9/11 Science vs. Conspiracy Theories

[BJJ]

the WTC's were an inside job. theres so much inexplicable shit surrounding that day and every event connected that its undeniable. theres more facts(and theories of course) that make sense to debunk the governments story then to back it up. think about kennedy's assassination ...people just believe what theyve been told because its easier and more comfortable then finding your own answers..especially when they could potentially scare you.
bottom line is i dont think people can handle the truth. they dont want it, because it conficts with everything they stand for. imagine this broke loose right now. how every soldier would feel defending a country that attacked itself to create a fabricated threat and subsequently start a war in the interests of filling the pockets of a few rich assholes over the blood of the people who give thier lives as patriots for a country that took what they stood for and sold it(along with thier lives) to make a buck. a big buck at that.
how ****in huge was that run-on sentence eh....goddamn!
but seriously...how would the country respond to that? would america be strong enough to handle it? how the **** would it be handled?!?! how the ****, could anyone carry on respecting a system thats done them so wrong?

...and guess what, USA is not the only country where this kind of happenings succeed. The country is the worldwide.

[ranging1]

i disagree i do believe the governement set it up

not speaking scientifically

but politicaly and economically (since i am studying this atm)

if you have a look at the american economy history and politcal agendas u can see during these years before 9/11 the hastle they had with oil

u can also see the increasing trend in crude oil prices and the demand but the american economy

though these conspiracy theories are very convincing, and i do beleive them

lets have a weigh up the evidence


somehow the planes were able to make both buildings callapse

somehow the plane full of terrorists (which america knew about for a good few hours) were able to fly into NYC air space, without being shot down

somehow a random building close by callapsed next to the 2 towers

the government said that they needed to invade afganastan for this, becuase they knew if was afganastan terrorists

somehow the heat generated by the plane was able to make the building collapse in an implodeing fashion

half the facts in the investigation of the collapse of the towers was excluded

irconicaly at this time america needed oil, and was having disputes over controlling oil wells

i havent looked at the documentores marcus posted but im sure they can add to this list


ironically not long after america invaded afganastan they decided to invade iraq on claims of nuclear weapons who also ironically happens to have alot of oil well that america needed to control

now years later after its been shown clearly their are no nuclear weapons in iraq and never were any, and osama bin laden has been CLAIMED to be killed and sadam husain has been exectuted on video footage (which if you watch the person executed has distinct facial features different to saddam) america still remains in both countires

and their excuse? becuase they need to help maintain the peace

also it has now been proven that america recently has been using and hiring other rebelious groups to cause civil unrest in these countries to make it look like they are needed to stay in these countires

even more ironically is america utualises almost 40% of all its troops in these countries to guard the oil wells



wow, america really did get lucky, having those terrorists al kada (who they originally funded 5 billion dollars worth or training, weaponery etc to their organisation) bomb their iconic twin towers which when collapsed feel in a rather neat and tidy manner

i still cant believe people think it was the terrorists who did it

talk about self denial

[MotoXracer]

Yes please, since mathematics is not an opinion, how do you explain "numbers" which show those skyscrapers could not be molten in that way?

That wasn't a scientific study. Some lady with a infrared detector shows ONE shot of ONE building and he goes off on a tirade after that. The first plane hit floors 78-80, that's about 800 feet above ground and even the lady who took the shots said it was to hot to take good pictures.


"I recorded for awhile, then decided to see if I could take a thermal image. Due to the heat I was not able to get a temperature or even a good image, but I snapped two thermograms from ground level anyway."


Believe what you want, but I'm not going to take a You Tube video seriously that keeps comparing Bush to Hitler and keeps saying "bull shit" all the time.

[MayTryIt]

Good thread, I have watched the Zeitgeist Movie and many others...the people that will find the truth will find in on non-bias internet news sites. As gay as it sounds, the internet will be the system that lets other people know "Hey homie, we really dont want to kill you".

[Kibble]

Several things smell funny.

All conspiracy theories and BS aside (because people can debate about that all day) here is what it comes down to.

1. This is the most secure country in the world. We have google maps. What the hell do you think the gov. has? We can see a pimple on a persons ass.

2. We had a ton of knowledge and warnings prior to 9/11 and ignored them all.
3. Who would benefit more from 9/11? Some guys in caves, or the federal government with their patriot act and unwarranted wiretaps?

If the government reacted everytime a threat was made... then our military forces would be going crazy in martial law in America. There has been a Jihad on Western Society for decades. Maybe even centuries. Marcus, I cannot watch the videos, because YouTube is blocked at my work. But I will watch them when I go home.

