Police: Motor Vehicle Stops

[thegodfather]

Ok, I'm making this thread as something informative. Although it is always a bad idea to transport gear in your vehicle, there are occasions where you are forced to do so. I.E.-taking gear to a buddy, driving from the PO to home, going on a short distance vacation, and etc.,etc. This was brought to my attention further by an incident that I was involved with a short time ago. I'm also including links to certain definitions if you would like to read into them further and review case precedants for them. Where I post defintions, will be copy/pasted as they are written, however other than strict definitions, all other info will be my own words and interpreatations.

We will begin with a short review of the two most important amendments to know during a motor vehicle stop. I will show thier actual definition in the Constitution and then give a short explanation of what they mean. These two Amendments are paramount to understanding the latitude that police have during a MVS.


Constitutional and Legal Definitions and Analysis:




4th Amendment- The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Analysis: This means that simple traffic violations, such as speeding, tinted windows, registration, etc., etc., are not grounds for a vehicle search. There would need to be exigent circumstances such as the smell of marijuana(which is subjective), alcohol on your breath, or visible(plain sight) drug paraphenalia or weapons. Minor traffic violations DO NOT constitute reasonable suspicion for a vehicle search.


5th Amendment- No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Analysis: The most important part of this amendment is where it says you are not required to testify against yourself. Additionally, this means that you are not required to ASSIST a police officer in prosecuting yourself by answering his questions. We will use this principle in my later explanation of how to handle a motor vehicle stop.


Probable Cause: A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. A reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true. Probable cause is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause

Reasonable Suspicion: "Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law that a person has been, is, or is about to be, engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences. It is the basis for an investigatory or Terry stop by the police and requires less evidence than probable cause, the legal requirement for arrests and warrants. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard, in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be, engaged in criminal activity; such suspicion is not a mere hunch. Police may also, based solely on reasonable suspicion of a threat to safety, frisk a suspect for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion.
Frisking or a "patdown" is a search of a person's outer clothing wherein a police officer or other law enforcement agent runs his or her hands along the outer garments to detect any concealed weapons or other contraband.
In the case of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), the Supreme Court of the United States held that police have the ability to do a limited search for weapons of areas within the suspect’s control based on a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the person stopped was "armed and dangerous" and had been, is, or was about to engage in a criminal act. The type of frisk authorized by this decision has become known as a Terry stop and frisk or simply Terry stop." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

Terry Stop: "A Terry stop has two parts: the stop and the frisk. When Terry stopping someone, the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that criminal activity has, is, or is about to be committed. During the course of the law enforcment agent's stop, if the officer feels that the suspect is in possession of a weapon that is of danger to him or others, he may conduct a patdown of the suspect's outer clothing garments to search for weapons. For the frisk to be constitutional, the officer must testify that he conducted a patdown for his personal safety, or the safety of others in the area. Pursuant to the "plain feel" doctrine, police may seize not only weapons discovered in a Terry stop but also contraband when the contraband nature of such is immediately apparent to the officer. An officer may not, however, seize such contraband if its identity is not immediately apparent to the officer upon administering the frisking." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop




Common Questions&Your Response to them!

1st-"Can I search your vehicle? You must never agree to give consent to a search of your vehicle. If you give consent to the officer then you have essentially acquiesced your 4th Amendment right to him.

2nd-"Where are you coming from? Where are you going to? You are not required to answer any questions about where you are coming from or where you are going to. It is completely irrelevant to a motor vehicle stop, and you are not required to answer it.

3rd-"Do you have something to hide?" Respectfully denying the officer consent to search your vehicle, IS NOT REASONABLE SUSPICION/PROBABLE CAUSE for a search! Do not ever listen to an officer who says "you have something to hide" because you denied him the search.

4th-"I need your passengers ID" Your passengers are not required to give the officer any form of identification if there is no reasonable suspicion that a crime is or has been committed. It would be the equivalent of a police officer RANDOMLY asking people on the street to present ID when there is no reason to believe they have committed a crime.

