American Capitalism is failing.

[kojak_x]

I wanted to point out a great article on CBS News website from a 60 Minutes broadcast.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6220282.shtml

First off I want to point out that Im looking at this as the "big picture"

Now it seems to me that this is another perfect example of American style capitalist government failing to due its duty. It bothers me to a great deal that people are getting rich and nothing is getting done. 7 Billion dollers, 8 1/2years later and nothing has been done due to bureaucracy. Absolutely Unbelievable. Where the hell did this 7 Billion dollers go. Jesus christ almighty the skyscrapers could of been built already. What the hell is the matter with these people. I believe if you look at history this keeps reminding me of the roman empire. Very Sad. You need to get the corperations out of controling and running the counrty. America needs banking regulations and control. Free markets are failing. The reason I get so upset is because everything Canada implements similer to America things get worse and worse for the middle class. From privitization of electricity, to medical to trade. I hope the best for all Americans but I just can't see a bright future in the next 50 years for America or Canada if we follow your ways.

[lovbyts]

It because Capitalism has turned more to Socialism so instead of anyone being able to become wealthy with the right attitude and determination it's more only the rich get richer and control the fate of the rest of us.

The 7 billion did not just disappear just like in every major city the millions/billions spent on nothing getting down and being taken from tax payers someone is getting it be sure of that, it's just not us.

[thegodfather]

So apparently you don't check threads that you've posted in. So I will bring my reply here to this thread instead. I'm getting a little bit perturbed at the assertion that American 'capitalism' is failing, because this country does not practice pure capitalism, and there has not been what would resemble a free market in this country since 1913. Anyway, please read and respond to my points. You quite clearly lack a fundamental understanding of the American political system and basic economic principles which have been proven through empirical fact. For instance, the fact that Keynesian economics has been proven a blatant failure time and time again, yet you assert in your original post that America "needs" banking regulations. On a side note, why don't we let the Americans decide what they "need," after all I am not telling Canada that they "need' health care reform.

Originally Posted by kojak_x View Post

If you ask anyone not american they will say your whole government is screwed up. Everyone knows it in the entire world. A 100% Capitalist government breeds nothing but greed and everyone for themselves. Your whole banking system is a complete farce. Corporations run the government.

Your statement might have made sense if the United States was in fact a "100% Capitalist government." However, the United States is nowhere close to being what would be called a pure capitalist society. The Federal Reserve fixes interest rates, meaning they are artificially manipulated and set. In a true capitalist society, interest rates would be determined by competition among lenders and banks. There are numerous other examples, such as anti-trust legislation, etc, and so forth. In a true capitalist society, anti-trust legislation is not needed because there will always be another business enterprise which will enter the market to disrupt the monopoly that develops. Many people point to the business practices of Wal-Mart who strong arms their vendors into giving them products sometimes below cost, and sells products at such a low cost that other smaller businesses cannot compete and then they go under. Well, if that is the case, then who wins in that scenario? The consumer does, because they are getting the cheapest product possible. Critics say at that point, Wal-Mart could raise prices outrageously and price gouge, but in a true capitalist society, if Wal-Mart were to hypothetically do that, a new business would come into town to compete and steal the market share by offering that product at a reasonable price. Pure capitalism works, it was just never given a chance in this country. Unfortunately, politicians have always felt the need to "do something" and interfere with the free market in some way. In other cases, strong lobby groups like unions were able to pressure government officials to interfere with the free market in order to secure their own profits. Some people wrongly assume that the big corporations in America would love to have a pure capitalist system, and that is patently false. In a pure capitalist system everyone is competing on an even playing field. In our current US system of quasi capitalism, big businesses have insulated themselves from the free market through various legislation.




I feel so sorry for the people losing there homes it almost makes me want to cry. Im not even American. People who were about to retire have nothing from the thieves on wallstreet, and what does your govenment do.