A school can evacuate daily for bomb threats
A church can cancel services if a threat is made
A bridge can be closed if a threat is made...

But do you think that cities and capitols can be evacuated every time a threat is made? Hell no. Talk about mass confusion and paranoia. I am sure that if the governemt knew that those towers and pentagon were to be hit on those dates, certain individuals would have been evacuated. Why risk losing the Pentagon? The Trade Center? The White House?
If this was planned by the government, then why strike the most vital areas? Why would they not hit Times Square or Hollywood?

Think about it. You are the King of a castle. You want to stage a provoked attack to gain interest for action of war on an enemy. Now, would you attack your own castle walls? Or would you attack the villages surrounding?

I am going to stop because I didn't watch the videos. Out of respect of Marcus' thread, I will watch them and re-read the threads before I post anymore. But I seriously love these discussions

[Kibble]

no OP the government wasnt involved. Al quada even claimed responsible with a representative arguing against a conspiracist on a news channel.

Have to comment on this....

Insurgents are payed hefty amounts of cash to kill an American. I know this firsthand. Several insurgents claim responsibility when a US convoy is ambushed. So when 3,000 Americans died, it must have been a goldmine for the insurgent population. Of course everybody wanted to claim responsibility. It would give them that much more power and influence in their population

[marcus300]

If the government reacted everytime a threat was made... then our military forces would be going crazy in martial law in America. There has been a Jihad on Western Society for decades. Maybe even centuries. Marcus, I cannot watch the videos, because YouTube is blocked at my work. But I will watch them when I go home.

A school can evacuate daily for bomb threats
A church can cancel services if a threat is made
A bridge can be closed if a threat is made...

But do you think that cities and capitols can be evacuated every time a threat is made? Hell no. Talk about mass confusion and paranoia. I am sure that if the governemt knew that those towers and pentagon were to be hit on those dates, certain individuals would have been evacuated. Why risk losing the Pentagon? The Trade Center? The White House?
If this was planned by the government, then why strike the most vital areas? Why would they not hit Times Square or Hollywood?

Think about it. You are the King of a castle. You want to stage a provoked attack to gain interest for action of war on an enemy. Now, would you attack your own castle walls? Or would you attack the villages surrounding?

I am going to stop because I didn't watch the videos. Out of respect of Marcus' thread, I will watch them and re-read the threads before I post anymore. But I seriously love these discussions

Interesting points, I wonder if you change you mind or strengthen it after you watch the Doc's

[BJJ]

That wasn't a scientific study. Some lady with a infrared detector shows ONE shot of ONE building and he goes off on a tirade after that. The first plane hit floors 78-80, that's about 800 feet above ground and even the lady who took the shots said it was to hot to take good pictures.


"I recorded for awhile, then decided to see if I could take a thermal image. Due to the heat I was not able to get a temperature or even a good image, but I snapped two thermograms from ground level anyway."


Believe what you want, but I'm not going to take a You Tube video seriously that keeps comparing Bush to Hitler and keeps saying "bull shit" all the time.

I do not believe in BS either, that is why I use my brain to develop thoughts!

Once marcus asked me in my interview:
marcus300: If there is one thing in the world you could change, what would it be?
BJJ: Ignorance. (Those who rule us can keep doing that because ignorance is well spread-out).

You are the perfect example of those who I was referring to (no offence).

I am going to explain you now, why those sckyscrapers could not be molten in that way, apologizing for my English but I am not a native speaker:

The problem in itself is of a simplicity even disarming, especially for those who have an understanding of physics, enough a little. We just need to shape the free fall of a material body subject, in addition to the gravity, even to the resistance on the part of the material that surrounds the subject in question, so the air.

1&2 The material body p is dropped from a height L compared to the ground (equation of motion).
Where d = 9.8 m/s*s (the well-known acceleration of gravity) and k is a parameter called aerodynamic drag. In the case is k = 0 the solution is universally known.

3&4 A little less known is the solution to the [1] in the case in which the strength of the material (which may be a gas, a liquid or even a material in powder) is not negligible. To tackle the equation (which is of the second order and especially not linear due to the presence of the squared period) agrees reducing it to a system of two equations of the first order. The equation in unknown v is resolved in a classic way by separating the variables.

