look how many ppl are in the world, that makes for a lot of ghosts yet still nothing conclusive...hmmm

long time or not, sometimes it takes 100s or thousands of years to prove these things. no one ever saw a live giant squid until recently, they finaly got one on video, these things have been reported since the days of the vikings with no proof.look how many years it took to see this.

[Doc.Sust]

I can picture him saying that with his Kermit the frog voice. That guy was great. Dragons of Eden was a good read. I loved the "cosmos" series growing up.

never read any of his books, i may have to pick one up. he did however sound like kermit!LOL

[Mike Dura]

My personality is a reaction to christian up-bringing. It brought out the maverick in me. Nevertheless, I would never try to talk someone into thinking like I do. We all need some form of escape and illusion because reality is tough.

i here u. i m in the same boat and raised the same way. i was forced into catholic school when i was a kid, and argued with priests and nuns all the time as a child. a book like the bible has been passed down through so many other people there has to be flaws ,exagerations and tall tales. but on the other hand there has to be some truths to the stories(well at least in the new testmant) as well. you have to judge yourself where the line is drawn. i dont take the book as a literal hand guide of life, others do the exact opposite, i was at a powerlifting meet this wknd, a guy squated 1110 lbs, first words after he got the lift were "praise jesus" he later told me that christ gave him the power at that exact moment to do the lift. do i believe this ,no! but did i tell him this, nope! i said back to him "praise jesus"if this is what he wants to beleive, that is fine with me, i wont rain on his parade. we all should repect each others opinons

[Doc.Sust]

well just incase i come accross ignorant what i was reffering is man wrote those books on a guide to life and how to live it in a decent manner.it does contain anecdotes and advice to help you through life but thats not the part i have a problem with.

but it does,if you read the bible regular you will know,refer to heaven/hell repeatedly throughout.

my question was how do they know what its like and who goes there,since nobody has ever come back and written a new bible about it.

another example of the flaws of the book, but try arguing this point with a religious fanatic, i guarantee you dont win the argument. they have a reason and answer for every question. the believe the bible word for word PERIOD!

[S.P.G]

[QUOTE=Doc.Sust]

long time or not, sometimes it takes 100s or thousands of years to prove these things. no one ever saw a live giant squid until recently, they finaly got one on video, these things have been reported since the days of the vikings with no proof.look how many years it took to see this.

good point.........

Although again this is not supernatural or a supernatural phenomenon,

[ronan the barbarian]

another example of the flaws of the book, but try arguing this point with a religious fanatic, i guarantee you dont win the argument. they have a reason and answer for every question. the believe the bible word for word PERIOD!

so very very true.
religion isnt perfect thats why we have fanatics saying they want peace but go blowing thenselves and others up.

religion is behind practically every war in history and im afraid that too is

fact

so people will have to forgive me if i dont beleive the same as the brainwashed masses

[Doc.Sust]

[QUOTE=S.P.G]

good point.........

Although again this is not supernatural or a supernatural phenomenon,

urghhh! SPG, i am going to kill you!lol! i dont have a supernatural equivalent, i am putting it in terms of the already proven. if it has been proven, than it isnt supernatural anymore. it is mainstream. at one point, the giant squid was a tall tale,myth AKA supernatural, now it is a living phenomeonon(sp) that has been proven. one day ghosts may be explained and categorized etc etc , but as for today, they remain unexplained to many, or just plain myth to many others on the opposite side of the spectrum

[RuhlFreak55]

I will never die

my thoughts exactly.....but if i did i'd go to valhalla's great hall with all the other warriors

[STYLE74]

I really don't know and i'm defiantely not ready to find out either.

[spywizard]

Why are we here?? what's the point?? we eat, we die, we give birth...


what's the point..

[juicedOUTbrain]

So you believe that from chaos comes order? not the other way around...

Things get better with age??

Of course they can...Given enough time and circumstances order can come from chaos...gravity, magnetism, the properties of different elements can create complex structures over time. Watson proved it by creating complex organic molecules in a labrotory...