Once again, you clearly have not studied the housing bubble crisis, or the bailout well enough to understand what you are talking about. The housing crisis was CREATED by government, when the George Bush set about a policy of "encouraging home ownership." Refer to the aforementioned, the Federal Reserve set interest rates artificially low, and additionally set standards for lenders to issue no doc loans(loans that do not require documentation such as pay stubs, tax returns, and proof of collateral). This was essentially during the time of pushing for "sub prime mortgages." What happens in this situation is that the government creates a situation where lenders start to make loans they really cannot afford to loan, they make very risky loans to people who may or may not be able to pay back those loans, or afford them at all. It is essentially, mal investment, the market was doing things that it could not handle, and all we saw by the housing crisis was the market attempting to correct itself. And while many people lost their houses, it was not all the governments fault, NOR the lenders.

In many cases, people took it upon themselves to lie about their income, or to take ARM loans (Adjustable Rate Mortgages, where you pay ONLY the interest on the total amount you have borrowed for a set period of time 3 or 5, and even up to 7 years). So in a lot of cases, people took home loans they realistically could not afford, and then expected the government to come to their aid, when it is not the governments job to do that. In addition, lenders who made loans they could not afford, thought they should be bailed out by government, and that ALSO is not the governments job. Homeowners deserved to loose houses in situations where they borrowed more than they could afford, and lenders&banks who made loans they could not cover deserved to go out of business for their risky and irresponsible banking practices. In the end, homeowners who borrowed more than they could afford would learn to live within their means, and banks who delivered a bad product to consumers would be out of business, and those who practiced responsible lending would be rewarded with more business and less competition.



They give them billions of dollers so they can keep getting outrages bonuses. It makes me sick that nobody is doing anything about it. The rich control everything while the middle class gets eliminated and the poor really suffer.

That's really a very inaccurate blanket statement. It's not necessarily the "rich," but elite families, of which there are about 10,000 who belong to this group. There was a study done on this topic, they go to the same ivy league schools, work at the same companies, and marry within their upper echelon elite groups. However, in a capitalist society people are free to earn as much as they can. The only reason there is an issue about the bonuses, is because government money (aka Taxpayer money) was handed to these corporations, and at that point the people have a vested interest in salaries. However, in a pure capitalist society the ability to earn a limitless income is what drives innovation and advancement in all sectors of the economy, this is an indisputable empirical fact proven throughout history. The middle class is hit very hard by some of the practices of this government, but it is not just Republicans, it is the so called "liberal" Democrats as well who punish the middle class for being successful, raising taxes for instance. Also, it is a common misconception among people in foreign countries who believe in liberal Democracies, that the "rich" are somehow evil and to blame for all the ills of a shrinking middle class and the troubles of the 'poor.' We find that however, when there is an incentive for the "rich," both the middle class and poor are rewarded because the 'rich' are able to create more jobs, and pay higher salaries, this in turn translates to higher standards of living for both the middle class and the poor. What happens when you start to tax the rich at outrageous rates? They reduce jobs, or move factories overseas, in an effort to protect their incomes. So it does not benefit anyone to do this, however it seems to make sense in the illogical minds of liberals, who do not rely on facts or logic to make their policies, but on "feel good" rhetoric and emotions.


All your jobs are in China. 50 years of fighting communism and now your making China the new empire of the world. Vietnam war with over much to many dead to fight the commies and now your sending jobs over there because its even cheaper labor then China all the while you have the largest unemployment rate in god knows how long.

Not quite sure where you are even trying to go with this statement? While it is a hypocritical position for America to trade with China, and have an embargo on Cuba, it is really just a matter of practicality. China has things we want, and Cuba doesn't, tough shit. I do not agree with the situation, I see no reason the people of Cuba should suffer because of their government, but that is neither here nor there. Who has benefited from China becoming a major producer of cheap goods? Well the world for one, but most of all the consumers in America have benefited. They want products at very cheap rates, and therefore have created a huge market for these products from China. Globalization benefits EVERYONE in the long run, if it is allowed to progress. Free unfettered trade across all borders results in products at their lowest cost possible. For instance, in Europe, there is a law under the European Union, which insulated farmers across Europe from foreign importation of agricultural goods by levying high tariffs on those products, making it hard for farmers in Africa for instance, to compete. If this program was lifted, it would provide more money for African countries than all of the foreign aid money across the world combined. However, Europe would rather protect and insulate its own farmers than allow this to happen. They are not quite the epitome of altruism as many people outside of the US portray the European Union to be, huh?