5 By integrating the [5] with the condition y(0)=L is finally obtained the solution.

6 At this point we need to specify something relatively to the constant k, which dimensionally is expressed in units 1/m. In any aerodynamic treaty you can find the formula that provides the aerodynamic drag (kg) of an object that moves in the air with speed v.
In which:
r, is the aerodynamic drag expressed in kg
ro=.125, is the density of air to share 0
sr, is the reference area in square metres
cd, is the coefficient of aerodynamic drag (typical value .2-.5]

7 From the time that in fall to constant speed the aerodynamic drag equals the weight of subject, with appropriate replacement in [6] it comes to the following value of k.

8 Since p the weight of subject in kg, assuming for simplicity sr = 1 square metre and cd = .5 (the subject is not efficient) for k it can be expected the result.

This means that for a subject with section equivalent of a square metre and heavy 30 kg is k = .01, while for a subject with the same section equivalent heavy instead 60 kg is k = .005.
Now, if we could go back in time and place ourselves on the last floor of one of the two towers [110 plans, 415 metres of height] and drop from there above three objects, the first very heavy, with very section aerodynamics, the second with one square meter section of 60 kg heavy, the third, with the same section and heavy 30 Kg; using the formulae found previously we obtain that:
the first object arrives to ground zero in 9.15 sec.
the second object arrives at ground zero in 12.75 sec.
the third subject arrives to ground zero in 15.55 sec.

- Let's see see now the movie of the collapse of the South tower. From the first moment of the collapse the last floor of the South tower has arrived to the ground in about 11 seconds. In other words just one or two seconds more than if he had been in conditions of free fall in a vacuum.

- Now the North tower. From the first moment of the collapse the last floor of the North tower has arrived at ground zero in about 15 seconds. The time of falling in this case was superior, but still comparable with the time of fall of an object in free fall hindered by the mere resistance of the air.

The official hypothesis (fall for domino effect or if you prefer effect pancake) has no meaning.
In this case, the time of fall of the towers had to be in the order of 98 seconds, not 11 or 15, but 98. The difference is certainly not negligible.

Let's see now in practical terms that things to me personally, I would like to know by supporters of the truth Journal. All the calculation now displayed served to prove without a doubt a given incontrovertible: the upper floors of the towers are precipitated experiencing the resistance of the only air. What I want to know is simple: as may have the core of steel of the towers volatilized instantly leaving the upper floors literally suspended in the air? That happens only and exclusively in controlled demolitions, when the explosives, detonating, destroy all the structures of support of the planes at the same time. In a spontaneous collapse, instead, of course they yield before the most damaged, and only after they yield also the other support facilities, which are found to have to bear excessive weight and ultimately collapse. This would have happened in particular in the case of the collapse of the South tower, which had been affected on the side, and not in the center, and it was therefore found itself with the support structures damaged in one hand and intact in the other, and is instead collapsed in perfect vertical way and in the space of just 11 seconds or so.
Fall time so short and collapse so accurate and are therefore vertical explained only admitting that there has been use of explosives in the collapse.

Hope I was clear but mostly UNDERSTOOD.

[DSM4Life]

I do not believe in BS either, that is why I use my brain to develop thoughts!

Once marcus asked me in my interview:
marcus300: If there is one thing in the world you could change, what would it be?
BJJ: Ignorance. (Those who rule us can keep doing that because ignorance is well spread-out).

You are the perfect example of those who I was referring to (no offence).

I am going to explain you now, why those sckyscrapers could not be molten in that way, apologizing for my English but I am not a native speaker:

The problem in itself is of a simplicity even disarming, especially for those who have an understanding of physics, enough a little. We just need to shape the free fall of a material body subject, in addition to the gravity, even to the resistance on the part of the material that surrounds the subject in question, so the air.

1&2 The material body p is dropped from a height L compared to the ground (equation of motion).
Where d = 9.8 m/s*s (the well-known acceleration of gravity) and k is a parameter called aerodynamic drag. In the case is k = 0 the solution is universally known.

3&4 A little less known is the solution to the [1] in the case in which the strength of the material (which may be a gas, a liquid or even a material in powder) is not negligible. To tackle the equation (which is of the second order and especially not linear due to the presence of the squared period) agrees reducing it to a system of two equations of the first order. The equation in unknown v is resolved in a classic way by separating the variables.

5 By integrating the [5] with the condition y(0)=L is finally obtained the solution.

6 At this point we need to specify something relatively to the constant k, which dimensionally is expressed in units 1/m. In any aerodynamic treaty you can find the formula that provides the aerodynamic drag (kg) of an object that moves in the air with speed v.
In which:
r, is the aerodynamic drag expressed in kg
ro=.125, is the density of air to share 0
sr, is the reference area in square metres
cd, is the coefficient of aerodynamic drag (typical value .2-.5]

7 From the time that in fall to constant speed the aerodynamic drag equals the weight of subject, with appropriate replacement in [6] it comes to the following value of k.

