ANy one a CHristian post here

[Tock]

wow Tock long post

Take it one word at a time . . . you'll do just fine . . .

[boots555]

The Bible gives several different accounts of the Resurrection story. If you disagree, now is the time to make a few bucks from your theological scholarship:

http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=stone

An Easter Challenge For Christians

I HAVE AN EASTER challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born.
Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." (I Corinthians 15:14-15)

The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened.

Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture--it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all of the facts. Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough?
I have tried this challenge myself. I failed. An Assembly of God minister whom I was debating a couple of years ago on a Florida radio show loudly proclaimed over the air that he would send me the narrative in a few days. I am still waiting. After my debate at the University of Wisconsin, "Jesus of Nazareth: Messiah or Myth," a Lutheran graduate student told me he accepted the challenge and would be contacting me in about a week. I have never heard from him. Both of these people, and others, agreed that the request was reasonable and crucial. Maybe they are slow readers.
Many bible stories are given only once or twice, and are therefore hard to confirm. The author of Matthew, for example, was the only one to mention that at the crucifixion dead people emerged from the graves of Jerusalem, walking around showing themselves to everyone--an amazing event that could hardly escape the notice of the other Gospel writers, or any other historians of the period. But though the silence of others might weaken the likelihood of a story, it does not disprove it. Disconfirmation comes with contradictions.

Thomas Paine tackled this matter two hundred years ago in The Age of Reason, stumbling across dozens of New Testament discrepancies:

"I lay it down as a position which cannot be controverted," he wrote, "first, that the agreement of all the parts of a story does not prove that story to be true, because the parts may agree and the whole may be false; secondly, that the disagreement of the parts of a story proves the whole cannot be true."

Since Easter is told by five different writers, it gives one of the best chances to confirm or disconfirm the account. Christians should welcome the opportunity.



One of the first problems I found is in Matthew 28:2, after two women arrived at the tomb: "And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it." (Let's ignore the fact that no other writer mentioned this "great earthquake.") This story says that the stone was rolled away after the women arrived, in their presence.

Yet Mark's Gospel says it happened before the women arrived: "And they said among themselves, Who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great."

Luke writes: "And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre." John agrees. No earthquake, no rolling stone. It is a three-to-one vote: Matthew loses. (Or else the other three are wrong.) The event cannot have happened both before and after they arrived.

Some bible defenders assert that Matthew 28:2 was intended to be understood in the past perfect, showing what had happened before the women arrived. But the entire passage is in the aorist (past) tense, and it reads, in context, like a simple chronological account. Matthew 28:2 begins, "And, behold," not "For, behold." If this verse can be so easily shuffled around, then what is to keep us from putting the flood before the ark, or the crucifixion before the nativity?

Another glaring problem is the fact that in Matthew the first post-resurrection appearance of Jesus to the disciples happened on a mountain in Galilee (not in Jerusalem, as most Christians believe), as predicted by the angel sitting on the newly moved rock: "And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him." This must have been of supreme importance, since this was the message of God via the angel(s) at the tomb. Jesus had even predicted this himself sixty hours earlier, during the Last Supper (Matthew 26:32).

After receiving this angelic message, "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." (Matthew 28:16-17) Reading this at face value, and in context, it is clear that Matthew intends this to have been the first appearance. Otherwise, if Jesus had been seen before this time, why did some doubt?

Mark agrees with Matthew's account of the angel's Galilee message, but gives a different story about the first appearance. Luke and John give different angel messages and then radically contradict Matthew. Luke shows the first appearance on the road to Emmaus and then in a room in Jerusalem. John says it happened later than evening in a room, minus Thomas. These angel messages, locations, and travels during the day are impossible to reconcile.

Believers sometimes use the analogy of the five blind men examining an elephant, all coming away with a different definition: tree trunk (leg), rope (tail), hose (trunk), wall (side), and fabric (ear). People who use this argument forget that each of the blind men was wrong: an elephant is not a rope or a tree. You can put the five parts together to arrive at a noncontradictory aggregate of the entire animal. This hasn't been done with the resurrection.

Another analogy sometimes used by apologists is comparing the resurrection contradictions to differing accounts given by witnesses of an auto accident. If one witness said the vehicle was green and the other said it was blue, that could be accounted for by different angles, lighting, perception, or definitions of words. The important thing, they claim, is that they do agree on the basic story--there was an accident, there was a resurrection.

