I don't believe mental illnesses exist

[GT2]

OK, you're probably saying to yourself "this guy is fvckin' crazy, how could he say such a thing?", but hear me out. Maybe I can get you thinking.

Mental illnesses are illnesses of the mind, correct? They are not illnesses of the brain, because then that would be classified as a physiological illness. But where is the mind? Can we see, feel, touch, or even measure the mind? So therefore, how can something (the mind) that cannot be measured, have an illness?

Anxiety, depression, eating and personality disorders, phobias, etc...it's all bullsh*t. There have even been numerous studies done where people with "mental illnesses" were given placebo medications (sugar pills) thinking they were real drugs, and their problems were solved! They rid themselves of their "mental illness". Why? Because they never had a mental illness in the first place!

You can disagree with me all you like. But I just want you to think about it for a moment. If you cannot measure something, how can you say it has an illness?

[beatango2008]

I agree with you to some point,
but how do you explaine retarded people?
do you think they are pretending?
I mean some cases some people may just think they have a mind-illness condition, and not really have anything at all, because its all in their head.

[GT2]

I agree with you to some point,
but how do you explaine retarded people?
do you think they are pretending?
I mean some cases some people may just think they have a mind-illness condition, and not really have anything at all, because its all in their head.

"Retarded people" do not have mental illnesses. Their illness is physiological e.g. down-syndrome. Nothing to do with their state of mind, but rather the number of chromosomes they have.

[Coop77]

Yeah, anxiety disorder and ADD and that kind of thing are baloney, but actual crazy people do exist. Trust me, I live in crazytown. There's a homeless lady in my neighborhood that refuses to throw anything away, ever. She piles trash and crap up 5 feet high on top of her car, which she lives in. Everyone calls her "the trash lady." There's another guy that screams at cars and holds a sign that says "I am God."

[KingTenderloin]

im with ya hamish.... my roommate in college had the dreaded ADD/ADHD and he was prescribed adderall, which he gave me when i needed to write a paper, but all it did for him was make him an amphetimine addict and made him even slower lol....he sat on myspace for hours upon hours just staring at the screen at any hour of the day/night

[956Vette]

It's been awhile since I've hit the bong

[JiGGaMaN]

thats preposterous!

[MuscleScience]

Interesting points, but by your line of reasoning I could also say a multitude of conditions do not exist based on clinical outcomes directly related to the placebo effect.

Additionally not until recently have scientist been able to actually see the brain and its inner workings in real time. A large bit of our knowledge of how the brain and physcy work was done by the oblation method, where an area of the brain was destroyed experimentally in animals or by study of accidents in humans which gave us the general notions of what areas of the brain do what.

Next it was also believed that the brain in the human adult was rigid and underwent very little remodeling after childhood. It was thought that dysfunction was a result of damage or loss of a certain area of the brain.

Fast forward to today, scientist now have been able to use new imaging technologies to see the brain in real time. It is now understood that the adult brain is much more plastic than was once thought. No longer is mental illness thought of as purely physiological. In a sense it is but the notion that physiology effects mental function is not completely correct. Since the brain is plastic, it can adapt to its environment. It can rearrange its neural connections with other neurons. This can be caused by yes environmental factors. Emotional stresses can also rearrange these connections.

If the neural synapses and their specific interconnects or multi-connects is what gives us our conscience then would it not be fair to say that our own awareness can alter our physiological state of mind to a certain extent.

I hope that makes since it is late and I am tiiiiirrrreeeddd.....LOL

[956Vette]

Hamish&Andy, check this dvd out sometime. Think you would enjoy it

[stpete]

OK, you're probably saying to yourself "this guy is fvckin' crazy, how could he say such a thing?", but hear me out. Maybe I can get you thinking.

Mental illnesses are illnesses of the mind, correct? They are not illnesses of the brain, because then that would be classified as a physiological illness. But where is the mind? Can we see, feel, touch, or even measure the mind? So therefore, how can something (the mind) that cannot be measured, have an illness?