That being said most mainstream scientists dont rule out the existance of "god", but they do not speculate what "god" is...Einstein, Hawkins, both call whatever force created the physical universe and the laws within "god"...Thats how i feel about the subject, but to deny hard science is illogical, IMO...

As for our purpose? Every bit of life we can view objectively serves some purpose in the bigger eco-system that it is a part of, why would we be any different? But just like a fish in the ocean, an ant in an antfarm, etc most of these creatures cant objectively see their purpose...Will we ever find out ours? I doubt it...

[novastepp]

Animals dont have souls, humans do, thats what i believe.

if you would agree that "heaven" is a perfect place, then why can't my cat be there? if i want it there, it would be right?

[novastepp]

religion isnt perfect thats why we have fanatics saying they want peace but go blowing thenselves and others up.

actually those who engage in that behavior believe dying for their religion is the utmost grace, and are absolved from sin by doing so.

[mavsluva]

There are billions of people throughout the world and each individual has his/her own beliefs of how we came about on this planet. I think it's very fair that we allow each other to carry out his/her own beliefs. It's your own personal choice as to whether or not that you believe in God. You can also attempt to convince any and every one of your beliefs if you wish to do so. However....

When my life on this side of the graves comes to a close, I will not have to convince my creator of what I believe. No. I have already done so in the way that I've lived my life. He knows that I believe in Jesus and that I've lived my life inline of the reason as to why I was created.

I will not attempt to convince any of you as to why I believe in God the way that I do. It's not my job to prove anything to anyone. It's my job to act and speak according to the Word of my leader and if I allow myself to do that, then I'll need no alibi when the time comes. God will not ask me to prepare a speech in order to be accepted into heaven. He'll also not weigh my good deeds against my bad deeds. He already knows the ingredients in which my heart has been built upon and I can make Him happy by displaying those in everything that I do. Just as he did for us.

I do know that I will one day leave my body, which is merely a seed of which I was planted in for my stay here on Earth. My body does not establish who I am. It's the spirit that resides within my body that will remain for eternity. So I'm always preparing my spirit in ways that will best prepare it for the most rewarding experience in the eternal heavens.

[T3/T4 GSR]

I do know that I will one day leave my body, which is merely a seed of which I was planted in for my stay here on Earth. My body does not establish who I am. It's the spirit that resides within my body that will remain for eternity. So I'm always preparing my spirit in ways that will best prepare it for the most rewarding experience in the eternal heavens.

Not only is your soul looking pretty good but you also managed to build a pretty good seed to hold the soul in lol. Looking good in life and seems like you will look good in death too.

[JDMSilviaSpecR]

This thread is a little depressing

[ChiTownTommy]

well i guess well find out the truth someday

[Terinox]

Well heaven/hell should be under one category, but I personally thing it's some "other" weird crazy shit. Either nothing happens, because the possibilty of "other" stuff existing is just unfathomable, or there is some kind of "realm" or level of "otherness" we achieve, or experience...or maybe we go to the Island in the tv show LOST, and become an "other."

[Kale]

As an Agnostic, none of those options apply. I'll believe it when I see it

[juicy_brucy]

When we die, we die... there is no more... and if there is... cool. But we just don't know.. All i know is that when I see a dead person, I'm like " damn, hes dead". I hope there is an after life, but it seems far fetched.

[Kale]

When we die, we die... there is no more... and if there is... cool. But we just don't know.. All i know is that when I see a dead person, I'm like " damn, hes dead". I hope there is an after life, but it seems far fetched.

My thoughts exactly. My attitude is show me the proof. Anything else is delusional.

[Kärnfysikern]

ok johan, how about the theory that the earth was flat? or the sun revolved around the earth?top scientists of these days believed this to be scientifcaly sound, were they wrong???

But those ideas could not pass scientific tests even back then.... They where never scientific theories, not in the sense we use the word today.

