Obama on healthcare bill

[Kratos]

You crazy, they make assholes full of money. Alot of the drugs are made over seas and then the US pharmacy fight for the patents in court. This summer Ill go down and take a pic of the guy who owns Pfizer yacht, $150 million dollars, its called perfect prescription.

http://powerandmotoryacht.zeroforum....othread?id=242

seems the boat nerds can't agree on who owns it
what makes you think it has anything to do with pfizer besides the rumor?

[bigpapabuff]

who knows if it will work or not, I am sure there will be some good and some bad, I am very impressed he was able to get it passed. Many people have tried and never got close.

[Dreamteam]

HmmM

[xero]

As a non-US member observing from a distance, I get the impression, and I may be stating the obvious here, but the essence of this debate lies in two opposing views:

- the strongly capitalist approach i.e. the free market alone must drive health care - if you are a good citizen (read successful) in playing the whole capitalist game, then you have the most advanced health care system in the world (profit driven incentive for R&D) AND you have access to it (only the strong survive)

vs.

- The humanists view whereby life is not all about "survival of the fitest" - we are not animals so being human is also about the importance of looking after the weaker members (and animals) of a society, even if (you think) you are a better human in the the capitalistic race to acquire riches and "stuff". In other words, one be willing and happy to give up some of your "hard earned" money to help someone who is weaker (or in a weaker position) than yourself.

So it seems to me, no matter how technical this debate may become, the bottom line is that it is about those that "have" (no doubt "hard earned") being bitterly opposed to jointly helping the "have not's" (the lazy bums, leeches, no-goods...)

Both views pose difficult problems:

Providing "too much" health care welfare will no doubt encourage and stimulate "opportunists" to take advantage thereby placing a significant and unfair additional burden on those members of society that produce.

By contrast, if the health care system is based on the current model, too many people who are credible members of society simply cannot afford access to even basic health care, let alone advanced. Too many unnecessary deaths and suffering.

The answer lies somewhere in between these two views.

[Kratos]

]. Too many unnecessary deaths and suffering.

].

where are the bodies?

[xero]

where are the bodies?

come on Kratos, you're not seriously asking this??

"Tactic 26:1 -- When something happens that paints your viewpoints in a negative light, immediately deny it outright.
Tactic 26:2 -- When outright denial fails, demand an unrealistic amount of proof.
Tactic 26:3 -- When denial fails, switch to the conspiracy theory.

TM & © 1999-2004 Carl Rove & Dick Cheney"

[Kratos]

According to whom?

It would seem people don't have a problem asking for me to provide proof of my claims. Sure it's fine to question things I say without any evidence what I'm saying is false. But everyone else should just be able to make claims and not back them up. I almost always respond with evidence.

come on Kratos, you're not seriously asking this??

"Tactic 26:1 -- When something happens that paints your viewpoints in a negative light, immediately deny it outright.
Tactic 26:2 -- When outright denial fails, demand an unrealistic amount of proof.
Tactic 26:3 -- When denial fails, switch to the conspiracy theory.

TM & © 1999-2004 Carl Rove & Dick Cheney"

So now I'm demanding an unrealistic amount of proof. You said too many people dying and suffering. Well, show me that it's true. Show me that people are dying in America from lack of care at a higher rate than x country or y country. If there is enough evidence for you to form an opinion on the subject, you should be able to share it. Otherwise your claims are nothing but assumption with no basis except your own bias.

[Kratos]

Richard Kronick of the University of California at San Diego’s Department of Family and Preventive Medicine, an adviser to the Clinton administration, recently published the results of what may be the largest and most comprehensive analysis yet done of the effect of insurance on mortality. He used a sample of more than 600,000, and controlled not only for the standard factors, but for how long the subjects went without insurance, whether their disease was particularly amenable to early intervention, and even whether they lived in a mobile home. In test after test, he found no significantly elevated risk of death among the uninsured.

turning 65--i.e., going on Medicare--doesn't reduce your risk of dying. If lack of insurance leads to death, then that should show up as a discontinuity in the mortality rate around the age of 65. It doesn't. it's hard to measure, because of course as elderly people age, their mortality rate starts rising dramatically. But still, there should be some kink in the curve, and in the best data we have, it just isn't there.

