Gonna buy a gat.

**sizerp** · 08-15-2009, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

I dont necessarily agree with that statement. The majority of gun owners and those who CCW will not go through the motions of becoming a B class USPSA shooter. More importantly, that should not really be a criteria for being able to protect yourself from bodily harm. Realistically, most people cannot afford to shoot nearly as many rounds as you do per year, and may have other hobbies or interests. Owning a firearm and having a CCW merely gives them a fighting chance if they are put in a situation which threatens their life. I wouldn't tell anyone not to carry because they haven't achieved X level of proficiency. I'd encourage people to practice as much as possible, and take courses when they are available and it is practical to do so.

Yeah I understand both sides of this argument. It just doesn't make sense for some fool to be carrying who has no skill, or limited skill/experience with shooting.

However, with proper practice and respect for the firearm, I don't see a reason not to carry.

**PistolPete33** · 08-15-2009, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

I dont necessarily agree with that statement. The majority of gun owners and those who CCW will not go through the motions of becoming a B class USPSA shooter. More importantly, that should not really be a criteria for being able to protect yourself from bodily harm. Realistically, most people cannot afford to shoot nearly as many rounds as you do per year, and may have other hobbies or interests. Owning a firearm and having a CCW merely gives them a fighting chance if they are put in a situation which threatens their life. I wouldn't tell anyone not to carry because they haven't achieved X level of proficiency. I'd encourage people to practice as much as possible, and take courses when they are available and it is practical to do so.

I'm not saying you need to compete but you should have a skill level equal to or greater than a B level USPSA shooter. I agree that most people that carry a gun won't shoot what I shoot in 1 year in their entire lifetime. I'm not saying you need to have a skill set where I'm at to carry but you should be very profecient with a firearm before carrying one. I teach people all the time and most can't safely draw their firearm from a holster in under 2 1/2 seconds. It's one thing to have a fighting chance by carrying a firearm but if you don't know how to operate it under stress you are doing yourself a disservice. We have cops that come to our practices all the time and some that are firearms instructors that can't even complete a course of fire effeciently. It's pretty scary.

When I first got my LTC years ago I carried right off the bat and looking back now I wasn't skilled enough to be carrying a firearm. If I ever needed to draw the firearm to defend myself I prob. would have caused more harm than good. If you don't know how to safely draw a firearms from a holster and hit 2 A zone hits on a target when not under stress in under 2 seconds you shouldn't be carrying a gun. There is a TON of responsibility when you're carrying and I see it all too often with people that carry all the time yet have TERRIBLE gun handling skills and even worse shooting skills. It's a FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY.

**quarry206** · 08-15-2009, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

I dont necessarily agree with that statement. The majority of gun owners and those who CCW will not go through the motions of becoming a B class USPSA shooter. More importantly, that should not really be a criteria for being able to protect yourself from bodily harm. Realistically, most people cannot afford to shoot nearly as many rounds as you do per year, and may have other hobbies or interests. Owning a firearm and having a CCW merely gives them a fighting chance if they are put in a situation which threatens their life. I wouldn't tell anyone not to carry because they haven't achieved X level of proficiency. I'd encourage people to practice as much as possible, and take courses when they are available and it is practical to do so.

don't take this as dis-agreeing with you, because i agree with the concept of what you are talking about...

but the issue is you would be ungodly surprised how many people can't hit a human size target at 7 meters. and since 7meters is the reactionary gap (the time in which u have no chance of pulling a weapon before somebody gets to you) . . I would say people do need to learn how to shoot

people need to know what a sight picture is, where and why center mass is best to aim at.. triger pull

and also the fact of the matter is in the heat of a deadly force incident ur heart will be racing to the point you will lose all fine motor skills, so if the pull of the weapon and aiming is not a gross motor skill by that point.. you have an extremely high rate of missing or even hitting somebody else..

**sizerp** · 08-15-2009, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by PistolPete33

I'm not saying you need to compete but you should have a skill level equal to or greater than a B level USPSA shooter. I agree that most people that carry a gun won't shoot what I shoot in 1 year in their entire lifetime. I'm not saying you need to have a skill set where I'm at to carry but you should be very profecient with a firearm before carrying one. I teach people all the time and most can't safely draw their firearm from a holster in under 2 1/2 seconds. It's one thing to have a fighting chance by carrying a firearm but if you don't know how to operate it under stress you are doing yourself a disservice. We have cops that come to our practices all the time and some that are firearms instructors that can't even complete a course of fire effeciently. It's pretty scary.