8 Since p the weight of subject in kg, assuming for simplicity sr = 1 square metre and cd = .5 (the subject is not efficient) for k it can be expected the result.

This means that for a subject with section equivalent of a square metre and heavy 30 kg is k = .01, while for a subject with the same section equivalent heavy instead 60 kg is k = .005.
Now, if we could go back in time and place ourselves on the last floor of one of the two towers [110 plans, 415 metres of height] and drop from there above three objects, the first very heavy, with very section aerodynamics, the second with one square meter section of 60 kg heavy, the third, with the same section and heavy 30 Kg; using the formulae found previously we obtain that:
the first object arrives to ground zero in 9.15 sec.
the second object arrives at ground zero in 12.75 sec.
the third subject arrives to ground zero in 15.55 sec.

- Let's see see now the movie of the collapse of the South tower. From the first moment of the collapse the last floor of the South tower has arrived to the ground in about 11 seconds. In other words just one or two seconds more than if he had been in conditions of free fall in a vacuum.

- Now the North tower. From the first moment of the collapse the last floor of the North tower has arrived at ground zero in about 15 seconds. The time of falling in this case was superior, but still comparable with the time of fall of an object in free fall hindered by the mere resistance of the air.

The official hypothesis (fall for domino effect or if you prefer effect pancake) has no meaning.
In this case, the time of fall of the towers had to be in the order of 98 seconds, not 11 or 15, but 98. The difference is certainly not negligible.

Let's see now in practical terms that things to me personally, I would like to know by supporters of the truth Journal. All the calculation now displayed served to prove without a doubt a given incontrovertible: the upper floors of the towers are precipitated experiencing the resistance of the only air. What I want to know is simple: as may have the core of steel of the towers volatilized instantly leaving the upper floors literally suspended in the air? That happens only and exclusively in controlled demolitions, when the explosives, detonating, destroy all the structures of support of the planes at the same time. In a spontaneous collapse, instead, of course they yield before the most damaged, and only after they yield also the other support facilities, which are found to have to bear excessive weight and ultimately collapse. This would have happened in particular in the case of the collapse of the South tower, which had been affected on the side, and not in the center, and it was therefore found itself with the support structures damaged in one hand and intact in the other, and is instead collapsed in perfect vertical way and in the space of just 11 seconds or so.
Fall time so short and collapse so accurate and are therefore vertical explained only admitting that there has been use of explosives in the collapse.

Hope I was clear but mostly UNDERSTOOD.

Your not the only smarty pants here :

[BJJ]

Your not the only smarty pants here :

[The Deuce]

I knew that it was a Controlled DEMO the second I saw it.. Hahaha, TAKE A WILD GUESS WHAT MY UNCLE DOES FOR A LIVING.. Yah you GUESSED it.. he primarily took down Old Vegas Casinos... Some Water Towers.. and even Silo's... w/ a few other random odds and ends.. and EVERY YEAR LIKE CLOCK WORK, he would bring over a DVD of the previous years work.. NO HE DIDN'T OWN THE COMPANY.. But he was the Explosive's Guy... anyways... when I saw the Towers fall I knew.. I knew right then and there that it wasn't caused by a plane hitting it.. I had seen SO MANY BUILDING CONTROLLED DEMOLISHED that I knew the WTC was Bombed along with being hit with planes... now whether or not it was a government cover up or if they were in on it... THAT'S A WHOLE 'NOTHER STORY ALTOGETHER !!

It's just a Little bit ODD that a Skyscraper that wasn't HIT with a Plane fell inward.. just like I saw in all my Uncle's video's... what makes it even more like WTF !?! Is that that building housed divisions of the CIA, FBI, ATF, DEA, and NSA ... ONE OF THE MOST SECURE BUILDINGS IN THE COUNTRY... Aside from the Pentagon.

But it sure did make for a GOOD way to get the PATRIOT ACT into effect didn't it??

It sure did make going to war now didn't it??

Regardless.. I do not think the whole truth will ever come out.. it could.. but i don't see it happening...

[Flagg]

He's trying to be funny.

[BJJ]

He's trying to be funny.

I see...
but then he should have written smart aleck!

[Flagg]

I should re-read your interview again BJJ, are you a mathematician?