I am not a fundamentalist inerrantist. I'm not demanding that the evangelists must have been expert, infallible witnesses. (None of them claims to have been at the tomb itself, anyway.) But what if one person said the auto accident happened in Chicago and the other said it happened in Milwaukee? At least one of these witnesses has serious problems with the truth.

Luke says the post-resurrection appearance happened in Jerusalem, but Matthew says it happened in Galilee, sixty to one hundred miles away! Could they all have traveled 150 miles that day, by foot, trudging up to Galilee for the first appearance, then back to Jerusalem for the evening meal? There is no mention of any horses, but twelve well-conditioned thoroughbreds racing at breakneck speed, as the crow flies, would need about five hours for the trip, without a rest. And during this madcap scenario, could Jesus have found time for a leisurely stroll to Emmaus, accepting, "toward evening," an invitation to dinner? Something is very wrong here.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Of course, none of these contradictions prove that the resurrection did not happen, but they do throw considerable doubt on the reliability of the supposed witnesses. Some of them were wrong. Maybe they were all wrong.
This challenge could be harder. I could ask why reports of supernatural beings, vanishing and materializing out of thin air, long-dead corpses coming back to life, and people levitating should be given serious consideration at all. Thomas Paine was one of the first to point out that outrageous claims require outrageous proof.

Protestants and Catholics seem to have no trouble applying healthy skepticism to the miracles of Islam, or to the "historical" visit between Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni. Why should Christians treat their own outrageous claims any differently? Why should someone who was not there be any more eager to believe than doubting Thomas, who lived during that time, or the other disciples who said that the women's news from the tomb "seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not" (Luke 24:11)?

Paine also points out that everything in the bible is hearsay. For example, the message at the tomb (if it happened at all) took this path, at minimum, before it got to our eyes: God, angel(s), Mary, disciples, Gospel writers, copyists, translators. (The Gospels are all anonymous and we have no original versions.)

But first things first: Christians, either tell me exactly what happened on Easter Sunday, or let's leave the Jesus myth buried next to Eastre (Ishtar, Astarte), the pagan Goddess of Spring after whom your holiday was named.

Here are some of the discrepancies among the resurrection accounts:
What time did the women visit the tomb?

• Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
• Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
• Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
• John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)

Who were the women?

• Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
• Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
• Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
• John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

What was their purpose?

• Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
• Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
• Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
• John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)

Was the tomb open when they arrived?

• Matthew: No (28:2)
• Mark: Yes (16:4)
• Luke: Yes (24:2)
• John: Yes (20:1)

Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

• Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
• Mark: One young man (16:5)
• Luke: Two men (24:4)
• John: Two angels (20:12)

Where were these messengers situated?

• Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
• Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
• Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
• John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

What did the messenger(s) say?

• Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
• Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
• Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
• John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)

Did the women tell what happened?

• Matthew: Yes (28:8)
• Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
• Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
• John: Yes (20:18)

When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?

• Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
• Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
• Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
• John: No (20:2)

When did Mary first see Jesus?

• Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
• Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
• John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)

Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?

• Matthew: Yes (28:9)
• John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)

After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?

• Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)
• Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)
• Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)
• John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)
• Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)

Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?

• Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
• Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)
• Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
• John: In a room, at evening (20:19)

Did the disciples believe the two men?

• Mark: No (16:13)
• Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)

What happened at the appearance?

• Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)
• Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)
• Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
• John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)

Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?

• Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday
• Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
• John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
• Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)

Where did the ascension take place?

• Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
• Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
• Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
• John: No ascension
• Paul: No ascension
• Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

RED HERRINGS.

[Tock]

RED HERRINGS.

Why?

Either the Bible is a reliable source of information, or it isn't. If it gives more than one account of the same story, then how reliable can it be?

[boots555]

Most of them can be thrown out. Many of them are the same questions that have been debated down through the century. There is nothing new under the sun.

[boots555]

Check out Norm Geislers book When Critics Ask

[boots555]

How is SF tock

[Second2None]

r we talking Christians or those fu-kin reborns

i havent read every post but has anyone said that hes coming yet??? lol

[boots555]

r we talking Christians or those fu-kin reborns

i havent read every post but has anyone said that hes coming yet??? lol

Reborn

[Tock]

Most of them can be thrown out. Many of them are the same questions that have been debated down through the century. There is nothing new under the sun.

