National service

**Odpierdol_sie!** · 07-12-2008, 07:26 AM

Only one way to sort out youth today....Make them see what real discipline is like and teach them respect the only way proven to work effectively

1,Take them away from their home

2, Make them live in billets in a base far far away

3, Have them rise at 4 a.m for a p.t session in the freezing cold, over tired and starving hungry.

4, Make them square bash for hours on end followed by more pt in the freezing cold or blistering heat

5, Let them know that they will eat when told and sleep when told, speak move breath shit when told.

6, Make them take care of them self's and how to orderly arrange their attire for inspection.

7, When unruly send them for a chat with the Staff Sergeant in the guard room for a day or two.

8, Make them sign up for 3 years or spend 10 in jail

9, Take them at 17 (if not in higher education)

10, Break them down and rebuild them....

11, Offer them a real chance at a career in the armed forces.

And finally......

12, Take them as boys, return them as men

I think this is the answer to the UK youth culture and total disregard for authority.
It worked years ago, why wont it work now?
The past few decades have proved that sending young criminals to jail time and time again does not work.

BRING BACK NATIONAL SERVICE

**Psychotron** · 07-12-2008, 09:36 AM

Umm, no

**Odpierdol_sie!** · 07-12-2008, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Psychotron

Umm, no

No what?

**Psychotron** · 07-12-2008, 10:00 AM

No National Service. Just as I feel the govt. has no right to tell me what I can do with my body, they have no right to force me into military service.

**Odpierdol_sie!** · 07-12-2008, 10:54 AM

I dont have an issue with it and it would sort out the problems this generation of society is suffering from!

**Timm1704** · 07-12-2008, 11:45 AM

i think you raise great points, and psychotron: i think he means just young criminals who dont benefit from going to jail, and just keep reoffending. The knife crime here in england is getting ridiculous, i dont like kids in general and want to kill and rape the lot of them when i hear about them all stabbing one another and beating up random people.

I see children acting up in public and genuinely dont seem to care about any sort of authority. That in my opinion is because our government, and the western world in general, are pussies who dont seem to live in the real world. If a 9 year old child kicked my dog in the street for no reason, i would scar that child mentally for life, then I would go to jail, and i would be the bad guy.

When i lived in spain for 6 months, no tourists messed with the police, or even us security for the most part, because they knew that we were abit more free on how we dealt with dickheads.

Whilst in england, the police cant do shit, and when i worked the doors round here, whenever we so much as restrained someone or put them on the floor, we risked getting sued.

I urge you all to read the RIP common sense thread

**Odpierdol_sie!** · 07-12-2008, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Timm1704

i think you raise great points, and psychotron: i think he means just young criminals who dont benefit from going to jail, and just keep reoffending. The knife crime here in england is getting ridiculous, i dont like kids in general and want to kill and rape the lot of them when i hear about them all stabbing one another and beating up random people.

I see children acting up in public and genuinely dont seem to care about any sort of authority. That in my opinion is because our government, and the western world in general, are pussies who dont seem to live in the real world. If a 9 year old child kicked my dog in the street for no reason, i would scar that child mentally for life, then I would go to jail, and i would be the bad guy.

When i lived in spain for 6 months, no tourists messed with the police, or even us security for the most part, because they knew that we were abit more free on how we dealt with dickheads.

Whilst in england, the police cant do shit, and when i worked the doors round here, whenever we so much as restrained someone or put them on the floor, we risked getting sued.

I urge you all to read the RIP common sense thread

In a time of peace, there is always a way out for people who don't want to go to the army and that is to continue on to higher education.

I think youngsters today have been set a bad example by their peers and for this we are suffering because not all but many don't give a shit about anything.
I see that if you only sent criminals to the army you would end up with a army full of dick heads resulting in good, normal minded people avoiding the armed forces.

What id suggest once 17 you go to National Service or you go to Uni.... If for any reason you leave uni prematurely you will be forced to carry out your 3 years national service or go to jail.

It basically that simple.....

Young offenders, and criminals would have to be put in another means of service either you go to a military run jail (Glass House).... or a county prison that runs chain gangs.

Now, for a youth growing up what would your aspirations be?