Don't get me wrong, I love the american people, and Im sure I speak for 99% of Canadians. It just truly makes me sad to see whats going on and nothing being done about it. I wish every hard working American nothing but the best, and i hope I haven't offended anyone. I don't know even close to all the facts. But I can tell you my common sense tells me your country has huge problems (Im thinking big picture here) and unless somethings really start to change.

A lot of countries have huge problems, like the fact that it takes 6 months for some people to get an MRI in your country. And the fact that a larger and ever increasing number of Canadians are visiting the United States to receive medical care because they are put on long waiting lists in Canada. I suppose that is the 'price' of getting things for 'free.' Health care policy in the United States and in other countries is a topic which I have studied and written reports on in great detail. I can tell you, that the two-tier system of health care in your country is disturbing at best. The national health care system, filled with the lesser skilled doctors (excluding the talented ones who stay because of an altruistic calling to be paid less than they are worth) for the common person, and then the most talented doctors who opt out of your national health care system and take cash only for their services for the rich people. I mean, that seems like something quite disparaging that I would be concerned about. So no country is without its major issues. I would not speak on any other issue in your country, simply because I have not studied it in any great detail, so perhaps you should afford us the same courtesy, and not speak somewhat offensively about topics with which you have not studied in great detail, as you admitted previously.


Im scared to see how one of the most wonderful countries in the world will be in 50 years.

[lovbyts]

thegodfather,
Obviously you are very passionate about this and you put up a good logical argument with clear points. Good man.

[kojak_x]

I did check that thread but only one person posted and I thought nobody else would, so I left it alone. I have to say thats a great reply by the way, You made some great points. I do disagree with some of the things you said. and should reply to them but I would be writing a book if I did, and frankly you said that I should let Americans decide what best for American's right.

All Im saying more or less is that what happens in your country affects mine and the rest of the world. So its in everyone's interest that you guys do well. Im just frustrated that things are not moving faster in the right direction. I don't believe is hope, hope is not going to feed you and so on....action is what gets things done, real things need to get done. I suppose under the circumstances things could be alot worse.

[Tesla]

This is not a failure of capitalism. The problems we are facing today are a direct result of excessive government intervention in the free markets. The housing bubble was created because government bureaucrats (Democrats and Republicans alike) forced creditors to make loans to people who otherwise should not have qualified for a loan.....in an effort to put more people in housing. This is how bubbles are made. This really is econ 101 though.

[Kratos]

I wanted to point out a great article on CBS News website from a 60 Minutes broadcast.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6220282.shtml

First off I want to point out that Im looking at this as the "big picture"

Now it seems to me that this is another perfect example of American style capitalist government failing to due its duty. It bothers me to a great deal that people are getting rich and nothing is getting done. 7 Billion dollers, 8 1/2years later and nothing has been done due to bureaucracy. Absolutely Unbelievable. Where the hell did this 7 Billion dollers go. Jesus christ almighty the skyscrapers could of been built already. What the hell is the matter with these people. I believe if you look at history this keeps reminding me of the roman empire. Very Sad. You need to get the corperations out of controling and running the counrty. America needs banking regulations and control. Free markets are failing. The reason I get so upset is because everything Canada implements similer to America things get worse and worse for the middle class. From privitization of electricity, to medical to trade. I hope the best for all Americans but I just can't see a bright future in the next 50 years for America or Canada if we follow your ways.

Can you please make your statements more vague and generalized.

How can you expect people to take your opinion on fiscal matters seriously when you aren't even capable of forming an argument.