Which ones can't be thrown out?

[Tock]

Check out Norm Geislers book When Critics Ask

Why? Can he tell me which one can't be thrown out?

[boots555]

Why?

Either the Bible is a reliable source of information, or it isn't. If it gives more than one account of the same story, then how reliable can it be?

You have diff people telling the same story. One person puts more emphasis on one point than the other. If all the accounts of what happend were the same they would have been accused of cohersion (spelled wrong)

[Tock]

How is SF tock

Wonderful. Having lots of fun at Fisherman's Wharf showing Christians the difference between a Red Herring and a solid argument.

[boots555]

Why? Can he tell me which one can't be thrown out?

Yeah just go to the book store and look them up.

I dont want to answere all those. Just give me one.

[boots555]

why dont we start with one

[Second2None]

You have diff people telling the same story. One person puts more emphasis on one point than the other. If all the accounts of what happend were the same they would have been accused of cohersion (spelled wrong)

you guys are all nuts, my old best friend went down that path, i swear i think he thinks god is his neighbor, what a loser

[boots555]

Is that why He your old best freind.

I dont mind being a loser. What if you are wrong. Wouldnt that make you the loser.

[Tock]

You have diff people telling the same story. One person puts more emphasis on one point than the other. If all the accounts of what happend were the same they would have been accused of cohersion (spelled wrong)

If all the accounts had been similar, that would have been fine.

But when you get accounts that say:
-------------------------------------------------------------

Was the tomb open when they arrived?

• Matthew: No (28:2)
• Mark: Yes (16:4)
• Luke: Yes (24:2)
• John: Yes (20:1)

Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

• Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
• Mark: One young man (16:5)
• Luke: Two men (24:4)
• John: Two angels (20:12)

---------------------------------------------------------

. . . well, that tells me that someone doesn't know what they're talking about.

Seems to me that if Christians want me to give up my current way of life, they need to come up with a more reliable story than this . . .

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Tock
Why? Can he tell me which one can't be thrown out?

Yeah just go to the book store and look them up.

I dont want to answere all those. Just give me one.

So, in other words, you don't know.

[Second2None]

Is that why He your old best freind.

I dont mind being a loser. What if you are wrong. Wouldnt that make you the loser.

I was taught "lead by example" not by talking shit
hes the biggest piece of shit now, doesnt pay for his kids, he doesnt even go see his kids, but god is still his neighbor and when he comes hes going to walk with the choosen ones, what a crock of shit, if hes walking with the choosen ones im not, imo if you hold that bible or go to church more than once a week, you arnt workin enough, and if you put your self before your kids then go to hell imo

[boots555]

If all the accounts had been similar, that would have been fine.

But when you get accounts that say:
-------------------------------------------------------------

Was the tomb open when they arrived?

• Matthew: No (28:2)
• Mark: Yes (16:4)
• Luke: Yes (24:2)
• John: Yes (20:1)

Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

• Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
• Mark: One young man (16:5)
• Luke: Two men (24:4)
• John: Two angels (20:12)

---------------------------------------------------------

. . . well, that tells me that someone doesn't know what they're talking about.

Seems to me that if Christians want me to give up my current way of life, they need to come up with a more reliable story than this . . .

Tock these are easy. We see the different points of view from the different authors. One writer puts more emphasis on the details than the other. If there was two there, there was one there. For instance Luke was a physician and goes more in depth than the other there is no logical contradiction.

[boots555]

I suggest that people look at the prophecies concerning Christ in the old Testament.

[boots555]

If 2 then 1 and for that 1 the writer goes in depth.

[boots555]

Consider the death of Judas described two diff ways but both end up complementing each other

[Tock]

Tock these are easy. We see the different points of view from the different authors. One writer puts more emphasis on the details than the other. If there was two there, there was one there. For instance Luke was a physician and goes more in depth than the other there is no logical contradiction.

That's a silly attempt to "explain away" some well-founded problems with the various accounts of the Christian Ressurection.

Either the Tomb was open when Jesus' Disciples arrived, or it wasn't. OPEN or CLOSED, which was it?