Im starting to think that maths is the only real truth there is.

[BJJ]

I should re-read your interview again BJJ, are you a mathematician?

Im starting to think that maths is the only real truth there is.

Yes I am, I took my degree in advance of two years.

[BJJ]

... and yes, at least in our dimension, math is the very real truth.
Math is there when you wake up and stand up from the bed and follows you throughout the day.
The bad thing is, it is not visible and therefore underestimated by the majority of the people.
This is why many still believe those skyscrapers went down because of those aircrafts!

[Flagg]

... and yes, at least in our dimension, math is the very real truth.
Math is there when you wake up and stand up from the bed and follows you throughout the day.
The bad thing is, it is not visible and therefore underestimated by the majority of the people.
This is why many still believe those skyscrapers went down because of those aircrafts!

Not to derail the thread, maybe we'll talk more via PM, but what do you think of Hawkings TOE?

[BJJ]

Not to derail the thread, maybe we'll talk more via PM, but what do you think of Hawkings TOE?

He does not believe it anymore, after having considered the Godel's theorem, he concluded that there was not even one TOE obtainable.
The Godel's theorem implies that pure mathematics and physics are inexhausible. No matter how many problems are solved, there will always be other problems that may not be solved with the existing rules.
Hawkings changed his mind in 2004 also regarding the black holes... because of the quantum theory.

[Odpierdol_sie!]

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[Odpierdol_sie!]

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[Odpierdol_sie!]

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[youngerlion]

also it takes some ridiculous heat that would never have been present as stated in the movies and is well known to those who critically think to totally incinerate the planes; especially the massive engines and somehow a passport flew out intact and the boxes survived this astonishing and impossible amount of heat supposedly present. people love to hate though. as some of our members have proven to me (i will refraim from saying any names but one has a moose as his symbol.). lets just go kill all " terrorists" and you know only Muslims are terrorist. last statement was pure sarcasm but has been the mentality of many.

[youngerlion]

Check out the small hole made before the collapse of the pentagon area supposedly hit by an enormous boeing 787 that incinerated into nothing and left one engine in distinguishable order. just lying there unattached to the disappearing airplane.

[MotoXracer]

Fall time so short and collapse so accurate and are therefore vertical explained only admitting that there has been use of explosives in the collapse.

Hope I was clear but mostly UNDERSTOOD.

Your post just proved that the floors below the impact site had little to no resistance to the falling floors above them. No one is debating that, but to make the assumption that it MUST be explosives is a stretch. In cases of static and dynamic loading, materials act very differently. The top floors on each tower both broke off and fell as an independent block. When they broke and hit the floors below them, they had a force of over 30 times their weight, and no building has that much redundancy built in, so they just fell right through it.

Here is my You Tube evidence (if there is such a thing) a controlled example of how it happens. Notice there is no big explosion to set it off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJLm5...eature=related

Believe me or not, it doesn't matter.

[samoth]

Your post just proved that the floors below the impact site had little to no resistance to the falling floors above them. No one is debating that, but to make the assumption that it MUST be explosives is a stretch.

Yeah, it's been debated all throughout internetland, never without a horribly sufficient lack of engineering and materials facts.

To counter: from another thread years ago: http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf

All we can really know is that no layperson possesses all the facts of the case, and certainly no basic freshman-level integral is the solution proving massive world-wide conspiracy. Is it really that difficult for people to cognize the complexity of a system of the size in question? I mean, a renown journal-published thousand-page peer-reviewed treatise might be convincing, but all the basic internet debates are kinda over-reaching at best...

[BJJ]

No offense but I am taking this to be a slight bit of plagiarism on your behalf since i have seen something very similar in an IFE report released in the wake of 9/11.

First, you accuse me of plagiarism and then you say no offense?... coherent you are.

Second, for your info I wrote those calculations in about 10'.

I started my post writing "The problem in itself is of a simplicity even disarming" because by simply using the equation of motion and the acceleration of gravity value, a person can easily calculate what I figured out.
You do need to have a degree in mathematics for doing that, the high school knowledge is enough, at least here in Europe.

Also, you write you saw something similar in the past so this means you did not see anything equal! Your statement of plagiarism annuls itself.

PS
Before judging my work, were you even able to eleborate those calculations by yourself?

[BJJ]

Your post just proved that the floors below the impact site had little to no resistance to the falling floors above them. No one is debating that, but to make the assumption that it MUST be explosives is a stretch. In cases of static and dynamic loading, materials act very differently. The top floors on each tower both broke off and fell as an independent block. When they broke and hit the floors below them, they had a force of over 30 times their weight, and no building has that much redundancy built in, so they just fell right through it.