When I first got my LTC years ago I carried right off the bat and looking back now I wasn't skilled enough to be carrying a firearm. If I ever needed to draw the firearm to defend myself I prob. would have caused more harm than good. If you don't know how to safely draw a firearms from a holster and hit 2 A zone hits on a target when not under stress in under 2 seconds you shouldn't be carrying a gun. There is a TON of responsibility when you're carrying and I see it all too often with people that carry all the time yet have TERRIBLE gun handling skills and even worse shooting skills. It's a FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY.

Well said.

**irish_2003** · 08-15-2009, 11:34 AM

if you call a weapon a "gat" maybe you shouldn't own one then

**Cloe85** · 08-15-2009, 11:35 AM

there is a gun show in ft lauderdale today and tomorrow. war memorial. aud. 800NE 8th street... 9-5 today and 9-4 tomorrow.

**thegodfather** · 08-15-2009, 11:53 AM

I was not advocating that people with no experience what so ever should carry. I was only saying they don't need to be certified as a B class shooter. Practicing regularly is important as with anything. I'm fortunate enough to have my own land to practice on so I can do a variety of things. It is tough for people who goto a normal shooting range to practice drawing from the hip and firing, obviously because of the danger involved in doing that.

When I practice on my own land, I'll do a few sprints back and forth to get my heart rate up, start sweating, and then run back to the target area and start shooting. You do learn some valuable things, for instance when reloading, instead of releasing the slide with the thumb break, to just grab the top of the slide and pull it back so that it releases. However, I do not think that this kind of training is practical for most people because you can't run around the inside of a range, or draw at the hip and fire. More important than just going to the range to become a 'good shot,' I believe is to take a course in defensive shooting. Learning how to draw quick, shoot from the hip immediately, reload quickly, etc.

**PistolPete33** · 08-15-2009, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

I was not advocating that people with no experience what so ever should carry. I was only saying they don't need to be certified as a B class shooter. Practicing regularly is important as with anything. I'm fortunate enough to have my own land to practice on so I can do a variety of things. It is tough for people who goto a normal shooting range to practice drawing from the hip and firing, obviously because of the danger involved in doing that.

When I practice on my own land, I'll do a few sprints back and forth to get my heart rate up, start sweating, and then run back to the target area and start shooting. You do learn some valuable things, for instance when reloading, instead of releasing the slide with the thumb break, to just grab the top of the slide and pull it back so that it releases. However, I do not think that this kind of training is practical for most people because you can't run around the inside of a range, or draw at the hip and fire. More important than just going to the range to become a 'good shot,' I believe is to take a course in defensive shooting. Learning how to draw quick, shoot from the hip immediately, reload quickly, etc.

What you are describing is a USPSA stage. Most stages require you to run, almost always draw from a holster or table etc., you almost always have to reload during a course of fire, and you need to figure out the best way to shoot the stage. You perform this all while under stress of match tension etc. There isn't a better way to become profecient with a handgun. You should never be shooting from the hip though as you should always have a sight picture before you shoot. I'm hoping you mean drawing from the holster and not point shooting from the hip like they do on those TV programs. Practical shooting has evolved into what is most effecient with shooting and point shooting like that is never utilized.

What we see with newer shooters is that they are good at shooting groups when they go to the range. Then, you add in everything else and they can't even hit a USPSA target because they are so out of their element and are nervous. If you get nervous shooting at a piece of cardboard and can't hit the target at all what do you think is going to happen when someone is shooting back?

**sizerp** · 08-15-2009, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by irish_2003

if you call a weapon a "gat" maybe you shouldn't own one then

Yeah I know. You're the third person to voice their opinion in that regard. I have to agree, however it was just a thread title. I don't go around calling a pistol a gat... Just FYI LOL.

Originally Posted by Cloe85

there is a gun show in ft lauderdale today and tomorrow. war memorial. aud. 800NE 8th street... 9-5 today and 9-4 tomorrow.

Cool! I may have time to drive on over.

**sizerp** · 08-15-2009, 04:03 PM

Also, just a quick update -

I went back to the gun shop and changed my payment from the Glock 27 to the Glock 19. It felt much better in my hands... Can't wait to pick it up next week. Also, I signed up for a LTC course. It's like 7 hours, 4-5 classroom, and 2-3 hours on the range.

**TITANIUM** · 08-15-2009, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by sizerp

Also, just a quick update -

I went back to the gun shop and changed my payment from the Glock 27 to the Glock 19. It felt much better in my hands... Can't wait to pick it up next week. Also, I signed up for a LTC course. It's like 7 hours, 4-5 classroom, and 2-3 hours on the range.