And when they got there, there was (were) either
1) one young man
2) two men
3) one angel
4) two angels
Which was it?

Seems to me that there's a pretty big difference between a human and an angel. That's not the sort of insignificant difference that's easy to explain away.


The only logical explanation is, the Bible is a collection of stories. Fictions. Not necessarily lies, but just the sort of stories that were never meant to be taken literally, sort of like the characters in novels, or in TV sitcoms.

[boots555]

at first look it is a contradiction.

[Tock]

Consider the death of Judas described two diff ways but both end up complementing each other

Let's not change the subject just yet . . .
Let's consider the questions of:


The various accounts in the Bible say the Tomb was both open, and closed.
Either the Tomb was open when Jesus' Disciples arrived, or it wasn't. OPEN or CLOSED, which was it?


And when they got there, there was (were) either
1) one young man
2) two men
3) one angel
4) two angels
Which was it?

[Tock]

at first look it is a contradiction.

Also at 2nd look, and 3rd, and 4th, because it is a contradiction.

[boots555]

That's a silly attempt to "explain away" some well-founded problems with the various accounts of the Christian Ressurection.

Either the Tomb was open when Jesus' Disciples arrived, or it wasn't. OPEN or CLOSED, which was it?


And when they got there, there was (were) either
1) one young man
2) two men
3) one angel
4) two angels
Which was it?

Seems to me that there's a pretty big difference between a human and an angel. That's not the sort of insignificant difference that's easy to explain away.


The only logical explanation is, the Bible is a collection of stories. Fictions. Not necessarily lies, but just the sort of stories that were never meant to be taken literally, sort of like the characters in novels, or in TV sitcoms.

Much of the time angels appear as human beings. Paul tells us to becareful because some of us with out knowing it have entertained angels. Read the account of Lot. Remember Tock logically if there were 2 there,
then there was one there.




The bible is 66 Books written by more than 40 diff authors over more than 1500 years on 3 different continents all of which coincide in a non contradictory way with a scarlet thread running through the middle of them (Christ).

[Tock]

Much of the time angels appear as human beings.

Would you say that Angels look like humans

a) 1% to 33% of the time?
b) 34% to 67% of the time?
c) 68% to 99% of the time?

or, would you say,

d) I have never seen an Angel, so I really wouldn't know?

[Tock]

I suggest that people look at the prophecies concerning Christ in the old Testament.

Here are some interesting ones:
(courtesy of http://faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm )

----------------
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


Christians say that this verse is a prophecy of Jesus' birth to a virgin. There are a couple problems with this prophecy...First, virgin in this verse is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word "almah", which actually means "young woman". A young woman is not necessarily a virgin. "Bethulah" would have been the correct word to use if the author meant virgin. Second, nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus referred to as Immanuel.


-----------------
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.


There are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.
-------------------


Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.


Christians say that this prophecy is was fulfilled when Judas received 30 pieces of silver for betraying Jesus. Matthew 27:9 recites this verse, but incorrectly credits Jeremiah with the prophecy.

---------------------

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Again, Jesus is never referred to as Emmanuel (Immanuel).
-----------------------

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.


Nowhere in the Old Testament is such a prophecy found, so how could such a one be fulfilled?
------------------

Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?


There is no passage in the Old Testament that can be attributed to what Jesus is saying here.
-------------------


Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value.


This prophecy was never spoken by Jeremiah.

[boots555]

tomarrow Tock

[No One Knows]

I've read the bible cover to cover.


worst. book. ever.

[boots555]

I've read the bible cover to cover.


worst. book. ever.

What is your favorite Book.

[boots555]

the Bible has done more to inspire good than any other book in history.

[boots555]

Awful bold statement

[No One Knows]

What is your favorite Book.

The Chronicles of Narnia

[No One Knows]

the Bible has done more to inspire good than any other book in history.

Sure thing - look how many wars are fought over religion. Hell this entire thread is one big fvckin argument. But hey...if thats what tickles your pickle.

[boots555]

good book

[No One Knows]

Is that stonewall jackson in you avy?

[boots555]

Sure thing - look how many wars are fought over religion. Hell this entire thread is one big fvckin argument. But hey...if thats what tickles your pickle.

No I am sorry but more people have been killed in the name of atheism than all other religious wars combined. Hitler was an atheist so was stalin