Your news story...I went through it real quick, but I can not for the life of me figure out what you are going on about.

The article seems to clearly state to me that the project is in limbo largely because of the port authority clogging up the construction site, overbearing gvmt that can't make up it's mind, extreme regulations, and too many opinions on how things should be.

For god sake, the NYPD insisted that an ass load of granite be removed and elevated 200ft in the air perched on a concrete bunker cause it might be hit by a truck bomb, so they had to start over.

If you want to use that article as an example of anything except proof the gvmt is the problem not capitalism (except maybe toilet paper) you really have a lot of explaining to do. The term capitalist gvmt in the context doesn't even make sense. Is the port authority making a profit? No, they're fvcking it up for free.

Where did the money go?
IDK, you tell me...after all this is your freakin example.
Was it paid to contractors and architects and materials that are on site as we speak...or did the money fall into the hands of some unethical business man, or maybe bribes to inspectors and politicians. The problem is you don't fvcking know. You don't know where things went wrong, how they could have been done better. How capitolism was somehow responsible. You don't even pretend to have a theory.

[Kratos]

From privitization of electricity, to medical to trade. I hope the best for all Americans but I just can't see a bright future in the next 50 years for America or Canada if we follow your ways.

First of all we out-rank you in GDP per capita.

and second there you go again not making a point, spewing crap and thinking you're someone of importance entitled to an opinion without any facts...you're not God, if you're going to make a point include at least one fact.

You aren't saying I think dogs are better then cats. (that would be an opinion)
You're saying I know how to run the world better, and I know I'm right, people should listen to me and see it my way.

Ok tell me why...

show me examples of what has happend to electricity in Canada, why they did it, and how it's bad...and if there is any good you should state that as well.

Tell me a story of electricity, what the problem is and how you could make it better. Not just...man, electricity is freakin expensive, I bet those fat cats are getting rich off me, fvckin capitolism. That's called stupidity, and stupid people don't get to be taken seriously in political arguements.

Tell the whole story about medical...like people are maybe wanting a private option so they don't have to wait for surgery and it's expensive. The public option is shitty, but I don't feel like breaking out my check book. Or maybe you have some other point...my point is you didn't make it, you aren't God, so if you have a point make it. Otherwise don't expect to convince people of your point of view, or lie to yourself into thinking you deserve to have one.

[Kratos]

I did check that thread but only one person posted and I thought nobody else would, so I left it alone. I have to say thats a great reply by the way, You made some great points. I do disagree with some of the things you said. and should reply to them but I would be writing a book if I did, and frankly you said that I should let Americans decide what best for American's right.

All Im saying more or less is that what happens in your country affects mine and the rest of the world. So its in everyone's interest that you guys do well. Im just frustrated that things are not moving faster in the right direction. I don't believe is hope, hope is not going to feed you and so on....action is what gets things done, real things need to get done. I suppose under the circumstances things could be alot worse.

"I do disagree with some of the things you said"

Ok, what...what the f is rolling around in your mellon.
I mean, you start these vague threads, which take almost no effort btw to start...someone puts out a big effort to talk to you about the subject you wanted to talk about, and you can't be bothered with a reply.

"real things need to get done"
fvcking profound...you should be the next president of the united canamerica.

I don't have a personal problem with you or anything. But...c'mon, seriously, is anybody home. You're the one wanting to talk about this stuff and putting it out there. If you don't know much of anything when it comes to politics, finance, or whatever subject...then stick to talking about weather an 8.5 foot snow plow is better then a 9ft or whatever subject you have a weath of knowledge on.

[Kratos]

thankyou for your time
and if you wish to present facts, I'll be happy to respond in a friendly and polite manor.
like I said, it's not personal

[lovestospooge23]

It because Capitalism has turned more to Socialism so instead of anyone being able to become wealthy with the right attitude and determination it's more only the rich get richer and control the fate of the rest of us.

