I have a question about WAR

**cherrydrpepper** · 06-28-2010, 02:15 PM

I have been wondering this for years. I have brought it up a couple of times to people and couldn't get a straight answer.

Ok so we have the most technology development in the world hands down. ******* bombers, drones, computerized missile systems, new tech the media doesn't know about.

So why is it everytime something f-d up is going on in the world, we feel the need to force a full scale invasion. Not just the stuff going on today in Iraq and Aghanistan, but future conflicts. Iran. North Korea. We aren't there yet, but if those ****s make the wrong move we could be there next week.

Conservative statistics of civilians killed in iraq 100k
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Why not use our tech to figure out when the prime targets will be within a 5 or 10 mile radius and just blow the entire area? Is this somehow the worse of the two evils because some civilians will die intentionally versus being caught in the crossfire of AKs Bombs M16s RPGs etc going off?

Why send troops and get bogged down for the next 10 years and have the body count go through the roof? You know most of these dictators are cowards anyway. So you f up and your bomb only kills their mom dad and some cousins; They still get the message and knock their shit off.

**Nooomoto** · 06-28-2010, 02:20 PM

No technology can replace boots on the ground for a number of reasons. There are things that computers just can't do.

We get bogged down because politicos send the military into places with one hand tied behind their back. If the military were turned loose and allowed to do what they know how to do, you can be assured this shit would be over very quickly.

There's a lot going on behind the scenes, and theres only a hand full of people that have the big picture. As far as I know, none of them are on this forum.

**Shol'va** · 06-28-2010, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Nooomoto

No technology can replace boots on the ground for a number of reasons. There are things that computers just can't do.

We get bogged down because politicos send the military into places with one hand tied behind their back. If the military were turned loose and allowed to do what they know how to do, you can be assured this shit would be over very quickly.

There's a lot going on behind the scenes, and theres only a hand full of people that have the big picture. As far as I know, none of them are on this forum.

Damned good answer and spot on! To me, one of the best examples of this took place back during the Korean War when Douglas McArthur was Preparing to finish the war by plowing through North Korea when then Pres. Harry Truman called him back To Washington and fired him because of the prevailing winds of the politicians. Of course, had he let the General do his job then, we would not have the issues we now have with the North.

**lovbyts** · 06-29-2010, 12:38 AM

It's not profitable to win a war quickly.

**G4R** · 06-29-2010, 12:49 AM

All very good points. Also, like was mentioned, when areas are bombed from a distance, and there are civilian casulties, it never looks good.

"As soon as war is looked upon as wicked, it will always have its fascination. When it is looked upon as vulgar, it will cease to be popular."
-Oscar Wilde

**Atomini** · 06-29-2010, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by going4ripped

All very good points. Also, like was mentioned, when areas are bombed from a distance, and there are civilian casulties, it never looks good.

"As soon as war is looked upon as wicked, it will always have its fascination. When it is looked upon as vulgar, it will cease to be popular."
-Oscar Wilde

More so TODAY than in the past. Hundreds of thousands of civilians at a time lost their lives in WW2, but not much of it was reported. Today with the advent of 24/7 mass media, and the fact that anyone with a camera can record something and stick it on youtube, if even the slightest of civilian casualties occurs, then its out in the public's eye in a second. This didn't happen 70 years ago.

The military can no longer steamroll the shit out of the enemy anymore with little regard to civilian collateral damage, unless they do very good cover-up jobs from the media, which is extremely difficult these days due to what I mentioned above.

**auslifta** · 06-29-2010, 06:07 AM

Its the mentality of Americans that see other county civilians casulties as insignificant that cause someone to strap bombs to themselves and come within range of American embasy's and blow themselves up. If some other country wiped out your whole family with one bomb, and you had nothing left, no house, no job through war torn country you would probably travel to said country and blow shit out of them. This post means no offence to anyone, if it does I apologise.

**Times Roman** · 06-29-2010, 06:55 AM

The War Pigs in power like to play with their toys. There was a song once that explained it like it is... we are a country with a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand.

**Skyler** · 06-29-2010, 07:11 AM

I am in the Army, and from what i have seen first hand, at least in our current situation, there are no innocent civilians. They all play their role.
And the Army does have one arm tied behind their back, at the very least. Do you have any idea how common it now is for a guy (innocent civilian) to decide to open fire on unsuspecting American soldiers, then drop his weapon, and put his hands in the air? Guess what? I got two dead friends, but if i shoot this unarmed man, I spend the rest of my life in jail. Awesome, right?