Here is my You Tube evidence (if there is such a thing) a controlled example of how it happens. Notice there is no big explosion to set it off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJLm5...eature=related

Believe me or not, it doesn't matter.

I am very sorry but your sentence "believe me or not, it doesn't matter" makes no sense to me. You speak from others' words not your own, first. So, in case I should believe others, surely not you.
Second, you have no idea what you are talking about and the video you posted just prove that.

So, I do not believe in those who report others' words without being able to elaborate those words by themselves. Clear?
I believe in my thoughts unless someone shows me I am wrong with real facts, so numbers.

[Odpierdol_sie!]

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[JimInAK]

Ive just watched these 2 videos and its was fascinating, there is some great evidence, when you have time please watch them and tell me what you think and your views on the 9/11 conspiracy theories

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PawC4u1U7k
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG6i6...eature=related

I believe these videos represent solid (and simple) scientific theories. However, the fix is in and most people either still buy whatever the "official" line is or are afraid to say anything that would threaten their position in society.

I believe that the first time my government lied to me, was the Warren Commission's lone gunman theory in the assassination of President Kennedy. They have routinely lied multiple time since then, to achieve their goal of growing the industrial-military complex, which removes billions of dollars from our economy monthly.

The result of removing Kennedy was the major buildup of troops in Vietnam, when Kennedy would have likely resisted our large scale entry into the war.

The result of the 911 tragedy was the further loss of constitutional rights, and the huge increase in the exercise of government power over the people, in addition to the justification for the war in Iraq, to save America from the dictator that our government placed there... it's the same story repeated over and over again.

Our government manipulates public opinion through the control of information and through the patriotic fervor whipped up by those who greatly profit from their successful expansion of our war efforts worldwide.

The sad part is that no one, nowhere, has the courage and power to effectively stand up to these criminal manipulations of truth, that are used to control public opinion for personal and corporate gain.

I have been a journeyman union pipefitter, college educated in petroleum technology, although I am not a mechanical engineer. The theory laid out by the videos seems quite plausible to me.

Jet fuel does not produce a high enough temperature to melt steel without an accelerant. This is a FACT.

However, I can cite dozens of serious lies by our government throughout my lifetime to justify wars, so I am no longer objective. Our political system is corrupt and the people lack resolve to do anything about it.

It's a truly sad situation...

[marcus300]

I believe these videos represent solid (and simple) scientific theories. However, the fix is in and most people either still buy whatever the "official" line is or are afraid to say anything that would threaten their position in society.

I believe that the first time my government lied to me, was the Warren Commission's lone gunman theory in the assassination of President Kennedy. They have routinely lied multiple time since then, to achieve their goal of growing the industrial-military complex, which removes billions of dollars from our economy monthly.

The result of removing Kennedy was the major buildup of troops in Vietnam, when Kennedy would have likely resisted our large scale entry into the war.

The result of the 911 tragedy was the further loss of constitutional rights, and the huge increase in the exercise of government power over the people, in addition to the justification for the war in Iraq, to save America from the dictator that our government placed there... it's the same story repeated over and over again.

Our government manipulates public opinion through the control of information and through the patriotic fervor whipped up by those who greatly profit from their successful expansion of our war efforts worldwide.

The sad part is that no one, nowhere, has the courage and power to effectively stand up to these criminal manipulations of truth, that are used to control public opinion for personal and corporate gain.

I have been a journeyman union pipefitter, college educated in petroleum technology, although I am not a mechanical engineer. The theory laid out by the videos seems quite plausible to me.

Jet fuel does not produce a high enough temperature to melt steel without an accelerant. This is a FACT.

However, I can cite dozens of serious lies by our government throughout my lifetime to justify wars, so I am no longer objective. Our political system is corrupt and the people lack resolve to do anything about it.

It's a truly sad situation...

Good logical post, do you want to expand on the case's were the USA Goverment have lied in the past

[kalspic]

how do you propose to change the government?

[TITANIUM]

I watched both Marcus.

I knew it was a controlled demolition that day.

Sorry about the whole incident in general, but it was done to do two things.

First was to punch through the Patriot act which essentially says that we have no Constitution in the US anymore.(goggle that one).

Second, it was meant to scare people into a panic stricken hysteria.

What was born from that? Homeland Security.

Governmental Control.