The 7 billion did not just disappear just like in every major city the millions/billions spent on nothing getting down and being taken from tax payers someone is getting it be sure of that, it's just not us.

lovbyts that post makes no sense about socialism... socialism is basicly a democratic form of communism so it would be the rich whom suffered while the poor and working class gained from it.

[MuscleScience]

lovbyts that post makes no sense about socialism... socialism is basicly a democratic form of communism so it would be the rich whom suffered while the poor and working class gained from it.

Maybe you should ask the Russian people if that were true.

[lovestospooge23]

Maybe you should ask the Russian people if that were true.

the russian people were under a communist government an extreme facist form of, and the only rich that benefited in communiest russia was the communist party, so socialism does benefit the poor and working class

[MuscleScience]

the russian people were under a communist government an extreme facist form of, and the only rich that benefited in communiest russia was the communist party, so socialism does benefit the poor and working class

Kratos, TheGodFather... what do you guys think of this?

[Kratos]

Kratos, TheGodFather... what do you guys think of this?

I think our gvmt run education system is churning out people with a poor understanding of economics.

The differences between communism and socialism are difficult to define.
More difficult to define would be the benifits of socialism, and why socialism would create a greater level of prosperity.

Many would agree Russia was communist, however it was out of the evoloution of socialism and socialist ideals.
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)

[lovestospooge23]

I think our gvmt run education system is churning out people with a poor understanding of economics.

The differences between communism and socialism are difficult to define.
More difficult to define would be the benifits of socialism, and why socialism would create a greater level of prosperity.

Many would agree Russia was communist, however it was out of the evoloution of socialism and socialist ideals.
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)

communism is a corrupt and facist form of socialism

[Kratos]

the only rich that benefited in communiest russia was the communist party, so socialism does benefit the poor and working class

please explain how socialism attains that key difference and how power is not further concentrated within the central government.

the idea socialism benefits the poor in working class is based on false ideas that economic resources are finite. It turns the poor and working class into a powerful voting base / parasitic class. This is all done through envy of weath and desire to possess the wealth through redistribution.

Is greed based in the bottom of society no less greedy?

The greatest amount of prosperity has historically been created though free enterprise. A smaller peice of a bigger pie can still equal more prosperity for the poor and working class.

What we have is a mixed system...socialism and capitalism, as do almost all western nations. The balance of the mix is often the subject of debate. I think you'd be had pressed to defend total socialism or come up with a prosperious example of it's exsistance.

[Kratos]

communism is a corrupt and facist form of socialism

all forms of communism and or socialism are corrupt
No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any such definition.

In fact the differences between communism and socialism have nothing to do with the level of corruption, nor is it defined as a facist form of socialism.

karl marx never fully defined how a communist economy would function.

[thegodfather]

Marx believed that a pure communist government could only arise out of the a capitalist society. He believed that society would go through three basic stages. First there would be capitalism, and when worker mistreatment became so terrible world wide, he believed there would be a mass working class uprising which overthrew the government. Next would be socialism, he felt that this was an integral step in achieving a pure communist government. However, only AFTER a society was capitalist, then socialist, could it ever achieve what Marx would call a pure communist society. The fact that countries such as Cuba, China, and Russia, all tried to implement Communist government through armed revolutions, meant that in Marx's eyes, they would never achieve the true definition of Communism, because by his definition, a society would have to experience capitalism and a mass worker revolt, followed by a period of socialist governance. So the forms of communism that you see in China, Cuba, and Russia were merely bastardized versions of Marx's ideals. For anyone to claim to know what the true definition is, would be absurd unless you are the reincarnate of Karl Marx.

Moving on...Fascism is a very loosely defined term, with some roots in Conservatism, it is hostile to change in some facets of government, yet it latches onto "technology" as part of its ideology in moving forward. It's a very interesting ideology to understand, but not one that is easily definable. There is really a lot of misinformation in this thread and before people go spouting off about political ideology's they know nothing about, I can recommend some good books to read so that you'll actually sound like you know what your talking about.