And do you have any idea how many IED or EFP storage sights we find? The good old media makes it sound like the IED really is just a simple "improvised" explosive devise, and it is don't by only the bad guys, but poor civilians are associated with it. Why then have I seen entire building, homes, etc FULL, packed to the doors and windows, of EFP plates and containers? All IDENTICAL, so perfectly formed and identical to one another that it is obvious that all 3,000 of them must have been made in a factory. Improvised my ass.
Then we find these factory made EFP and IED's and materials inside countless "innocent civilians' homes"
Guess what, can't prove anything (somehow) and they all walk away, just so we can see the exact same person setting up an IED a week later, or opening fire on us then dropping his weapon and surrendering.
The kids ask you for food and candy, so even though you might be down to a single MRE for the day, you decide to give them what you can, just so they can start saying "f*ck you AMERICAN, F*ck YOU, I hoe you die American!" and they and all their little innocent children friends throw rocks at you and your vehicles.
I know rocks won't kill me, but when that same 12 year old grabs an AK-47, what do we do? Get shot? or Kill him? Because even if one of us kills that little **** to save countless American soldiers, guess what? We are bad and evil people for killing "a poor, innocent, confused child"

This whole subject in f*cked up.
If you haven't been their
If you haven't heard the sounds
Seen the images
Had a f*cking mental breakdown from the emotional overload

Then don't chime in and act like a f*cking expert on the matter.
In WWII we realized that the war was killing hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and civilians. It was completely leveling entire cities that had been their from a few decades to a couple hundred years. It was wasting all the money, and resources or every nation involved.
So what did we do? The USA and Australia dropped a bomb, it was very effective. The Japanese still weren't ready to call it quits, so we dropped another bomb. There you go, war is over. Yes, the bombs killed innocent people, yes they leveled entire cities.
But you know what else was leveling cities and killing countless innocent people? THE ENTIRE WAR. The bomb though cost less money, used less material, and actually killed less people than the rest of the war. And it worked a whole lot faster and more effectively too.

F*ck the middle east. They have been the number one source for terrorist activity all over the world for over a hundred years. They have been killing innocent people the whole time. They have been killing each other the whole time. Any truelly "innocent" people have long left those countries. Everyone left in those countries is guilty of something.
We need to drop a bomb, and end this sh*t once and for all. All you new age tampon wearing, flower power f*cks can argue all you want, but just like WWII, dropping a bomb in the end will save more lives than it takes, it will cost less money, it will use less material, and it will work much faster and more effectively.

Thats MY view on the situation.

**auslifta** · 06-29-2010, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Skyler

I am in the Army, and from what i have seen first hand, at least in our current situation, there are no innocent civilians. They all play their role.
And the Army does have one arm tied behind their back, at the very least. Do you have any idea how common it now is for a guy (innocent civilian) to decide to open fire on unsuspecting American soldiers, then drop his weapon, and put his hands in the air? Guess what? I got two dead friends, but if i shoot this unarmed man, I spend the rest of my life in jail. Awesome, right?

And do you have any idea how many IED or EFP storage sights we find? The good old media makes it sound like the IED really is just a simple "improvised" explosive devise, and it is don't by only the bad guys, but poor civilians are associated with it. Why then have I seen entire building, homes, etc FULL, packed to the doors and windows, of EFP plates and containers? All IDENTICAL, so perfectly formed and identical to one another that it is obvious that all 3,000 of them must have been made in a factory. Improvised my ass.
Then we find these factory made EFP and IED's and materials inside countless "innocent civilians' homes"
Guess what, can't prove anything (somehow) and they all walk away, just so we can see the exact same person setting up an IED a week later, or opening fire on us then dropping his weapon and surrendering.
The kids ask you for food and candy, so even though you might be down to a single MRE for the day, you decide to give them what you can, just so they can start saying "f*ck you AMERICAN, F*ck YOU, I hoe you die American!" and they and all their little innocent children friends throw rocks at you and your vehicles.
I know rocks won't kill me, but when that same 12 year old grabs an AK-47, what do we do? Get shot? or Kill him? Because even if one of us kills that little **** to save countless American soldiers, guess what? We are bad and evil people for killing "a poor, innocent, confused child"

This whole subject in f*cked up.
If you haven't been their
If you haven't heard the sounds
Seen the images
Had a f*cking mental breakdown from the emotional overload

Then don't chime in and act like a f*cking expert on the matter.
In WWII we realized that the war was killing hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and civilians. It was completely leveling entire cities that had been their from a few decades to a couple hundred years. It was wasting all the money, and resources or every nation involved.
So what did we do? The USA and Australia dropped a bomb, it was very effective. The Japanese still weren't ready to call it quits, so we dropped another bomb. There you go, war is over. Yes, the bombs killed innocent people, yes they leveled entire cities.
But you know what else was leveling cities and killing countless innocent people? THE ENTIRE WAR. The bomb though cost less money, used less material, and actually killed less people than the rest of the war. And it worked a whole lot faster and more effectively too.

