Quote Originally Posted by mick86 View Post
I take your point but the 99 out of 100 ridiculesly muscular and ripped guys who claim that they are natural when they are clearly not aggravate me. Its a case of the sheep who cried wolf. I think I have a reasonable idea of what can be achieved naturally, and on a daily biases I hear guys claiming to be natural, even when I know for certain that they are not.

I think that many people have a false sense of what you can achieve naturally proliferated by the constant denial of AAS use by many impressively built men. People think, hey my mate Jim says his natural and he wouldn't lie to me because where best friends. He's been training 4 years and weighs 260 pounds at 5 foot 10 and is below 8% bf so if he can achieve that then anything is possible.

Look at the bodybuilders and pros from before AAS were around, are you going to tell me that training technique, diet and supplement advancements are responsible for every third guy at the gym these days looking better than the best bodybuilders of yesteryear......

i totally agree to an extent.

we know tons more about nutrition than they did 10-15 years ago and supplements have came a long way too. so these do help but they dont get you to 260 at 9%. i understand that.

im talking about 185 at 8-9% to 235 at 13-15%.

a lot of people juice that you wouldnt think juiced.

i ve seen people with crazy genetics mostly black people that are big and cut and dont juice some do, i know. im not naive by any means.

this is all JMO