Anxiety, depression, eating and personality disorders, phobias, etc...it's all bullsh*t. There have even been numerous studies done where people with "mental illnesses" were given placebo medications (sugar pills) thinking they were real drugs, and their problems were solved! They rid themselves of their "mental illness". Why? Because they never had a mental illness in the first place!

You can disagree with me all you like. But I just want you to think about it for a moment. If you cannot measure something, how can you say it has an illness?

OR...If you can't measure it, how can you say they don't have an issue? Don't down people less fortunate than ourselves. Not saying you are, but let's all remember where we came from.
I know i'm bigger and stronger than you. Who cares? No one!! Let's all get along and be family as best we can. It'll only help us.

[GT2]

OR...If you can't measure it, how can you say they don't have an issue? Don't down people less fortunate than ourselves. Not saying you are, but let's all remember where we came from.
I know i'm bigger and stronger than you. Who cares? No one!! Let's all get along and be family as best we can. It'll only help us.

Nice off-topic rant

[thegodfather]

Are you a neuroscientist? Thats quite a bold hypothesis...

[GT2]

Are you a neuroscientist? Thats quite a bold hypothesis...

No I'm not. It's meant to be bold, and it's meant to be thought-provoking.

[Voice of Reason]

Delusional...

[thegodfather]

OK, you're probably saying to yourself "this guy is fvckin' crazy, how could he say such a thing?", but hear me out. Maybe I can get you thinking.

Mental illnesses are illnesses of the mind, correct? They are not illnesses of the brain, because then that would be classified as a physiological illness. But where is the mind? Can we see, feel, touch, or even measure the mind? So therefore, how can something (the mind) that cannot be measured, have an illness?

Anxiety, depression, eating and personality disorders, phobias, etc...it's all bullsh*t. There have even been numerous studies done where people with "mental illnesses" were given placebo medications (sugar pills) thinking they were real drugs, and their problems were solved! They rid themselves of their "mental illness". Why? Because they never had a mental illness in the first place!

You can disagree with me all you like. But I just want you to think about it for a moment. If you cannot measure something, how can you say it has an illness?

You can certainly measure the physiological responses the body has to a mental disorder. For instance an anxiety/panic attack. We can measure increased heart rate, elevated blood pressure, perspiration of the forehead and hands, and etc. These physiological symptoms can then be attenuated by the introduction of something like a benzodiazepine. While it is true that placebo's can attenuate the symptoms (sometimes up to 30% of participants) it does not mean that a physiologic disorder in the brain is not present. All this would seem to indicate is that the mind can be controlled with 'suggestion' in some percentage of people. Regardess of whether a placebo or active drug has attenuated the symptoms, both modalities have treated the primary cause of the symptoms. So the idea that physiological problems in the brain do not exist, or are irrelevant, simply because a placebo can have the same outcome as an active drug (in SOME cases) just doesn't make sense. Thats my opinion.

[villan]

I allways though add and adhd, was just an excue they needed to medicate naughty kids, made up bullshit in my opinion, i know i was on ritalin!

[GT2]

You can certainly measure the physiological responses the body has to a mental disorder. For instance an anxiety/panic attack. We can measure increased heart rate, elevated blood pressure, perspiration of the forehead and hands, and etc. These physiological symptoms can then be attenuated by the introduction of something like a benzodiazepine. While it is true that placebo's can attenuate the symptoms (sometimes up to 30% of participants) it does not mean that a physiologic disorder in the brain is not present. All this would seem to indicate is that the mind can be controlled with 'suggestion' in some percentage of people. Regardess of whether a placebo or active drug has attenuated the symptoms, both modalities have treated the primary cause of the symptoms. So the idea that physiological problems in the brain do not exist, or are irrelevant, simply because a placebo can have the same outcome as an active drug (in SOME cases) just doesn't make sense. Thats my opinion.

I completely agree with you. However, I don't think you quite understood what I was saying. I have no doubt that physiological illnesses can be measured, my point is that MENTAL illnesses cannot, because mental in itself means "of the mind". The mind is not the brain, and therefore the mind cannot be measured.