F*ck the middle east. They have been the number one source for terrorist activity all over the world for over a hundred years. They have been killing innocent people the whole time. They have been killing each other the whole time. Any truelly "innocent" people have long left those countries. Everyone left in those countries is guilty of something.
We need to drop a bomb, and end this sh*t once and for all. All you new age tampon wearing, flower power f*cks can argue all you want, but just like WWII, dropping a bomb in the end will save more lives than it takes, it will cost less money, it will use less material, and it will work much faster and more effectively.

Thats MY view on the situation.

The bomb itself cost's less yes. But America was still paying Japan for 50yrs after for compensation.
Don't get me wrong, I think the middle east is a major shiit hole, with barbaric, backward dark ages society that needs to be blown up-I was just saying being there killing someones family will cause the hatred toward us that feeds terrorism. It's a viscious cycle, that will never finish eg Palistine/Israel. So your saying all the people there are guilty. Fair enough. then why the fvck are we in Iraq/Afgan??? Wasn't the excuse to start diplomacy? We all know that won't work there.
One more question-If America got invaded and your government got thrown, your family got shot, what would you do? To tell you the truth if someone done that to me I'd prob do the same as them.

**Skyler** · 06-29-2010, 08:05 AM

If America got invaded, our massive, powerful army, would defend it. Not to mention, our right to bare arms and the 300 million people that embrace that right, along with the overwelming patiotism in recent years would not allow the invading army to make it very far. If by some chance our government was overthrown, it wouldn't change the fact that the people here would continue to defend themselves. If my family was killed, I would have been killed along with them, because they would HAVE TO KILL ME FIRST before they could even approach my family.
In the end, it still isn't the same situation. Was Afghanistan a powerful, proud, and productive country that we for no reason decided to invade?

**auslifta** · 06-29-2010, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Skyler

If America got invaded, our massive, powerful army, would defend it. Not to mention, our right to bare arms and the 300 million people that embrace that right, along with the overwelming patiotism in recent years would not allow the invading army to make it very far. If by some chance our government was overthrown, it wouldn't change the fact that the people here would continue to defend themselves. If my family was killed, I would have been killed along with them, because they would HAVE TO KILL ME FIRST before they could even approach my family.
In the end, it still isn't the same situation. Was Afghanistan a powerful, proud, and productive country that we for no reason decided to invade?

Second bold^The Soviot's failed.
I believe the real reason for being there is opium, thats another debate. Truth is they don't have the same powerful army as we do, they are doing what I belive you would do as well, as stated by first bold^.
You say 300mil people that embrace that right to bare arms, thats true. Don't think it can't happen though, extremely highly unlikely I know-but China has another billion people than you do. I know there are another million reasons why China won't do that, but it is possible that they can.

**Kibble** · 06-29-2010, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by cherrydrpepper

I have been wondering this for years. I have brought it up a couple of times to people and couldn't get a straight answer.

Ok so we have the most technology development in the world hands down. ******* bombers, drones, computerized missile systems, new tech the media doesn't know about.

So why is it everytime something f-d up is going on in the world, we feel the need to force a full scale invasion. Not just the stuff going on today in Iraq and Aghanistan, but future conflicts. Iran. North Korea. We aren't there yet, but if those ****s make the wrong move we could be there next week.

Conservative statistics of civilians killed in iraq 100k
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Why not use our tech to figure out when the prime targets will be within a 5 or 10 mile radius and just blow the entire area? Is this somehow the worse of the two evils because some civilians will die intentionally versus being caught in the crossfire of AKs Bombs M16s RPGs etc going off?

Why send troops and get bogged down for the next 10 years and have the body count go through the roof? You know most of these dictators are cowards anyway. So you f up and your bomb only kills their mom dad and some cousins; They still get the message and knock their shit off.

Because the insurgents operate in areas where the civilian population is high. They understand America's dedication to the Geneva Conventions, Escalation of Force, Rules of Engagement, etc. There will always be civilian casualties, until the world dedicates a some common ground where enemy forces are designed to do battle

**wharton** · 06-29-2010, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by cherrydrpepper

I have been wondering this for years. I have brought it up a couple of times to people and couldn't get a straight answer.

Ok so we have the most technology development in the world hands down. ******* bombers, drones, computerized missile systems, new tech the media doesn't know about.