Simple fact is, you fvck about you either spend your days being beasted or digging holes.
You are too thick to go to uni, go to the army n learn a bit of discipline and respect to pass on to the next generation
You dont like the options available to you for that the answer is plain and simple fvck off to somewhere else then!

**Red Ketchup** · 07-13-2008, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Odpierdol_sie!

What id suggest once 17 you go to National Service or you go to Uni....

I disagree...

I think EVERYONE should have to serve their country for 1-2 years, choice of either military, civil service or "peace corps" type service. None of this draft dodging university crap just because daddy's rich.

If anything, I am convinced it would make more respectful and well rounded citizens.

Red

**Psychotron** · 07-13-2008, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

I disagree...

I think EVERYONE should have to serve their country for 1-2 years, choice of either military, civil service or "peace corps" type service. None of this draft dodging university crap just because daddy's rich.

If anything, I am convinced it would make more respectful and well rounded citizens.

Red

I didn't get someone to pay for my bachelors, masters or my phd. Doing it on my own. If you want to use that as a blanket excuse, fine, but don't think everyone who worked their ass off to get through college deserves to be sent to the military.

A draft completely goes against this country's founding principles.

Originally Posted by Ron Paul

The draft is a totalitarian institution that is based on the idea that the government owns you and can dispose of your life as it wishes. Republican Senator Taft said the draft was “far more typical of totalitarian nations than of democratic nations. It is absolutely opposed to the principles of individual liberty, which have always been considered a part of American democracy.” Conservative thinker Russell Kirk referred to the draft as “slavery”. Military conscription, said Ronald Reagan in 1979, “rests on the assumption that your kids belong to the state…. That assumption isn’t a new one. The Nazis thought it was a great idea.” The following year, in a speech at Louisiana State University, Reagan added:

Originally Posted by Ronald Reagan

I oppose registration for the draft … because I believe the security of freedom can best be achieved by security through freedom. The all-voluntary force is based on the sound and historic American principle of voluntary commitment to the defense of freedom. …The United State of American believes a free people do not have to be coerced in defending their country or their values and that the principle of freedom is the best and only foundation upon which a defense of freedom can be made. My vision of a secure America is based on my belief that freedom call forth the best in the human spirit and that the denser of freedom can and will best me made out of love of country, a love that needs no coercion. Out of such a love, a real security will develop, because in the final analysis, the free human and spirit are the best and most reliable defense.

In late 1814, fearing that conscription was about to come to America, Daniel Webster delivered a stirring speech against it on the House floor. (Webster served for many years in both the House and the Senate, and he held the office of secretary of state in both the early 1840s and early 1850s.) Webster’s belief in a strong central government made his words against the draft all the more striking. “Where is it written in the Constitution,” he demanded, “in what article or section is it contained, that you may take children from their parents, and parents from their children, and compel them to fight the battles of any way, in which the folly or the wickedness of Government may engage it?” The draft was irreconcilable with both the the principles of a free society and the provisions of the Constitution. “In granting Congress the power to raise armies,” Webster explained, “the people have granted all the means which are ordinary and usual, and which are consistent with the liberties and security of the people themselves, and they have granted no others. …A free government with arbitrary means to administer it is a contradiction; a free government without adequate provisions for personal security is an absurdity; a free government, with an uncontrolled power of military conscription, is a solecism, at once the most ridiculous and abominable that ever entered into the head of man.”

Webster was right both morally and constitutionally. Nowhere in the Constitution is the federal government given the power to conscript citizens. The power to raise armies is not a power to force people into the army. As Webster put it,

Originally Posted by Daniel Webster

I almost disdain to go to quotations and references to prove that such an abominable doctrine has no foundation in the Constitution of the country. It is enough to know that that instrument was intended as the basis of a free government, and that the power contended for is incompatible with any notion of personal liberty. An attempt to maintain this doctrine upon the provision of the Constitution is an exercise of perverse ingenuity to extract slavery from substance of a free government.