Look up "looses Change" on you tube.

If you don't believe in conspiracy theories now, you will after watching those.

They are lengthy in nature, but extremely interesting.

The way it was told to myself was, what is 3,000 people worth compared to 50, 000+ soldiers in the south east Asia conflict?(Vietnam).

It was done for control and power.

Fear is a potent tool used to win wars, never mind this.

This would have done better in the news section, but it seems to be rolling along here pretty good.

And besides, I love having my sh*t gone through at the airports.

It's not like it's invasion of privacy or anything, Right?

Where is BgMc?

He'll chime in on my post menstrual rant at some point!LOL

Best

T

[marcus300]

I watched both Marcus.

I knew it was a controlled demolition that day.

Sorry about the whole incident in general, but it was done to do two things.

First was to punch through the Patriot act which essentially says that we have no Constitution in the US anymore.(goggle that one).

Second, it was meant to scare people into a panic stricken hysteria.

What was born from that? Homeland Security.

Governmental Control.

Look up "looses Change" on you tube.

If you don't believe in conspiracy theories now, you will after watching those.

They are lengthy in nature, but extremely interesting.

The way it was told to myself was, what is 3,000 people worth compared to 50, 000+ soldiers in the south east Asia conflict?(Vietnam).

It was done for control and power.

Fear is a potent tool used to win wars, never mind this.

This would have done better in the news section, but it seems to be rolling along here pretty good.

And besides, I love having my sh*t gone through at the airports.

It's not like it's invasion of privacy or anything, Right?

Where is BgMc?

He'll chime in on my post menstrual rant at some point!LOL

Best

T

Ive just watched 911 loose change and there is some serious solid evidence in that film, thanks T.

If and it is a big IF what they say is right on these theories and films, there must of been a load of people involved in planning and executing this kind of operation, so how have they silenced so many people, surely one or two of these people would have some kind of heart to tell the world what really happened???

[JimInAK]

Good logical post, do you want to expand on the case's were the USA Goverment have lied in the past

The biggest whopper, that clearly demonstrates that the government will NEVER be help accountable for crime against the people (without fundamental change), regardless of the severity of the criminal acts perpetrated was exposed by San Jose Mercury's investigative reporter Gary Webb's series of newspaper articles called the "Dark All iance".

It might be interesting to note that Mr. Webb, whom I regard as a genuine American hero, was found dead from TWO gunshot wounds to the head in 2004, which the coroner's office judged a suicide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

He proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Nicaraguan Contras used cash from cocaine sold in the US, which CIA-sanctioned Nicaraguan drug smugglers flooded the inner cities of America with, which was the start of the crack epidemic. We are talking tons of cocaine and hundreds of millions of dollars.

It doesn't get much dirtier than this and the CONFIRMED CRIMES either committed by agents of, or sanctioned by, and ignored by our government... the crimes are huge beyond measure. In essence, the US government started the US crack cocaine epidemic (this is no an understatement) and he proved it to the world.

President Bush's "weapon of mass destruction" lie, that justified the Iraqi War represents standard operation procedure for our leaders.

Here's a typical example:
Generally, our leader will "market" the conflict with euphemisms such "Operation Just Cause" for the invasion of Panama. Their justifications were:
(1) Safeguarding the lives of U.S. citizens in Panama.
(2) Defending democracy and human rights in Panama.
(3) Combating drug trafficking.
(4) Protecting the integrity of the Torrijos-Carter Treaties.

In reality, what they did is went in there and took out Noriega, and put in someone who would be more friendly to the US. Nothing was really threatened and nothing changed.

Eisenhower was right when he warned us about the industrial-military complex. We spend half of all the money spent on war on this planet, which costs us over $500 million per year.

As long as the population is willing to ignore the crimes and buy the excuses, it will all continue. It's unfathomable to imagine how much this country would benefit, if this tremendous wealth was spent on anything productive. And that kind of money buys a lot of enemies, which defeats the purpose of the whole effort anyway.

[marcus300]

The biggest whopper, that clearly demonstrates that the government will NEVER be help accountable for crime against the people (without fundamental change), regardless of the severity of the criminal acts perpetrated was exposed by San Jose Mercury's investigative reporter Gary Webb's series of newspaper articles called the "Dark All iance".

It might be interesting to note that Mr. Webb, whom I regard as a genuine American hero, was found dead from TWO gunshot wounds to the head in 2004, which the coroner's office judged a suicide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

He proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Nicaraguan Contras used cash from cocaine sold in the US, which CIA-sanctioned Nicaraguan drug smugglers flooded the inner cities of America with, which was the start of the crack epidemic. We are talking tons of cocaine and hundreds of millions of dollars.