[Kratos]

The Canadian Medical Association Journal reports that in one year, 71 Ontario patients died while waiting for coronary bypass surgery and over one hundred more became “medically unfit for surgery.” The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation reports that “109 people had a heart attack or suffered heart failure while on the waiting list. Fifty of those patients died.”

The BBC reports that “up to 500 heart patients die each year while they wait for potentially life-saving surgery.” The Times reports that a British woman “will be denied free National Health Service treatment for breast cancer if she seeks to improve her chances by paying privately for an additional drug.”

Medicaid and Medicare. Doctors are five times more likely to refuse seeing new Medicaid patients than privately-insured patients. Increasing reimbursement rates won’t help much; more than two-thirds of doctors reported being overwhelmed by Medicaid’s billing requirements, paperwork, and delays in payment.

If you call 911 in america, somebody's gonna come help you insurance or not

There are many county, state and federal programs to treat the indigent. No one has to "just die".

[xero]

It would seem people don't have a problem asking for me to provide proof of my claims. Sure it's fine to question things I say without any evidence what I'm saying is false. But everyone else should just be able to make claims and not back them up. I almost always respond with evidence.




So now I'm demanding an unrealistic amount of proof. You said too many people dying and suffering. Well, show me that it's true. Show me that people are dying in America from lack of care at a higher rate than x country or y country. If there is enough evidence for you to form an opinion on the subject, you should be able to share it. Otherwise your claims are nothing but assumption with no basis except your own bias.

If one child has died (or unnecessarily suffering) simply because the parents can not afford access to readily available medical technology that could have prevented this, then that one case is enough evidence of a problem.

I am not sure that it is useful to the debate to ask for evidence of this nature when it is so glaring obvious that in any capitalistic-based society there are people who are clearly marginalized from the system - whether that be the health care system or the justice system - simply on the basis that they do not have the economic means. Beacuse of this there is undoubtedly unnecessary suffering or even death.

My point was that from a humanists perspective, the stronger members of a society may have a responsibility, as humans, to endeavor to support the weaker members. Obviously those that do not see themselves as humanists will battle to understand this.

[Hazard]

First of all..... Every hospital is required to treat you, BY LAW, even if you don't have insurance or can't pay for your treatment. Saying that our system now is leaving people to die is just false.....

~Haz~

[Kratos]

If one child has died (or unnecessarily suffering) simply because the parents can not afford access to readily available medical technology that could have prevented this, then that one case is enough evidence of a problem.

I .

very touching appeal to emotions rather then facts
if we can save just one child...I need my box of tissues

state Children's health insurance program look it up
68.7 percent of newly uninsured children were in families whose incomes were 200 percent of the federal poverty level or higher. 6.6 million children covered. If a parent cares enough to fill out the paperwork.

Obama just re-uped it in 2009 to add 4 million more and prego women.

[JDawg1536]

Richard Kronick of the University of California at San Diego’s Department of Family and Preventive Medicine, an adviser to the Clinton administration, recently published the results of what may be the largest and most comprehensive analysis yet done of the effect of insurance on mortality. He used a sample of more than 600,000, and controlled not only for the standard factors, but for how long the subjects went without insurance, whether their disease was particularly amenable to early intervention, and even whether they lived in a mobile home. In test after test, he found no significantly elevated risk of death among the uninsured.

turning 65--i.e., going on Medicare--doesn't reduce your risk of dying. If lack of insurance leads to death, then that should show up as a discontinuity in the mortality rate around the age of 65. It doesn't. it's hard to measure, because of course as elderly people age, their mortality rate starts rising dramatically. But still, there should be some kink in the curve, and in the best data we have, it just isn't there.