He continued:

Originally Posted by Daniel Webster

Congress having, by the Constitution, a power to raise armies, the Secretary [of War] contends that no restrain is to be imposed on the exercise of this power, except such as is expressly stated in the written letter of the instrument. In other words, that Congress may execute its powers, by any means it chooses, unless such means are particularly prohibited. But the general nature and object of the Constitution impose as rigid a restriction on the means of exercising power as could be done by the most explicit injunctions. It is the first principle applicable to such a case, that no construction shall be admitted which impairs the general nature and character of the instrument. A free constitution of government is to be construed upon free principles, and every branch of its provisions is to receive such an interpretation as if full of its general spirit. No means are to be taken by implication which would strike us absurdly if expressed. And what would have been more absurd than for this Constitution to have said that to secure the great blessings of liberty it gave to government uncontrolled power of military conscription? Yet such is the absurdity which it is made to exhibit, under the commentary of the Secretary of War.

Lesser forms of the draft, such as compulsory “national service,” are based on the same unacceptable premise. Young people are not raw material to be employed by the political class on behalf of whatever fashionable political, military, or social cause catches its fancy. In a free society, their lives are not the playthings of government.

**wilson9d** · 07-14-2008, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

I disagree...

I think EVERYONE should have to serve their country for 1-2 years, choice of either military, civil service or "peace corps" type service. None of this draft dodging university crap just because daddy's rich.

If anything, I am convinced it would make more respectful and well rounded citizens.

Red

i agree with red. i dont think everyone is cut out for military service but people need to serve their country. 1. national pride. 2. discipline 3. work ethic 4. honor

**inheritmylife** · 07-14-2008, 07:56 PM

I sometimes wonder how many of the folks that roll up their sleeves and start beating on their chests over mandatory national service are the same people who didn't VOLUNTARILY serve while they were young enough to do so.

"The youth these days are so irresponsible...."

When the hell have youth ever been responsible?

**Odpierdol_sie!** · 07-12-2008, 12:07 PM

Cant agree more with you Timm.

When was the last time you saw a fight in a Spanish bar? i aint ever seen one..... ive seen a few coppers kicking the fvck out of some scousers once though, after teh lads footing the door kicked the fvck out of them first.

This country needs to get tough.

**wilson9d** · 07-12-2008, 04:51 PM

i agree people need to serve their country for at least 2 years.

**inky-e** · 07-12-2008, 05:06 PM

Bro, considering the youth of today, I don't want them "protecting" me. I want them right here in the street so I know what they're up to.

**CSAR** · 07-13-2008, 07:37 AM

I TOTALLY agree. I think 2 years of military service should be mandatory for all. Those serving 4 or more years should be able to attend university for free after an honorable discharge.
"Freedom isn't free,
it takes folks like you and me,
and if you don't chip in your buck 'o five,
who will?"

**MFT81** · 07-14-2008, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by CSAR

I TOTALLY agree. I think 2 years of military service should be mandatory for all. Those serving 4 or more years should be able to attend university for free after an honorable discharge.
"Freedom isn't free,
it takes folks like you and me,
and if you don't chip in your buck 'o five,
who will?"

Thats the way it is in israel, I think most everyone does two years after high school,

I dont agree with having a draft/mandatory service but I like the idea of doing 4 years active for free college for honorable........

LMAO on the buck o 5... "WHAT WOULD YOU DO"

**Glow2004** · 07-13-2008, 11:11 AM

yes yes yes yes yes

**zimmy** · 07-13-2008, 11:14 PM

SOUNDS GREAT.... next the country can decide what career I should go in...OH OH AND THEN....they can decide what my hobbies are "allowed to be".

socialism always sounds great on paper...

p.s. might want to look at a list of countries that have required services for there citizens....the list DOES include Germany during the Nazi party.

**Odpierdol_sie!** · 07-14-2008, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by zimmy

SOUNDS GREAT.... next the country can decide what career I should go in...OH OH AND THEN....they can decide what my hobbies are "allowed to be".

socialism always sounds great on paper...

p.s. might want to look at a list of countries that have required services for there citizens....the list DOES include Germany during the Nazi party.

So your point is?

**wascaptain5214** · 07-14-2008, 04:49 AM

i dont think thats the way Odpierdol Sie. now if the kid is trouble, then yea, but as for average youth .....no way! i feel the problem starts at home and the kids are the products of there up bringing. to me the biggest problem, is the family break down, both parents work or the single parent does , who watches the kids and teaches them values?...the school? the thug across the steet? the problem and cure starts at home....but in my case, i was a run away at 17 and went into the marine corps....cured me and i still live by corps standards today......