The classes are easy and great to do.

I've had a lic for all lawful purpose since I was 21.(44 now).

I'm not going to get into the people that like guns, and people that hate them.

To each there own.

Glocks are ok, good self defense gun.

I like the M+P series myself.

Primary weapon to carry shouldn't be under a 9mm.

S+W 40 cal is popular with law enforcement.

I carry a 1911 in 45 acp.

I'm old school.

Good luck bro.

**subaruwrx04** · 08-15-2009, 04:29 PM

I have alot of pistols. I really like my glock model 27 and 30 out of all my pistols. Very reliable gun, light, dead accurate and just an all around great gun.

**sizerp** · 08-15-2009, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by subaruwrx04

I have alot of pistols. I really like my glock model 27 and 30 out of all my pistols. Very reliable gun, light, dead accurate and just an all around great gun.

Yeah they are pretty popular huh! Glad to hear your input, what other pistols do you own, and do you carry?

Originally Posted by TITANIUM

The classes are easy and great to do.

I've had a lic for all lawful purpose since I was 21.(44 now).

I'm not going to get into the people that like guns, and people that hate them.

To each there own.

Glocks are ok, good self defense gun.

I like the M+P series myself.

Primary weapon to carry shouldn't be under a 9mm.

S+W 40 cal is popular with law enforcement.

I carry a 1911 in 45 acp.

I'm old school.

Good luck bro.

Thanks! Yeah I used to be kinda against guns and shit, by my eyes are opened now... I am moving to back to Brooklyn as soon as I get off probate. Will feel more comfortable in my own home, and skin with a pistol on hand.

Also, who knows what's going to happen with this New World Order BS and Obama and his secret army.

**thegodfather** · 08-15-2009, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by PistolPete33

What you are describing is a USPSA stage. Most stages require you to run, almost always draw from a holster or table etc., you almost always have to reload during a course of fire, and you need to figure out the best way to shoot the stage. You perform this all while under stress of match tension etc. There isn't a better way to become profecient with a handgun. You should never be shooting from the hip though as you should always have a sight picture before you shoot. I'm hoping you mean drawing from the holster and not point shooting from the hip like they do on those TV programs. Practical shooting has evolved into what is most effecient with shooting and point shooting like that is never utilized.

What we see with newer shooters is that they are good at shooting groups when they go to the range. Then, you add in everything else and they can't even hit a USPSA target because they are so out of their element and are nervous. If you get nervous shooting at a piece of cardboard and can't hit the target at all what do you think is going to happen when someone is shooting back?

Not sure what you are referring to because I dont compete...You angle your gun side away from the target, pull the weapon out and angle the action away from your body, fire 2 rounds, take a step back bring the weapon to a full two handed position, and fire two more rounds center mass. I dont know if you are saying this method is ineffective, but the point is that in a real world situation where you are being attacked which will almost always happen within 3-5ft of you, you do not have the distance necessary to bring your weapon to a fully extended two handed position, and doing so would give your target the ability to grab your weapon. In this position, you are able to fire two rounds into the target, step back increasing the distance, and then fire an additional two rounds.

**TITANIUM** · 08-15-2009, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Not sure what you are referring to because I dont compete...You angle your gun side away from the target, pull the weapon out and angle the action away from your body, fire 2 rounds, take a step back bring the weapon to a full two handed position, and fire two more rounds center mass. I dont know if you are saying this method is ineffective, but the point is that in a real world situation where you are being attacked which will almost always happen within 3-5ft of you, you do not have the distance necessary to bring your weapon to a fully extended two handed position, and doing so would give your target the ability to grab your weapon. In this position, you are able to fire two rounds into the target, step back increasing the distance, and then fire an additional two rounds.

Rule of engagement are as follows:

In a self defense situation, this is what happens almost all of the time.

3 to five shots.

3 to five seconds.

in 3 to 5 feet.

And there seems to be 2 different firearm applications being talked about here in this thread.

Self defense and competing.

Proficiency is key in both.

**Charger527** · 08-15-2009, 05:32 PM

Why do you need a gun? Is it that bad in the states that you really think you need a gun?

**TITANIUM** · 08-15-2009, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Charger527

Why do you need a gun? Is it that bad in the states that you really think you need a gun?

Bro, there are neighborhoods so bad that you can walk out in the street, shoot a 12 Gage, and the cops won't even come!!!