If that's the case, then nobody needs health insurance. Why do the health insurance companies even exist?

[Kratos]

If that's the case, then nobody needs health insurance. Why do the health insurance companies even exist?

protecting your finances
why do life insurance companies exist? you're gonna die anyway
why car insurance? it won't stop an accident

[xero]

very touching appeal to emotions rather then facts
if we can save just one child...I need my box of tissues

state Children's health insurance program look it up
68.7 percent of newly uninsured children were in families whose incomes were 200 percent of the federal poverty level or higher. 6.6 million children covered. If a parent cares enough to fill out the paperwork.

Obama just re-uped it in 2009 to add 4 million more and prego women.

Makes no difference whether it is a child or an adult. To many, a human life, no matter what their financial situation or their race/social disposition, is valuable.

My key point remains, which you have not commented on, the humanistic view is that in advanced society, those that have more (for whatever reason) should care for the weaker (for whatever reason) members of that society.

Quoting Warren Buffet: "If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent."

[Hazard]

Makes no difference whether it is a child or an adult. To many, a human life, no matter what their financial situation or their race/social disposition, is valuable.

My key point remains, which you have not commented on, the humanistic view is that in advanced society, those that have more (for whatever reason) should care for the weaker (for whatever reason) members of that society.

Quoting Warren Buffet: "If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent."

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

You are guaranteed these things..... but notice the word "Pursuit" - It doesn't guarantee happiness..... just that you can "pursue" it. What if I grew up in an extremilly poor familly..... and I work my ass off to get ahead in life. Now i'm a millionare and you expect me to take care of those who don't work as hard as me? Why should I support men and women who choose to not work and to sell drugs instead?

Yeah there are those exceptions where people have had bad luck and end up on their ass..... but if i went broke ass poor and didn't have health insurance (which i currently don't btw) I wouldn't expect ANYONE to support me.....

~Haz~

[JDawg1536]

protecting your finances
why do life insurance companies exist? you're gonna die anyway
why car insurance? it won't stop an accident

What good are your finances when you're dead?

[JDawg1536]

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

You are guaranteed these things..... but notice the word "Pursuit" - It doesn't guarantee happiness..... just that you can "pursue" it. What if I grew up in an extremilly poor familly..... and I work my ass off to get ahead in life. Now i'm a millionare and you expect me to take care of those who don't work as hard as me? Why should I support men and women who choose to not work and to sell drugs instead?

Yeah there are those exceptions where people have had bad luck and end up on their ass..... but if i went broke ass poor and didn't have health insurance (which i currently don't btw) I wouldn't expect ANYONE to support me.....

~Haz~

So you think hard work equates to being a millionaire?

What about trust-fund babies? I've known plenty of them who don't work for $hit. Can we take their health benefits away?

[Hazard]

What good are your finances when you're dead?

I think he meant that you're protecting your finances from accidents. A rusty nail in the foot.... a gash in your arm that requires stitches..... stuff that wont kill you but still costs you money. This would be why you still need insurance.....

~Haz~

[Hazard]

So you think hard work equates to being a millionaire?

What about trust-fund babies? I've known plenty of them who don't work for $hit. Can we take their health benefits away?

No thats what I was saying..... there are exceptions for everything. But where does it say that because i'm wealthy - i need to take care of those less fortunate?

-You have people who work hard and come from nothing to make millions.....

-you have those born into millions.....

-you have lottery winners.....

-You have those born into poverty.....

-you have those who choose to not work or try to get out of poverty.....

-you have those that have money but lose it all.....

There are a thousand circumstances..... why should one person be responsible for taking care of another when every person is guaranteed the same rights?

~Haz~

[xero]

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

You are guaranteed these things..... but notice the word "Pursuit" - It doesn't guarantee happiness..... just that you can "pursue" it. What if I grew up in an extremilly poor familly..... and I work my ass off to get ahead in life. Now i'm a millionare and you expect me to take care of those who don't work as hard as me? Why should I support men and women who choose to not work and to sell drugs instead?