**Kratos** · 07-14-2008, 03:13 PM

what if I don't want my kid to be molded by the govmt into what they think will make for a better society. Free choice. Maybe an alternative to prision time or juvie hall for non violent criminals, idk. Send everybody though, that's bull crap.

**Red Ketchup** · 07-14-2008, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

what if I don't want my kid to be molded by the govmt into what they think will make for a better society.

What do you think grade, mid and high school are?

I still think that everyone should have to perform 1 year of service to their country, state or community between high school and college/university. I would instill civic duty and respect.

Originally Posted by Psychotron

A draft completely goes against this country's founding principles.

Right, so there was no draft for WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam, and you don't currently have to register with the Selective Service after your 18th birthday?

See I don't want to draft anyone in the army, my opinion is that after high school, 1 year of serving their community/state/country in various jobs would do wonders instilling discipline, pride and civic duty. Things that have all but disappeared in the last 20 or so years.

Red

**Psychotron** · 07-14-2008, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

Right, so there was no draft for WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam, and you don't currently have to register with the Selective Service after your 18th birthday?

See I don't want to draft anyone in the army, my opinion is that after high school, 1 year of serving their community/state/country in various jobs would do wonders instilling discipline, pride and civic duty. Things that have all but disappeared in the last 20 or so years.

Red

I didn't say I agreed with drafts, I am completely against it past or future.

The Selective Service registration doesn't enlist you in anything, it just puts your information in their system. It's mainly used by recruiters to spam you.

**Red Ketchup** · 07-14-2008, 08:58 PM

Why do you assume we didn't serve our country or community one way or another?

I'm very comfortable in knowing I've done my part serving my community, and I will highly encourage my boy to serve his community or country when he is old enough to do so.

Red

**inheritmylife** · 07-14-2008, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

Why do you assume we didn't serve our country or community one way or another?

I'm very comfortable in knowing I've done my part serving my community, and I will highly encourage my boy to serve his community or country when he is old enough to do so.

Red

I could serve my community by picking up a bubble gum wrapper or volunteering to run the beer tent at the county fair, but being forced to do so isn't being a citizen active in government, it's slavery.

**Red Ketchup** · 07-14-2008, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by inheritmylife

I could serve my community by picking up a bubble gum wrapper or volunteering to run the beer tent at the county fair

Now you're just turning this to ridicule...

being forced to do so isn't being a citizen active in government, it's slavery.

I'll have to disagree there... I would make it part of the high school program. Call it the "civic duty" internship. You don't do it, you fail HS.

Red

**Psychotron** · 07-15-2008, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

I'll have to disagree there... I would make it part of the high school program. Call it the "civic duty" internship. You don't do it, you fail HS.

Red

Call it whatever you want, it's still being forced to do something that doesn't benefit you. It benefits the government, and you're forced to do it, it's still just as he says slavery.

**inheritmylife** · 07-15-2008, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

Now you're just turning this to ridicule...

I'll have to disagree there... I would make it part of the high school program. Call it the "civic duty" internship. You don't do it, you fail HS.

Red

No offence intended my friend.

If we had that, it wouldn't be forcing me to serve, it would be forcing my children. I don't think that is any better.

**Lemonada8** · 07-15-2008, 10:06 AM

^but if everyone did what was benefited themselves more then teh government, we wouldnt be here today...

military service doesnt benefit you? everyone i have talked to thats in the military is a different person when they are done.... and they usually dont regret going into the military....

and it is a free country, you live here do be under the protection of the gov. and society.... and to not let the gov. do something that they think is best for the country is absurd (not saying i'm for/against, just saying the gov does more shit than people realize)

and for the comment earilier about the past countries who have had a mandatory draft... Germany's armed forces during the nazi time were amazing, and ahead of their time... their leader was messed in the head and also stupid.... but that doesnt take away from the power of the german army... but if any country was to revive a notion like that where the main priority is to have a bad ass army, wouldnt go very far because a good army is only good when tested aka war, and noone wants that and similarly to WW1, everyone has allies and such which one little incident could spark another world war.... which some argue is what we need to get our economy goin again...

**Psychotron** · 07-15-2008, 10:28 AM

Look, it doesn't matter what social excuse you guys can ring up here. The bottom line is forcing someone to do your bidding is not a free government. Name all the advantages you want, I don't care.