So why is it everytime something f-d up is going on in the world, we feel the need to force a full scale invasion. Not just the stuff going on today in Iraq and Aghanistan, but future conflicts. Iran. North Korea. We aren't there yet, but if those ****s make the wrong move we could be there next week.

Conservative statistics of civilians killed in iraq 100k
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Why not use our tech to figure out when the prime targets will be within a 5 or 10 mile radius and just blow the entire area? Is this somehow the worse of the two evils because some civilians will die intentionally versus being caught in the crossfire of AKs Bombs M16s RPGs etc going off?

Why send troops and get bogged down for the next 10 years and have the body count go through the roof? You know most of these dictators are cowards anyway. So you f up and your bomb only kills their mom dad and some cousins; They still get the message and knock their shit off.

You kill civillians from far away that you knew would die and your a murderer, you send troops and they acidently kill those people while shooting the enemy, there labeled heros. Its all politics, let the soldiers do the dirty work so the politicians dont have to.

**Shol'va** · 06-29-2010, 07:23 PM

From the looks of things, this is a touchy subject. So I think that we can all agree to disagree.....or not.

**cherrydrpepper** · 06-29-2010, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Shol'va

From the looks of things, this is a touchy subject. So I think that we can all agree to disagree.....or not.

Yeah im ok with that. Great answers but we should return the karma back to its normal positive light hearted AR Lounge status. Penis thread anyone? j/k

**420daytona** · 06-30-2010, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

The War Pigs in power like to play with their toys. There was a song once that explained it like it is... we are a country with a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTRMZk-l_VY

**Hoggage_54** · 06-30-2010, 03:50 PM

I watched Full Metal Jacket the other day... good movie

**Times Roman** · 06-30-2010, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by 420daytona

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTRMZk-l_VY

yes! you caught it.. but you missed the neil young reference...?

**thegodfather** · 06-30-2010, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Skyler

F*ck the middle east. They have been the number one source for terrorist activity all over the world for over a hundred years. They have been killing innocent people the whole time. They have been killing each other the whole time. Any truelly "innocent" people have long left those countries. Everyone left in those countries is guilty of something.
We need to drop a bomb, and end this sh*t once and for all. All you new age tampon wearing, flower power f*cks can argue all you want, but just like WWII, dropping a bomb in the end will save more lives than it takes, it will cost less money, it will use less material, and it will work much faster and more effectively.

Thats MY view on the situation.

Skyler and BigKuntry, thank you for your service.

Let me give you some background on myself, I have a degree in Political Science, and I have contributed to published works on Constitutional Law and Interpretation. I have also studied foreign policy, international relations, etc.

Your view point Skyler, unfortunately, is motivated by emotion and propaganda that has been fed to you. You have a limited amount of information on the situation, therefore you aren't able to form a rational opinion, it's not your fault.

First off, "Terrorism" is a tactic of waging war. It is not a person or place. It is impossible to wage war against a tactic, the "war on terrorism" is a joke. It is akin to us declaring a "War on Frontal Assaults," or a "War On Flanking Maneuvers," it is a futile effort.

Next, it is important to understand that our foreign policy and actions has been agitating and emboldening the Middle East for more than 50 years now. We have supported the state of Israel with money and weapons, who have committed untold war crimes and crimes against humanity, mostly aimed at the middle eastern people, the people of Palestine. Almost 2 million people are held captive in a small strip of land, denied proper medical care, food, water, oil, and infrastructure. They are reduced to 2nd class citizen status, and Israel runs an apartheid style state. Our support of this system of human atrocity is one of their main grievances against the United States. The founding fathers of the United States warned us against becoming involved in entangling ********s for that VERY REASON. They said "Allies with no nations, trade with all!"

Additionally, we have been meddling in the affairs and politics of middle eastern countries for over 50 years. In Iran, we overthrew their DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT through the CIA, simply because we didn't like who they elected. We installed a brutal dictator, the Shaw, and the people of Iran suffered greatly. We levy sanctions against their countries, which causes them to suffer economically, impacting their quality of life. We have also built bases on their land, which they consider to be their holy land. We think that we can march around the world, doing as we please, with no consequences. The CIA has described the principle as "blowback," and they themselves admit that many of our actions and foreign policy decisions cause a reaction.

If you believe that these people are motivated enough to commit suicide bombings, simply because they "hate us because we are free and prosperous," then you are seriously mistaken. What motivates these people to blow themselves up, is our continuous meddling in their affairs, dropping bombs on their family members, trampling across their holy land, killing their relatives, occupying their countries, and committing untold crimes against their people. If another country did only half of the things that we have done to the people in that region, we would be doing the same things that they are doing! It is imperative we understand WHY our enemy is motivated to do the things that they do, if we are ever going to end the bloodshed.