Anyways moving forward. In America we do not have a "pure capitalist" society. We have a mix of capitalism, with heavy regulations, and a mass amount of social welfare programs (you can refer to this as socialist, but it in no way implies that the government itself is socialist, it just adopts some principles). It is essentially a hybrid. It is also not, as some people wrongly describe it, a "Democracy." In pure Democracy, it is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of society oppresses the other 49%(read: Aristotle). We have what is called a representative Republic, whereby we cast votes for elected leaders, who cast votes on our behalf. But we also have a system of laws which no "VOTE" of any kind can ever overturn. Such as the Bill of Rights. For instance, if 51% of the population favored eliminating the 1st amendment, it would be impossible to do so because it would be deemed unconstitutional by the SCOTUS(Judicial Branch). So, just a brief background on the American system and what it IS and IS NOT. Im going to the gym, peace...

[Hoggage_54]

[Kratos]

Marx believed that a pure communist government could only arise out of the a capitalist society. He believed that society would go through three basic stages. First there would be capitalism, and when worker mistreatment became so terrible world wide, he believed there would be a mass working class uprising which overthrew the government. Next would be socialism, he felt that this was an integral step in achieving a pure communist government. However, only AFTER a society was capitalist, then socialist, could it ever achieve what Marx would call a pure communist society. The fact that countries such as Cuba, China, and Russia, all tried to implement Communist government through armed revolutions, meant that in Marx's eyes, they would never achieve the true definition of Communism, because by his definition, a society would have to experience capitalism and a mass worker revolt, followed by a period of socialist governance. So the forms of communism that you see in China, Cuba, and Russia were merely bastardized versions of Marx's ideals. For anyone to claim to know what the true definition is, would be absurd unless you are the reincarnate of Karl Marx.

Moving on...Fascism is a very loosely defined term, with some roots in Conservatism, it is hostile to change in some facets of government, yet it latches onto "technology" as part of its ideology in moving forward. It's a very interesting ideology to understand, but not one that is easily definable. There is really a lot of misinformation in this thread and before people go spouting off about political ideology's they know nothing about, I can recommend some good books to read so that you'll actually sound like you know what your talking about.

Anyways moving forward. In America we do not have a "pure capitalist" society. We have a mix of capitalism, with heavy regulations, and a mass amount of social welfare programs (you can refer to this as socialist, but it in no way implies that the government itself is socialist, it just adopts some principles). It is essentially a hybrid. It is also not, as some people wrongly describe it, a "Democracy." In pure Democracy, it is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of society oppresses the other 49%(read: Aristotle). We have what is called a representative Republic, whereby we cast votes for elected leaders, who cast votes on our behalf. But we also have a system of laws which no "VOTE" of any kind can ever overturn. Such as the Bill of Rights. For instance, if 51% of the population favored eliminating the 1st amendment, it would be impossible to do so because it would be deemed unconstitutional by the SCOTUS(Judicial Branch). So, just a brief background on the American system and what it IS and IS NOT. Im going to the gym, peace...

I think we are in total agreement.
Thanks for going in to greater detail.

[thegodfather]

I think we are in total agreement.
Thanks for going in to greater detail.

Lol...yea dude, I'd love to see someone point out a fascist government, or give me a working definition for it. One of my favorite empty buzz words used by Neo-Cons is "Islamo facist extremism..." I would love to know who made that up, or exactly what that is...

[Kratos]

Lol...yea dude, I'd love to see someone point out a fascist government, or give me a working definition for it. One of my favorite empty buzz words used by Neo-Cons is "Islamo facist extremism..." I would love to know who made that up, or exactly what that is...

lol...well if I were to break it down, they were looking for a sensational way to say: religious nuts with a political agenda willing to use any means of violence.

but in an effort to sound smarter, they created a statement totally historically inaccurate .

[lovbyts]

Above all post is why I HATE to talk about politics or get involved 99.99% of the time. To much thinking. LOL