[40plusnewbie]

How do you explain someone who cuts their own testicles off with a pair of sizzors and flushes them down their mother's bathroom toilet because one of the 'voices' he hears told him to?

I don't necessarilly disagree that, technically, mental illnesses don't exist. One of my favorite books is 'The Myth of Mental Illness' by Thomas Szasz.

I'm a social worker who work with adults diagnosed with major mental illness (i.e. schizophrenia, schizo-affective disorder, bi-polar disorder) and the cilents I work with have moderate or greater impairment on the scale of clients with such diagnoses.

I utilize the recovery model in my work with these patients and downplay/avoid discussion of the medical model as much as possible.

And BTW, brainscan's of people with such disorders have been taken and show dramatically different levels of activity, etc in certain area's of the brain compared to people with 'normal' brains.

And I can guarentee you that if you were to give a group of severely disturbed individuals diagnosed with schizophrenia placebo's instead of psychotropics you would see them wigging out big time within a matter of days. There is no doubt about this.

Medication is a tool, and often times a very useful tool. Medication has literally saved my life numerous times during my childhood. I do not believe in stigmatizing medications to treat symptoms that interfere with thinking and emotions any more than I believe in stigmatizing morphine used during surgery, or anabolic steroids during periods of no functional deficiency or medical need.

The medical model sucks, I have known that for 20 years. It 'stabilizes' patients, which in most cases leaves them in non functional semi zombi like states where skills they may have had wither away and opportunities to develop new life skills to improve their lives are actively discouraged by the government since these folks are put on SSI or Social Security for their 'mental disability'.
When your talking about your bread and butter, most people are going to go to great lenghts to protect that. So these people are effectively 'rewarded' and reinforced with cash and other subsidies such as housing and free medial care for 'being disabled'. Not exactly the type of economic climate that would promote positive and healthy change in these people's lives.

[DSM4Life]

OK, you're probably saying to yourself "this guy is fvckin' crazy, how could he say such a thing?", but hear me out. Maybe I can get you thinking.

Mental illnesses are illnesses of the mind, correct? They are not illnesses of the brain, because then that would be classified as a physiological illness. But where is the mind? Can we see, feel, touch, or even measure the mind? So therefore, how can something (the mind) that cannot be measured, have an illness?

Anxiety, depression, eating and personality disorders, phobias, etc...it's all bullsh*t. There have even been numerous studies done where people with "mental illnesses" were given placebo medications (sugar pills) thinking they were real drugs, and their problems were solved! They rid themselves of their "mental illness". Why? Because they never had a mental illness in the first place!

You can disagree with me all you like. But I just want you to think about it for a moment. If you cannot measure something, how can you say it has an illness?

I am sure you know more than all the doctor who have been through countless years of schooling

[GT2]

I am sure you know more than all the doctor who have been through countless years of schooling

I never claimed any of that. It was simply food for thought, Mr. Ignorance

[FallenWyvern]

You are focused on the causes and not the effects.

People are homeless and eat trash and talk to themselves. The effects are all that really matter and they can be measured.

It's no wonder that you can give a sugar pill to a crazy person and they are temporarily cured, they are crazy aren't they?

I hope you don't have any kids with any mental illness.

[Flagg]

What about people that suffer at the hands of torture, or pro longed exposure to warzones or domestic violence and develop massive psychological problems? Or are you going to say Post War Depression Syndrome is a disease of the body as well?

[Amorphic]

disagree. mental illness is a real phenominon. there are chemical reasons as well as emotional.

i have a background in psychology and i am almost done my social work degree. to argue that there is no such thing as diseases of the mind is ludacris.

medicalization is a bigger concern, perscription drug use is far too high, but make no mistake there are physiological abnormalities in the body/brain that do account for mental illness

[Bojangles69]

Mental illnesses are illnesses of the mind, correct? They are not illnesses of the brain, because then that would be classified as a physiological illness.