People get shot, and the ambulances won't venture into the neighborhood.

NYC, DC, LA??????

I would be wearing Kevlar for Christ's sake!!!

**Charger527** · 08-15-2009, 06:19 PM

ok, in Aus no one carrys guns. I mean i have a rifle but its for hunting, but have never even thought of carrying any weapons with me. I guess is just alot safer over here lol.

**Charger527** · 08-15-2009, 06:22 PM

And laws make it very hard to get firearms, and its near impossable to get a permit to carry one, but there is no need too..

**sizerp** · 08-16-2009, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by TITANIUM

Bro, there are neighborhoods so bad that you can walk out in the street, shoot a 12 Gage, and the cops won't even come!!!

People get shot, and the ambulances won't venture into the neighborhood.

NYC, DC, LA??????

I would be wearing Kevlar for Christ's sake!!!

Yep! That is why. I grew up in and around NYC area, and it's true.

Also, Louisville has some tough parts in it.

I want a self-defense pistol mostly because I feel uncomfortable at times in my current living situation. I know that a gun isn't the primary solution, MOVING is... however for the time being, moving isn't an option for monitary reasons.

**PistolPete33** · 08-16-2009, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Charger527

And laws make it very hard to get firearms, and its near impossable to get a permit to carry one, but there is no need too..

There is no need for self defense??? HMMMM I feel sorry for you and your entire country. Come to a FREE COUNTRY... Things are much better here.

**Charger527** · 08-16-2009, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by PistolPete33

There is no need for self defense??? HMMMM I feel sorry for you and your entire country. Come to a FREE COUNTRY... Things are much better here.

Yeah, whats wrong with using your hands?

**PistolPete33** · 08-16-2009, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Charger527

Yeah, whats wrong with using your hands?

When you're faced with 3 or 4 thugs with knives or bats good luck with those hands of yours. I'll take the upper hand with a firearm.

In the U.S. our country is what it is because private citizens owned firearms and had the balls to stick up for what they believed in. Otherwise we wouldn't be living in such a great country today. It is because of everyday men with firearms that the U.S. is the U.S.

Other countries that are owned by the government and not responsibile enough to own firearms will never understand.

**thegodfather** · 08-16-2009, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by PistolPete33

When you're faced with 3 or 4 thugs with knives or bats good luck with those hands of yours. I'll take the upper hand with a firearm.

In the U.S. our country is what it is because private citizens owned firearms and had the balls to stick up for what they believed in. Otherwise we wouldn't be living in such a great country today. It is because of everyday men with firearms that the U.S. is the U.S.

Other countries that are owned by the government and not responsibile enough to own firearms will never understand.

To elaborate on what Pete just said...Guns are not just necessary to fight people with other guns. They also have an equalizing effect, hence why they used to be called "the great equalizer." I suppose in Australia a strong powerful man has never assaulted or killed an elderly grandmother? Well, suppose that were to happen, she can try to use her hands, but she is no match for the more powerful man who is bludgeoning her to death. She can call the police, but even if they were to respond in 5 minutes, she could be dead in seconds. Now, give that elderly grandmother a firearm, and she has taken away the advantage that the attacker has, which is size and strength, she now has a viable chance to defend her life and win against the bigger stronger man thats attempting to kill her. Now, imagine it was YOUR grandmother, would you want her to have that advantage against someone? Of course you would.

So I think that many people fail to realize that you dont just carry a gun to engage other people who might have guns, you use firearms in a variety of self-defense situations when the attacker(s) may not have a firearm at all, but may have some other advantage such as size, strength, or numbers as in Pete's example...

I would rather have my gun and not need it, than need it and not have it.

and remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away... It is ashame that your country thinks that all of you peasent citizens just aren't responsible enough to own a tool which can possibly save your life one day. Your government of course, knows whats best for you, so you better listen to them.

**DOM6** · 08-16-2009, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Cloe85

there is a gun show in ft lauderdale today and tomorrow. war memorial. aud. 800NE 8th street... 9-5 today and 9-4 tomorrow.

^^^^
Fuk that place, way over priced since obama took over

**sizerp** · 08-16-2009, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by DOM6

^^^^
Fuk that place, way over priced since obama took over

Yeah I never made it out unfortunately. My transmission gave out this afternoon, F!

It's going to be like 2Gs to fix. Sucka.