People realised the earth isnt flat and that the earth revolves around the sun because the flat eart and earth in the center ideas could not be supported by observation. They realised that if it was true the other plants and the sun had to have very wierd orbits. Finaly someone had the guts to point it out and say that assuimg the sun is in the middle gives a much simpler solution.

IMO rigorus science realy started with Newton and since newton there hasnt been one succesfull scientific(atleast not in physics) theory that has been canned. Newton mechanics and maxwell electrodynamics still stand as two of the finest theories ever made.

Even if scientists belived in flat earth it doesnt mean much. Newton himself was a alchemist first and foremost. But there was never any experimental proof for alchemy so it was never a scientific theory.

Let me expand on what I said about newton and einstein.
For a while everyone belived that newton mechanics and maxwell electrodynamics was the answere to everything. There where some small problems where the theories broke down though. Einstein offcourse figured out how to fix the problems and he fixed them by creating theory of relativity. But theory of relativity doesnt mean newton was wrong. It just means that newtons theory doesn not work when dealing with very fast relative motion. But no one uses theory of relativity when building a bridge or house, newton works just as good today for that purpose as it did a couple of hundrad years ago.


Another example of today is quantum mechanics. QM is the most tested theory ever created. It has passed so many test that its ridicilous, but it has offcourse evolved. The schrödinger equation works for most thing, but then it breaks down and dirac had to invent his dirac equation, but even that breaksdown and we have to use quantum field theory ect. But whenever a addition is found it doesnt mean the old parts are bad. Just incomplete.
But if any of these theories where wrong it would have a real noticable real world effect. Our computers would not work since semiconductor theory is based completely on quantum mechanics. The sun would turn of since fusion is a quantum theory.

So what can concivably happen that would show quantum mechanics wrong? If we find out some new stuff tomorrow it cant mean our computers just stop working? The theories prove themself everytime you turn on the computer or everytime you look up to the sun that is a absolute truth that can never change. We know that the quantum theories are not complete, but except for a few very wierd circumstances(graviational singularities, first picosecond of big bang ect)they are accurate to as high degree as we can messure.

rant off

[Kärnfysikern]

So you believe that from chaos comes order? not the other way around...

Things get better with age??

Order can come from chaos aslong as it creates more chaos in a different place.

The earth can develop complexity since we recieve constant energy from the sun. The entropy of the sun increase madly while the entropy of some systems of earth decrease. So its all balanced out in the end.

But also we have to be very clear with what is chaos. Usualy people say entropy increase=increase is disorder/chaos and since entropy always has to increase it mean everything will get disordered.

But a drop of water freezing and creating the most complex and pretty snowcrystalls is a example of a system where entropy increase even though a complex structure is formed. This is possible because the heat radiation emitted from the crystal while it forms has such a high entropy that it balance out the creation of a ordered crystal.

The entropy of the universe today is higher than it was during the big bang. But today we have complex structures like stars, galaxies, galaxy clusters, even life. During the big bang it was just a chaotic soup of elementary particles.

[Kärnfysikern]

johan, where did you go? what do you have to say about this?

Sleep and sex lured me away from the board

[ronan the barbarian]

actually those who engage in that behavior believe dying for their religion is the utmost grace, and are absolved from sin by doing so.

but this is my point,i have a muslim friend and she says at no point in the koran does it say killing people of other beliefs will get you into heaven,its only one persons interpritation of the book.
and every religion on the planet says killing another person is a mortal sin and you will go to hell.

so if that isnt a contradiction of terms about heaven and hell i dont know what is.

so even holy books dont know where were going.lol

[ronan the barbarian]

My thoughts exactly. My attitude is show me the proof. Anything else is delusional.

exactly what ive been trying to say

[K.Biz]

In before the lock.

this thread is definetly going to get out of hand


My heaven is chicks everywhere, 10's that walk around naked and bring me fruit, chicken steak and free protien haha. and a brand new gym to workout in everyday. and brand new sheets to sleep on everynight. Now thats f*ckin heaven