Yeah there are those exceptions where people have had bad luck and end up on their ass..... but if i went broke ass poor and didn't have health insurance (which i currently don't btw) I wouldn't expect ANYONE to support me.....

~Haz~

I understand where you are coming from on this and i cant argue your point "you expect me to take care of those who dont work as hard as me". Touches on ones fundamental primitive instincts to prevent freeloaders abusing you.

The problem is that there is a portion of any society who cannot lift themselves to the economic levels where basic health care is an option. The reasons could be anything from low IQ, type B personality, mental or physical disabilities, orphaned, old age, plain old poor life decisions....the reasons are many.

Should we disregard them because of the freeloaders?

[J-Dogg]

We spend 680 BILLION a year on our military.

And we are complaining about taking care of sick people who can't afford to do so themselves?

Mind you, I just paid 32k in income taxes in West Michigan, so I'm one of the guys who is helping pay.

But I'd much rather that money go towards some health care for americans, than go toward the 12 billion we spend weekly in Iraq.

I think people are loosing sight of where our tax money really goes.

[J-Dogg]

I understand where you are coming from on this and i cant argue your point "you expect me to take care of those who dont work as hard as me". Touches on ones fundamental primitive instincts to prevent freeloaders abusing you.

The problem is that there is a portion of any society who cannot lift themselves to the economic levels where basic health care is an option. The reasons could be anything from low IQ, type B personality, mental or physical disabilities, orphaned, old age, plain old poor life decisions....the reasons are many.

Should we disregard them because of the freeloaders?

I don't want to tute my own horn, but I'm one of the hardest working people I know. I honestly work at least 10 hours minim per day.

But I'm self employed, and I don't even have coverage for myself. I can't justify the $170 bi-weekly payment. While I make good money, I'm 28 years old and healthy and also, still a growing company.

I have equity in real estate, and insurance that covers me while at work. If something happens outside of that, I've decided to extract equity rather than pay $350 a month.

For me, it's risk vs. reward and so far the risk has saved me about 30k.

[xero]

We spend 680 BILLION a year on our military.

And we are complaining about taking care of sick people who can't afford to do so themselves?

Exactly.

Why is it ok to pay billions year after year to sustain a questionable war in Iraq, but not ok uplift the health care for the nations people?

[JDawg1536]

I don't want to tute my own horn, but I'm one of the hardest working people I know. I honestly work at least 10 hours minim per day.

But I'm self employed, and I don't even have coverage for myself. I can't justify the $170 bi-weekly payment. While I make good money, I'm 28 years old and healthy and also, still a growing company.

I have equity in real estate, and insurance that covers me while at work. If something happens outside of that, I've decided to extract equity rather than pay $350 a month.

For me, it's risk vs. reward and so far the risk has saved me about 30k.

You may be healthy, but you can't control whether or not you get testicular cancer. Not only will you have to pay huge (much larger than $30k) medical bills, but you couldn't get coverage for the rest of your life.

My little sister's friend smoked some marijuana about a month ago and he was tripping out so his parents called an ambulance. He was fine but they kept him overnight at the hospital just as a precaution. He got a bill in the mail for just over $23,000 a couple weeks later. $hit is expensive.

[Hazard]

I understand where you are coming from on this and i cant argue your point "you expect me to take care of those who dont work as hard as me". Touches on ones fundamental primitive instincts to prevent freeloaders abusing you.

The problem is that there is a portion of any society who cannot lift themselves to the economic levels where basic health care is an option. The reasons could be anything from low IQ, type B personality, mental or physical disabilities, orphaned, old age, plain old poor life decisions....the reasons are many.

Should we disregard them because of the freeloaders?

I agree with what you are saying here and this is why I'm saying our current health system does need to be reformed.... some how. I just don't think the way we are going about it now is the right way.