5th- "Im going to go talk to your passengers" The officer is allowed to ask your passengers questions, however, they are not required to answer any of these questions. Police officers often attempt to ask your passengers questions about where you were going or coming from, what is in the car, etc, in order to have a conflicting story from the drivers. This is why your passengers should also respectfully decline to answer any of his questions. The 5th amendment protects the passengers from having to answer these questions.

6th-"Would your passengers mind stepping out of the vehicle"- The police officer CAN NOT ASK YOUR PASSENGERS TO GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE! Unless there is reasonable suspicion or the officer can effectively articulate in a court of law that his life was in danger, he may not ask any passengers to exit the vehicle.

7th- "Driver, please step out of the vehicle"- The law does allow for the officer to remove the driver from the vehicle for his own safety. Remember, only the driver is allowed to be removed from the vehicle.

8th- "Drive, I'm going to pat you down for my safety to check for weapons"- Terry v. Ohio does allow for an officer to check your person for weapons which could harm him, however it is restricted to a PAT DOWN only. The officer may not enter your pockets. However, if you have a hundred winny tabs in your pocket and the officer can articulate that they are pills, he is then able to search.



Exceptions:
There are exceptions when police officers are able to search your vehicle, for instance:

Search Incident to Arrest: In this case, if you are arrested for a DUI offense, or have a pending warrant for a traffic or other violations, the officer is able to search your vehicle, because it is a "search incident to arrest." If your vehicle is impounded it will often be inventoried to prevent you from claiming any items were stolen.



The 3 things you should say during a traffic stop


1) "Officer, what is the nature of this stop?"- The officer must identify why you are being stopped. If they tell you it is for nothing, you then move to the next question.

2) "Officer, am I being detained?" - This is vital. At this point the officer must identify if you are being detained or not. If you are not being detained, then legally you are free to go. If you ARE being detained, the officer must identify what the charges are or what his reasonable suspicion is to believe you have committed a crime.

3) "Officer, what am I being charged with?"- This is equally as crucial. If you are being detained, and the officer is investigating you, you must be charged with a crime. You force the officer into either lying and creating false charges, or into letting you go because he has no evidence to charge you with a crime.


Legal Loophole:

You have survived the car search thus far, and the cop is still pursuing it. Now what? The officer will most likely call the K-9 unit to come out and inspect the car. Now, there have been studies which show that drug sniffing dogs have between a 12.5-60% error/false positive rate. This is because of the way the dogs are trained. They are trained to associate drugs with a reward, such as a toy or dog treats. Simply having a dog bone, tennis ball, or old gym socks in your vehicle could cause the dog to alert. It is also somewhat "Known" that K-9 officers give the dogs commands in german, and can signal the dog to falsely alert, even if the dog otherwise wouldn't have. It is the officers last resort to try and obtain a legal search. Unless the K-9 search around the vehicle is recorded by the officers vehicle it is almost always inadmissable in cout, because there is no evidence that the dog was not signaled to alert falsely. This is of course the most troubling aspect to protecting your civil liberties. I have not really seen a single instance where a dog did not alert when the officer called them out. Even if the dog alerts and they find contraband in the vehicle that the dog was not able to smell, the officer will claim in court that you had other contraband in your vehicle that the dog could smell. The key to defending yourself in this case, is that the officer had no reasonable suspicion to call the dogs in the first place. So long as you stick to your guns and continue to deny consent of a search you will be able to beat it in court the majority of the time.


Recap:

When pulled over, give your drivers license, insurance, and registration. Respectfully decline to answer any other questions which do not pertain to the stop. Remember your 4th and 5th amendment rights. You are not required to answer nonsensical questions such as where you are going and etc. Your passengers are not required to give the officer ID, and they are not required to answer any of his stupid questions, and they may not be asked to exit the vehicle. Only the driver may be asked to exit the vehicle for officer safety. The driver can be terry searched/patted down for weapons. NEVER CONSENT TO A SEARCH OF YOUR VEHICLE. Always keep what you are transporting in a locked container, either your glovebox or your trunk. I will add to this post as time goes on and I realize things that I have forgotten or other useful information.

GF

[g0dsend]

Excellent post and information. Also, I read somewere that you should keep stuff in the center, and as high as possible to minimize the dogs to find anything.