Mental illnesses are more response based. Physiological are more organization and causal based.

Low dopamine = biology/physiological state
Response = change of electrical activity in brain causing depressed emotions.

If you believe in words like happy, sad, or anxious, than you believe in mental illnesses which are extreme imbalances of these emotions.

If you don't believe in happy/sad/anxious than you are a robot.

[peachfuzz]

disagree. mental illness is a real phenominon. there are chemical reasons as well as emotional.

i have a background in psychology and i am almost done my social work degree. to argue that there is no such thing as diseases of the mind is ludacris.

medicalization is a bigger concern, perscription drug use is far too high, but make no mistake there are physiological abnormalities in the body/brain that do account for mental illness

yup yup

[peachfuzz]

Hamish&Andy, check this dvd out sometime. Think you would enjoy it

this will make you think....DONT WATCH IT!

[DSM4Life]

I never claimed any of that. It was simply food for thought, Mr. Ignorance

[Nitro29]

I didnt read all of this, but I would say the OP has a mental illness if he really believes this.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

Does PTSD exist?

Trust me, you are very, very, very wrong especially when it comes to anxiety/ phobias and such. This thread is so much full of shit it should be deleted...Nitro

[GT2]

This is hilarious. None of you have actually answered my question, but rather gone off on your own rant based on information which has always been the conventional way of thinking. My case is simple, how can something (the mind) that cannot be measured, have an illness? None of you have yet to directly respond to that.

Perhaps this idea is so against what you know/believe in, it is almost impossible for you to even consider the thought that what you know is WRONG. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I am simply asking a question, a question which none of you can answer.

[KingTenderloin]

we cant answer due to our own metal illnesses

[Amorphic]

This is hilarious. None of you have actually answered my question, but rather gone off on your own rant based on information which has always been the conventional way of thinking. My case is simple, how can something (the mind) that cannot be measured, have an illness? None of you have yet to directly respond to that.

Perhaps this idea is so against what you know/believe in, it is almost impossible for you to even consider the thought that what you know is WRONG. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I am simply asking a question, a question which none of you can answer.

you can measure serotonin uptake regulators and their effect on receptors in the brain. you can measure dopamine levels and use an MRI to look at electrical activity in the brain. they are all quantifyable, stop trying to be so philisophical....

the question has been answered, and its been answered with enough evidence to prove that mental illness is physiological.

[GT2]

we cant answer due to our own metal illnesses

Yet another person who can't face the facts

[GT2]

you can measure serotonin uptake regulators and their effect on receptors in the brain. you can measure dopamine levels and use an MRI to look at electrical activity in the brain. they are all quantifyable, stop trying to be so philisophical....

the question has been answered, and its been answered with enough evidence to prove that mental illness is physiological.

If mental illness is physiological, why does the word "mental" mean "of the mind?"...Shouldn't it mean "of the brain"?

[Amorphic]

If mental illness is physiological, why does the word "mental" mean "of the mind?"...Shouldn't it mean "of the brain"?

who cares where the root word came from. it has no relevance. go read an abnormal psychology textbook and you'll see there is more than enough evidence to prove whats been stated before.

even if mental means of the mind, the brain is still the cause of your mind so theres no argument in trying to play with words.

[KingTenderloin]

Yet another person who can't face the facts

sorry that was my Ganser syndrome talking

[GT2]

who cares where the root word came from. it has no relevance. go read an abnormal psychology textbook and you'll see there is more than enough evidence to prove whats been stated before.

even if mental means of the mind, the brain is still the cause of your mind so theres no argument in trying to play with words.

OK mate, that's your opinion, you're entitled to it

[DSM4Life]

[GT2]

DSM, I love the intellectual commentary you contribute to this board

[KingTenderloin]

DSM, I love the intellectual commentary you contribute to this board

lol, i always look at the thread if dsm has posted in it last.... i love his pics lol

[GT2]

lol, i always look at the thread if dsm has posted in it last.... i love his pics lol

Agree to disagree