Unfortunately, you can't weed out the ones who have tried and couldn't doit and the ones who just don't care to try.....

Listen..... i'm not a wealthy upper class american. I'm a hard working middle class guy who has a wife with a house and no health insurance. My wife was laid off..... and I started a new job last august. I'm working my ass off and so far it's really looking up for me for the 1st time. Just as easily as my future could be great..... it could just as easily crumble on me. If that happens..... so be it..... i'm still not going to look for a handout.

If they want to start reforming and making this county better while finding some money in the process - they can start with friggin welfare..... and these people who constantly pump out kids.....

~Haz~

[J-Dogg]

You may be healthy, but you can't control whether or not you get testicular cancer. Not only will you have to pay huge (much larger than $30k) medical bills, but you couldn't get coverage for the rest of your life.

My little sister's friend smoked some marijuana about a month ago and he was tripping out so his parents called an ambulance. He was fine but they kept him overnight at the hospital just as a precaution. He got a bill in the mail for just over $23,000 a couple weeks later. $hit is expensive.

In Michigan if you make a monthly payment, any amount, they cannot put a bad mark on your credit.

I'd pay 10 bucks a month, for the rest of my life.

[Mooseman33]

please spare me the bullshit about the cost of the war.
illegal immigration is whats killing us.

the amount of money these fvks drain us for in health care is discussing.
healthcare is fine the way it is, should be tweaked but stop serving the fvking illegals..

please tell me one good program the govt has ran, meaning succesfull?

[JDawg1536]

please spare me the bullshit about the cost of the war.
illegal immigration is whats killing us.

the amount of money these fvks drain us for in health care is discussing.
healthcare is fine the way it is, should be tweaked but stop serving the fvking illegals..

please tell me one good program the govt has ran, meaning succesfull?

You think the health care system is fine the way it is? You think this type of system is representative of the most powerful nation in the history of the world? You have some pretty low standards, friend.

As for a good program run by the government..... we have the most powerful military in the history of the world. Our libraries are kick ass too.

[novastepp]

Wonder what the care outcomes will look like when physicians take an ENORMOUS pay cut. That is going to make for some interesting statistical analysis and research.

[JDawg1536]

Wonder what the care outcomes will look like when physicians take an ENORMOUS pay cut. That is going to make for some interesting statistical analysis and research.

How big a pay cut are they going to take?

[thegodfather]

You think the health care system is fine the way it is? You think this type of system is representative of the most powerful nation in the history of the world? You have some pretty low standards, friend.

As for a good program run by the government..... we have the most powerful military in the history of the world. Our libraries are kick ass too.

Few things are fine the way that they are. However, most Americans, and most of the people posting in this thread just don't have enough knowledge about the way health care works, simple economic theories, and policy procedures in general. They certainly lack the ability to understand the legislation, and many cannot even understand how the current system works, or what the problems are.

One of the biggest fallacies, and in fact, outright lies, is that "THE FREE MARKET HAS FAILED HEALTH CARE IN THE UNITED STATES." This can only be true if there exists a free market in health care in the United States, and there does not, therefore it is impossible to say that the free market has not worked for health care.

There is NOT a free market in American health care. We have presently, a quasi-socialized, heavily heavily regulated, health care system. Medicare and Medicaid are huge socialized health care entities. On top of this fact, we have insurance companies which are highly regulated, and in some states REQUIRED to issue health insurance to those who apply for policies. Health care is not a right, insurance is not a right, etc, etc. Rights are not things which obligate a third party to provide something to you. They are things which you are born with, endowed with by your creator.

The fact that we are the most powerful industrialized nation in the country is irrelevant. Anyway, let me expand on my aforementioned points. I will try to make a bulleted post, as people seem to have ignored my many paragraphs of explanations.

Reasons that health care costs are out of control:

1. Medicare and Medicaid: These socialized systems are price fixers, they set reimbursements based on the dictates of Washington bureaucrats with no consideration for the market or what the market would dictate prices to be. Because Medicare/Medicaid do this, health care practitioners are forced to see more patients per hour, or to raise their prices on cash paying patients in order to maintain their income.