[spywizard]

very good.. just a brief thought however..

Failure to obey the direct orders of a police officer (as in a mvs) could result in possible death in extreme conditions..

Imagine a night stop, the officer removes the driver, driver becomes combatant, the officer subdues him and finds a weapon on him. He then orders you out of the car (you do not have a weapon) does he have probable cause?? no, is he fearful for his safety?? yes..
you refuse, person 3 begins to act loud and crazy in the back seat and throws something at the cop.. he shoots, you die.. was he wrong?? yes he was, however.. you are dead..

[g0dsend]

person 3 begins to act loud and crazy in the back seat and throws something at the cop.. he shoots, you die..

LOL Person 3

[yourmom]

Dude, all the cops I know dont give a crap about gear. They will however ask you where to get some, lol. Just be nice do what they ask of you. No reason to freak out. As a firefighter, we play a football game once a year, and every time, we all get to talking about gear, and who does what. I will tell you if you look and act guilty, they will react. So, no tinted window on your car, no bags on the floor board, Don't give them a reason to look, because when they do, they're no looking for gear, the're looking for pot, crank, meth. Dont act like a dealer, and you will be ok.

[DSM4Life]

Do not listen to the cop.....
unless this is the cop :



Then you must follow all orders !

[Bojangles69]

I'm sorry, I disagree with too much of this post.

If a cop pulls you over they ALREADY 99% of the time have probable cause through a chain of procedures they must follow and continue to establish probable cause through.

You get pulled over.

Their job - Identify driver.

You exercise you're 5th ammendment, they exercise their rights.
Seize you're vehicle, call a judge, issue a warrant, search your car, find stash.

Or take you to jail, run your prints; WHILE this is being done they have the right to "inventory" your vehicle. Its NOT a search. But when they find drugs, you're still fvcked in all aspects of the law.

I'd love to sit here all day and cite counterarguements but the fact is KNOWING LAW or ammendments does not give you the right to break the law. And WHEN you break the law you lose certain rights, for instance something called freedom.

My advice would be don't sit there and talk law with the cops unless you really have nothing in your car. Otherwise KNOW how and where to hide that shit, that will take you much further than trying to use a cops rules against themselves. Organized crime has their own rules, I do not participate nor suggest anyone gets involved in any illegal activities, but there ARE much better ways to prevent these circumstances.

In context of whats "legal" on AR however, I'd have to say great post.
If I tried to make a post on how to get a stash from point A to point B I'd prob be banned/suspended for it.

[Bojangles69]

Do not listen to the cop.....
unless this is the cop :



Then you must follow all orders !

If a cop like that ever gave me an "order" I'd be serving life for taking his.

[Coop77]

Good advice about what to do regarding searches, etc. But I wouldn't advise refusing to answer simple questions like "Where are you going", even if you have the right to. The more you establish yourself in the cop's mind as uncooperative, the harder time he's going to give you.

[ecto9]

Do not listen to the cop.....
unless this is the cop :



Then you must follow all orders !

O.K. Now that cop just may let you (not just you, but anybody) go if you suck his d!ck, lol...

[football2007]

question for someone in this thread..


Any idea why the last 3 times I have been pulled over I have been pulled out of my car and asked to stand behind it?

I find this odd. A few times it was fukin freezing..

[spywizard]

question for someone in this thread..


Any idea why the last 3 times I have been pulled over I have been pulled out of my car and asked to stand behind it?

I find this odd. A few times it was fukin freezing..

messin with ya..

[bd50]

Good advice about what to do regarding searches, etc. But I wouldn't advise refusing to answer simple questions like "Where are you going", even if you have the right to. The more you establish yourself in the cop's mind as uncooperative, the harder time he's going to give you.

i agree. it makes u look more "guilty" than innocent, and they will try real hard to get into your car and search for something.

[inky-e]

Bro this post is valid. BUT in the real world a cop can do pretty much as he pleases with you during a stop. If you show any kind of contempt for his power to do so, you're getting taken in. Whether he violates your rights or not it won't matter at the time of arrest. Theres an old saying that goes... You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride!

[jchopper1]

i wonder how many dui's there was this weekend?