It doesn't get much dirtier than this and the CONFIRMED CRIMES either committed by agents of, or sanctioned by, and ignored by our government... the crimes are huge beyond measure. In essence, the US government started the US crack cocaine epidemic (this is no an understatement) and he proved it to the world.

President Bush's "weapon of mass destruction" lie, that justified the Iraqi War represents standard operation procedure for our leaders.

Here's a typical example:
Generally, our leader will "market" the conflict with euphemisms such "Operation Just Cause" for the invasion of Panama. Their justifications were:
(1) Safeguarding the lives of U.S. citizens in Panama.
(2) Defending democracy and human rights in Panama.
(3) Combating drug trafficking.
(4) Protecting the integrity of the Torrijos-Carter Treaties.

In reality, what they did is went in there and took out Noriega, and put in someone who would be more friendly to the US. Nothing was really threatened and nothing changed.

Eisenhower was right when he warned us about the industrial-military complex. We spend half of all the money spent on war on this planet, which costs us over $500 million per year.

As long as the population is willing to ignore the crimes and buy the excuses, it will all continue. It's unfathomable to imagine how much this country would benefit, if this tremendous wealth was spent on anything productive. And that kind of money buys a lot of enemies, which defeats the purpose of the whole effort anyway.

I believe it was suicide or that what that link stated in your post,

Very interesting article, I will do some reading on the subject, thanks

[Mooseman33]

also it takes some ridiculous heat that would never have been present as stated in the movies and is well known to those who critically think to totally incinerate the planes; especially the massive engines and somehow a passport flew out intact and the boxes survived this astonishing and impossible amount of heat supposedly present. people love to hate though. as some of our members have proven to me (i will refraim from saying any names but one has a moose as his symbol.). lets just go kill all " terrorists" and you know only Muslims are terrorist. last statement was pure sarcasm but has been the mentality of many.

are u kidding me..
please keep my name out of ur mouth, you dont like me and i have a deep hatred for you.
it should stay there, no need to run into different threads and be a scumbag by typing shit.

[JimInAK]

how do you propose to change the government?

The very least a person must do is vote... and too few people take the time to do so, and many fewer make an informed decision about who they are voting for.

Beyond that, you could get involved in a party that you support or an issue, if your state has the initiative process.

Much has been changed through the initiative process, which only works when the politicians refuse to do the will of the people. It's a very powerful political tool for change, used by activists in the western states.

[TITANIUM]

Ive just watched 911 loose change and there is some serious solid evidence in that film, thanks T.

If and it is a big IF what they say is right on these theories and films, there must of been a load of people involved in planning and executing this kind of operation, so how have they silenced so many people, surely one or two of these people would have some kind of heart to tell the world what really happened???

The government here knows it leaked out.

They actually account for that, as it divides people's thinking on the subject.

It's a psychological aspect to this also.

People just live in there bubbles in life and can't tie there own shoes, never mind ever believing that the govement would do harm against the people on US soil.

There have been rallies around DC and NYC about this plot being an inside job.

You just don't see it on prime time biased news.

Check out the "Drudge Report".(Google it).

Interesting reading and Intel there.

Only in America!

Best

T

[Flagg]

The very least a person must do is vote... and too few people take the time to do so, and many fewer make an informed decision about who they are voting for.

Beyond that, you could get involved in a party that you support or an issue, if your state has the initiative process.

Much has been changed through the initiative process, which only works when the politicians refuse to do the will of the people. It's a very powerful political tool for change, used by activists in the western states.

Sadly this is a no win situation as people have been brain washed into thinking all they can do is vote red or blue. Its the same in the UK as it is in the US and both parties are as corrupt, self centered and greedy as the next. The Liberal Democratics aren't much better which leaves you with the Green Party which no one will ever take seriously.

It will seriously take a mass revolution of the West to change the way things are now.

[Deltasaurus]

I've seen them before. I believe it was purely government involvement to get people to submit; to keep them in fear, of their own safety.

People will give up liberties for securities. It's sad. What's sadder is we know that this is a load of bullshit, and we do NOTHING.

As long as people have NFL Football and American Idol, nothing will ever be done about this.

This is true, Bunch of sheep and the apple is rotten at the core so it will be very difficult to do anything about this until people stop worshiping their celebrity chocolate jesus.

its sad but true