2. NO PRICE TRANSPARENCY: Laws actually FORBID health care practitioners, practices, and hospitals from advertising their prices for procedures, medications, and devices. It is impossible to have a free market without price transparency. Hospitals and private medical practices are not forced to COMPETE with one another because prices for services & goods in health care are "hidden." This contributes to price gouging and fixing. If we allow hospitals and medical practices to advertise their prices for services & goods, prices would drop drastically.

3. NO TORT REFORM: Ambulance chasing, sue happy lawyers, exploit common medical mistakes, and more often than not just plain POOR OUTCOMES. Medicine is an art, not a science. Bad things happen, people die, people are maimed, it is a reality of life. People need someone to blame. Very rarely is outright medical malpractice the reason for a persons death or permanent life altering condition. When that is actually the case, the patient or their families ought to be compensated, but at reasonable and CAPPED amounts of money.


3A. DEFENSIVE MEDICINE: Doctors are forced to order expensive tests needlessly in an effort to CYA (Cover Your Ass). What this means is that every patient who comes into the ER complaining of a headache, is going to get a Head CT at a cost of $3,000.00. Without aggressive tort reform, doctors will be forced to practice medicine based on the threat of lawsuits, and not based on their best judgment and the probability that the patient has a migraine over a brain aneurysm. Medicine is a field of probabilities not possibilities.

4. HEALTH INSURANCE IS TOO COMPREHENSIVE: Simply put, health insurance in its current form is too comprehensive and is not actually insurance at all. Insurance is a measure of risk, that a catastrophic event or accident will occur. Insurance is typically purchased to protect a person from a large financially liability in the event of an accident or catastrophic event. This means that health insurance SHOULD cover ONLY a.)Emergency room visits, b.) Surgeries, c.)Expensive tests and imaging when they are medically necessary. Routine doctors office visits are not an area that health insurance should be paying for. Doctors office visits are essentially "routine maintenance" or preventative maintenance. Because insurance companies have made co-pays so low, insured's view the service as essentially "free" and therefore have no INCENTIVE not to use the service every time they have a hang nail, runny nose, or sore throat.

4A. REDUCING HEALTH INSURANCE COSTS: If we limit what we expect health insurance companies to cover, we will significantly reduce yearly premiums and their rises in cost. We can establish tax free health savings accounts to use for our routine medical visits to primary care physicians.

4B. LOWERING COSTS= HEALTH INSURANCE AFFORDABLE TO A LARGER SECTOR OF THE POPULATION: By implementing the aforementioned steps, we are able to significantly lower premiums and the cost to obtain a health insurance policy, which equals more insurable individuals.

5. ALLOW DOCTORS TO NEGOTIATE CASH RATES FOR PATIENTS: We have taken the power away from doctors to negotiate cash rates for their patients. If they do so, they open themselves up to being paid even LOWER reimbursement rates by MCARE/MCAID.




By implementing free market solutions to health care, we allow more people to be insured. This means that doctors can once again provide charity care to patients who are simply unable to pay. Presently we have made it far too expensive to absorb the uninsured via charity care because of the many factors which contribute to the rising costs of health care. It is important to understand however, that the many rising costs of health care are DUE to government interference and regulation into the market of health care. It is ridiculous to think that government is now also the solution to all of the problems that they themselves have created.


No one has a RIGHT to the labor, or fruits of labor of other people. We as American's, have no "social responsibility" to other Americans. We do however, have the OPTION to donate our income to other American's for health care. We should not however, be coerced (via the threat of violence) to have money from our income stolen in order to provide health care for our fellow Americans. It is antithetical to the entire essence and principles by which our country was founded on. It is time that we start following the document the founding fathers of this country crafted for us, for it is the deviation from this document that has led to the majority of the problems we face today. [B][SIZE="3"]It is important that we as Americans, start to heavily reconsider WHAT THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT OUGHT TO BE. We should be true Americans, and look to OURSELVES for the answers to OUR problems. We ought not look to large over arching Federal BUREAUCRACIES as the answer to our questions.