**Charger527** · 08-18-2009, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

To elaborate on what Pete just said...Guns are not just necessary to fight people with other guns. They also have an equalizing effect, hence why they used to be called "the great equalizer." I suppose in Australia a strong powerful man has never assaulted or killed an elderly grandmother? Well, suppose that were to happen, she can try to use her hands, but she is no match for the more powerful man who is bludgeoning her to death. She can call the police, but even if they were to respond in 5 minutes, she could be dead in seconds. Now, give that elderly grandmother a firearm, and she has taken away the advantage that the attacker has, which is size and strength, she now has a viable chance to defend her life and win against the bigger stronger man thats attempting to kill her. Now, imagine it was YOUR grandmother, would you want her to have that advantage against someone? Of course you would.

So I think that many people fail to realize that you dont just carry a gun to engage other people who might have guns, you use firearms in a variety of self-defense situations when the attacker(s) may not have a firearm at all, but may have some other advantage such as size, strength, or numbers as in Pete's example...

I would rather have my gun and not need it, than need it and not have it.

and remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away... It is ashame that your country thinks that all of you peasent citizens just aren't responsible enough to own a tool which can possibly save your life one day. Your government of course, knows whats best for you, so you better listen to them.

You make a good point, but if someone wants to kill you, they will. Guns or no guns. Now the sitiution which you are using as an example, does not happen very often over hear, not sure how it is over there. People arnt murdered everyday over here.

Im not trying to start an argument on which country is better, as that is a matter of opnion, im just saying that at this point in time there is no need for any average people to carry guns for self defence.

**DSM4Life** · 08-18-2009, 05:02 AM

I kill with kisses

**zimmy** · 08-18-2009, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Charger527

You make a good point, but if someone wants to kill you, they will. Guns or no guns. Now the sitiution which you are using as an example, does not happen very often over hear, not sure how it is over there. People arnt murdered everyday over here.

Im not trying to start an argument on which country is better, as that is a matter of opnion, im just saying that at this point in time there is no need for any average people to carry guns for self defence.

Yah...and I think that there is no reason for your average citizen to need his right of fair representation or freedom of speech. We should just take away all the rights because other people don't think it's necessary for THEM.

**PistolPete33** · 08-18-2009, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by zimmy

Yah...and I think that there is no reason for your average citizen to need his right of fair representation or freedom of speech. We should just take away all the rights because other people don't think it's necessary for THEM.

You bring up a great point. If you choose not to exercise your right of free speach, or your right to bear arms then that's fine for you. But, because YOU don't care for these rights why should everyone else have to give up their rights?

The more powerful the government gets the fewer rights that we have. How does that work?

**Charger527** · 08-19-2009, 12:50 AM

your missing the point, all i was asking is why you think you need a firearm? Does it make you feel safe? Im just trying to get an idea of what type of dangers you encounter or are worried about to carry one? I am not saying you shouldnt have the right to have them. I am pro firearms i love the things, but only use them for hunting and target shooting. Have never thought of needing one for self defence.

**sizerp** · 08-19-2009, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Charger527

your missing the point, all i was asking is why you think you need a firearm? Does it make you feel safe? Im just trying to get an idea of what type of dangers you encounter or are worried about to carry one? I am not saying you shouldnt have the right to have them. I am pro firearms i love the things, but only use them for hunting and target shooting. Have never thought of needing one for self defence.

Having a firearm while living in a neighborhood where I feel threatened on a daily basis... yeah I feel safer.

**thegodfather** · 08-19-2009, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Charger527

your missing the point, all i was asking is why you think you need a firearm? Does it make you feel safe? Im just trying to get an idea of what type of dangers you encounter or are worried about to carry one? I am not saying you shouldnt have the right to have them. I am pro firearms i love the things, but only use them for hunting and target shooting. Have never thought of needing one for self defence.

**thegodfather** · 08-19-2009, 01:36 AM

A robbery suspects family speaks out after their 16 year old son is killed while he attempted to rob a pharmacy at gun point. While its tragic that their 16 year old made very poor decisions, not a shred of blame belongs to the pharmacy worker for defending his life when he felt it was threatened. A 16 yr old can pull a trigger just as easily as a grown man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnxj4...eature=related

**sizerp** · 08-19-2009, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

A robbery suspects family speaks out after their 16 year old son is killed while he attempted to rob a pharmacy at gun point. While its tragic that their 16 year old made very poor decisions, not a shred of blame belongs to the pharmacy worker for defending his life when he felt it was threatened. A 16 yr old can pull a trigger just as easily as a grown man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnxj4...eature=related

Watch out for them pharmacists!

You can carry while at work, in a public place?