For the same reason I oppose all this patriot act non-sense, and spying, I oppose a draft, national service or any type of slavery. None of them are inline with freedom and liberty.

**sam_sneed** · 07-15-2008, 10:51 AM

> Sorry but reactionary measures will not solve any social problem. What you suggest does not tackle the root of the problem so it cannot possibly solve it.

> National service? The whole UK military is a joke kept alive by people who cannot even get Five GCSE's and too lazy or stupid to get a higher education.

**Odpierdol_sie!** · 07-15-2008, 12:02 PM

Always the same old shit spoken by the people who think they know everything even without doing it, in the 60's they were called hippies.... today? i call them wankers.

If you have never worked for a disciplined uniformed service then you dont know what you are talking about. Most politicians are in this boat hence the reason why most western nations society are fvcked up, something a nanny state has forced down our necks over time

**sam_sneed** · 07-15-2008, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Odpierdol_sie!

Always the same old shit spoken by the people who think they know everything even without doing it, in the 60's they were called hippies.... today? i call them wankers.

If you have never worked for a disciplined uniformed service then you dont know what you are talking about. Most politicians are in this boat hence the reason why most western nations society are fvcked up, something a nanny state has forced down our necks over time

> So you advocate a military dictatorship then since everyone with an education knows nothing and military types clearly are better suited to govern?

> Western nations are f'ed up lol at this you should look at how others live and be grateful.

**Odpierdol_sie!** · 07-15-2008, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by sam_sneed

> So you advocate a military dictatorship then since everyone with an education knows nothing and military types clearly are better suited to govern?

> Western nations are f'ed up lol at this you should look at how others live and be grateful.

What are you on about, are you just trying to be pedantic with your first bullet point?

**SMCengineer** · 07-15-2008, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Odpierdol_sie!

Always the same old shit spoken by the people who think they know everything even without doing it, in the 60's they were called hippies.... today? i call them wankers.

If you have never worked for a disciplined uniformed service then you dont know what you are talking about. Most politicians are in this boat hence the reason why most western nations society are fvcked up, something a nanny state has forced down our necks over time

Umm...forcing citizens into national service is part of a nanny state!

**energizer bunny** · 07-15-2008, 12:26 PM

You say take them as boys and return them as men, what about the females, some of them are as bad as the lads!!

Personaly i dont think its right, there are plenty of young kids who dont do anything wrong and they shouldnt be pushed into something they dont want to do..... on the other hand i think it would of done me the world of good. Tho i dont think i would of admited it back then!!

Maybe make bad kids who are getting in trouble all the time do something along those lines.

**Flagg** · 07-15-2008, 12:52 PM

Great idea mate, it's what we need to sort out these little feral cvnts running riot and stabbing people at random. Unfortunately you are gonna get those shouting about how the government is just trying to control, but it's a lack of control that is allowing these little bastards to let anarchy ensue.

**Flagg** · 07-15-2008, 12:56 PM

Gordon Browns idea at the moment is to send people caught with knives, to go visit knife victims in hospital. I mean, you've just been stabbed up by a gang, so the last you want to see is them looming over you in a hospital bed. David Camerons idea is to lock everyone up that carries a knife, inpractical as unfortunately a lot of kids, bully victims mostly, are arming themselves out of fear. No, you need to nip this kind of problem in the bud. Im 100% for national service. Didn't harm anyone in the past, and at least there wasn't disrespect from teenagers back then.

**Odpierdol_sie!** · 07-15-2008, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by energizer bunny

You say take them as boys and return them as men, what about the females, some of them are as bad as the lads!!
.

Girls are always on about equal rights etc.... they want to commit crimes then they can fvck the idea of community service n painting fences etc! "get to the glass house you fackin lil slag"....

Get them square bashing at a pace of 150 steps a minute for hours on end. A few months wont be long changing their ways, See how quick they are to re-offend then.

**Timm1704** · 07-15-2008, 03:06 PM

ah fook it, capital punishment would save alot of time and money.group all the knife weilding, anti social little chavs, and burn them all to dust, that way their bodies wont take up any room.

Problem. Solved.

Or, let me rape them infront of their parents. problem solved, plus i get a load off. win win