Bureaucrats in Washington are not the answer to our problems. Bureaucrats do not have the intelligence or the knowledge to make complicated decisions. I encourage everyone to get involved at the local and state levels. You know what is best for you and the people in your community. You know what is best for you and the people in your STATE! Bureaucrats in Washington do not know whats best for you and your citizens in your state. Become involved locally and at the state level, that was the intended purpose of our Republic! It is time that we reject statism, and support FEDERALISM!

[Kratos]

I understand where you are coming from on this and i cant argue your point "you expect me to take care of those who dont work as hard as me". Touches on ones fundamental primitive instincts to prevent freeloaders abusing you.

The problem is that there is a portion of any society who cannot lift themselves to the economic levels where basic health care is an option. The reasons could be anything from low IQ, type B personality, mental or physical disabilities, orphaned, old age, plain old poor life decisions....the reasons are many.

Should we disregard them because of the freeloaders?

are those people not given insurance now under medicaid?

[Kratos]

What good are your finances when you're dead?

which is why if you're having a heart attack...you might want to go ahead and dial 911 and figure out how to pay for it later.

[Kratos]

Makes no difference whether it is a child or an adult. To many, a human life, no matter what their financial situation or their race/social disposition, is valuable.

My key point remains, which you have not commented on, the humanistic view is that in advanced society, those that have more (for whatever reason) should care for the weaker (for whatever reason) members of that society.

Quoting Warren Buffet: "If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent."

Again the appeal to emotion..although I can't for the life of me figure out why you decided to play to race card.

Sure, those who have more can help...but not to the point they no longer have more. We're on track to bankrupt the country.
What level of suffering do you expect when nobody gets their entitlement check anymore?

Warren Buffet is an ass...he has money yes, but other than that his brain is garbage. The top 99 percent should think about the rest...does that even hold to logic? Does the top 1 percent have to think about the rest of the top 10 percent? At what point is there a cut off of who you think about?
He may be planning on giving away a lot of money in death and he may have given away a lot recently. But he has never once given away an amount of money that put his lifestyle or wealth at risk.

We can help, but there must be a limit.

[Kratos]

How big a pay cut are they going to take?

If the gvmt controls all insurance?
substantial
50% of doctors now don't take medicaid because they loose money on it
it's kinda like the priceline commercial...you've got an empty room 65 dollars is better than no dollars.
But doctors who are booked are not interested...the payments don't even cover their overhead.
Hospitals in lower income areas in Mass are sueing the state because with a similar progam to obama care the newly covered population is bankrupting them because of reimbursements that don't cover the cost of care.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/157885.php
http://www.boston.com/business/healt...nt_shortfalls/

[Kratos]

btw warren buffet compared the urgency of passing a bailout with American's decision to go to war after Pearl Harbor was attacked in 1941.

then tells CNBC he's making his surprise $5 billion investment in Goldman Sachs because "the price was right, the terms were right, and the people were right."

made 10 billion dollars off his investment. Off selling the american people on a bailout package.

I didn't hear his dried up old lips complain about the bailout going to exec compensation


what kinda a-hole keeps his stock trading at 100k and refuses to split...oh yeah, I'm sure he cares about the average guy. Cause everybody has a spare 100k to invest in 1 share.

"I’ll tell you why I like the cigarette business. It costs a penny to make. Sell it for a dollar. It’s addictive. And there’s fantastic brand loyalty"
in 2007 he dragged his rotten dried up asshole to testify before the senate to preserve the estate tax...he makes money from setting up trusts and shelters, and many of the businesses he owns were sold to pay inheritence tax. Not to mention the small detail that as all of his holdings are in trusts or other tax exempt vehicles




I hope his private jet crashes and he breaks both his legs and he has to chew them off to escape from his seat and he bleeds out while a bear eats his old rotten asshole.

[Kratos]

We spend 680 BILLION a year on our military.

And we are complaining about taking care of sick people who can't afford to do so themselves?

.

What's the deficit this year? Somewhere from 1.3-1.8 trillion depending on who you ask...subtract 680billion and we're still running a deficit...why?

Mandatory spending: $1.89 trillion (+6.2%)
$944 billion - Social Security
$408 billion - Medicare
$224 billion - Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
$360 billion - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
$260 billion - Interest on National Debt
Discretionary spending: $1.21 trillion (+4.9%)
$515.4 billion - United States Department of Defense
$145.2 billion(2008*) - Global War on Terror
$70.4 billion - United States Department of Health and Human Services
$68.2 billion - United States Department of Transportation
$45.4 billion - United States Department of Education
$44.8 billion - United States Department of Veterans Affairs
$38.5 billion - United States Department of Housing and Urban Development
$38.3 billion - State and Other International Programs
$37.6 billion - United States Department of Homeland Security
$25.0 billion - United States Department of Energy
$20.8 billion - United States Department of Agriculture
$20.3 billion - United States Department of Justice
$17.6 billion - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
$12.5 billion - United States Department of the Treasury
$10.6 billion - United States Department of the Interior
$10.5 billion - United States Department of Labor
$8.4 billion - Social Security Administration
$7.1 billion - United States Environmental Protection Agency
$6.9 billion - National Science Foundation
$6.3 billion - Judicial branch (United States federal courts)
$4.7 billion - Legislative branch (United States Congress)
$4.7 billion - United States Army Corps of Engineers
$0.4 billion - Executive Office of the President
$0.7 billion - Small Business Administration
$7.2 billion - Other agencies
$39.0 billion(2008*) - Other Off-budget Discretionary Spending

[JDawg1536]

If the gvmt controls all insurance?
substantial
50% of doctors now don't take medicaid because they loose money on it
it's kinda like the priceline commercial...you've got an empty room 65 dollars is better than no dollars.
But doctors who are booked are not interested...the payments don't even cover their overhead.
Hospitals in lower income areas in Mass are sueing the state because with a similar progam to obama care the newly covered population is bankrupting them because of reimbursements that don't cover the cost of care.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/157885.php
http://www.boston.com/business/healt...nt_shortfalls/

Then why is it that so many doctors are in favor of a universal health care system? I spoke with a doctor a couple weeks ago and she said that 75% of doctors were for it, including her. I don't know how accurate that is since I've read 25%, 50%, 75% 13%, etc....


I'm not saying you or anyone else is right or wrong.... I'm just curious.

[Mooseman33]

btw warren buffet compared the urgency of passing a bailout with American's decision to go to war after Pearl Harbor was attacked in 1941.

then tells CNBC he's making his surprise $5 billion investment in Goldman Sachs because "the price was right, the terms were right, and the people were right."

made 10 billion dollars off his investment. Off selling the american people on a bailout package.

I didn't hear his dried up old lips complain about the bailout going to exec compensation


what kinda a-hole keeps his stock trading at 100k and refuses to split...oh yeah, I'm sure he cares about the average guy. Cause everybody has a spare 100k to invest in 1 share.

"I’ll tell you why I like the cigarette business. It costs a penny to make. Sell it for a dollar. It’s addictive. And there’s fantastic brand loyalty"
in 2007 he dragged his rotten dried up asshole to testify before the senate to preserve the estate tax...he makes money from setting up trusts and shelters, and many of the businesses he owns were sold to pay inheritence tax. Not to mention the small detail that as all of his holdings are in trusts or other tax exempt vehicles




I hope his private jet crashes and he breaks both his legs and he has to chew them off to escape from his seat and he bleeds out while a bear eats his old rotten asshole.

that could be the funniest thing i have read in a while....kratos, u kill me man...
keep on doing it brother....