We have NO authority to police the world. We have NO authority to invade a sovereign country, unless they DIRECTLY threaten the national security of the homeland of the United States of America. Invading Afghanistan was completely justified, invading Iraq WAS NOT justified. The Constitution states that we MUST have a DECLARATION OF WAR made by Congress in order to go to war. We did not have either in either situation. The Emergency War Powers act by the President, are only good for 90 days, at which time he must go before Congress and they must approve or deny the war, and if they approve, they must DECLARE WAR. This was not done. We are seeing the consequences of an undeclared war, they drag out for years and years on end, because we have no clear objectives to accomplish, therefore the litmus test for victory is UNKNOWN.

We ought to start seeing things from other peoples perspectives, and consider how we would feel and how we would react if we some of the things we do to other countries were done to us. How would any of you feel if the Chinese built a military base in your town? How would you feel if they drove around your town in military vehicles, fully armed? What would you do about it? Answer those questions.

**zaggahamma** · 06-30-2010, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Skyler and BigKuntry, thank you for your service.

Let me give you some background on myself, I have a degree in Political Science, and I have contributed to published works on Constitutional Law and Interpretation. I have also studied foreign policy, international relations, etc.

Your view point Skyler, unfortunately, is motivated by emotion and propaganda that has been fed to you. You have a limited amount of information on the situation, therefore you aren't able to form a rational opinion, it's not your fault.

First off, "Terrorism" is a tactic of waging war. It is not a person or place. It is impossible to wage war against a tactic, the "war on terrorism" is a joke. It is akin to us declaring a "War on Frontal Assaults," or a "War On Flanking Maneuvers," it is a futile effort.

Next, it is important to understand that our foreign policy and actions has been agitating and emboldening the Middle East for more than 50 years now. We have supported the state of Israel with money and weapons, who have committed untold war crimes and crimes against humanity, mostly aimed at the middle eastern people, the people of Palestine. Almost 2 million people are held captive in a small strip of land, denied proper medical care, food, water, oil, and infrastructure. They are reduced to 2nd class citizen status, and Israel runs an apartheid style state. Our support of this system of human atrocity is one of their main grievances against the United States. The founding fathers of the United States warned us against becoming involved in entangling ********s for that VERY REASON. They said "Allies with no nations, trade with all!"

Additionally, we have been meddling in the affairs and politics of middle eastern countries for over 50 years. In Iran, we overthrew their DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT through the CIA, simply because we didn't like who they elected. We installed a brutal dictator, the Shaw, and the people of Iran suffered greatly. We levy sanctions against their countries, which causes them to suffer economically, impacting their quality of life. We have also built bases on their land, which they consider to be their holy land. We think that we can march around the world, doing as we please, with no consequences. The CIA has described the principle as "blowback," and they themselves admit that many of our actions and foreign policy decisions cause a reaction.

If you believe that these people are motivated enough to commit suicide bombings, simply because they "hate us because we are free and prosperous," then you are seriously mistaken. What motivates these people to blow themselves up, is our continuous meddling in their affairs, dropping bombs on their family members, trampling across their holy land, killing their relatives, occupying their countries, and committing untold crimes against their people. If another country did only half of the things that we have done to the people in that region, we would be doing the same things that they are doing! It is imperative we understand WHY our enemy is motivated to do the things that they do, if we are ever going to end the bloodshed.

We have NO authority to police the world. We have NO authority to invade a sovereign country, unless they DIRECTLY threaten the national security of the homeland of the United States of America. Invading Afghanistan was completely justified, invading Iraq WAS NOT justified. The Constitution states that we MUST have a DECLARATION OF WAR made by Congress in order to go to war. We did not have either in either situation. The Emergency War Powers act by the President, are only good for 90 days, at which time he must go before Congress and they must approve or deny the war, and if they approve, they must DECLARE WAR. This was not done. We are seeing the consequences of an undeclared war, they drag out for years and years on end, because we have no clear objectives to accomplish, therefore the litmus test for victory is UNKNOWN.

We ought to start seeing things from other peoples perspectives, and consider how we would feel and how we would react if we some of the things we do to other countries were done to us. How would any of you feel if the Chinese built a military base in your town? How would you feel if they drove around your town in military vehicles, fully armed? What would you do about it? Answer those questions.

are ALL the people of these countries that our military occupy unhappy at our presence?

were the people of iraq unhappy of sadaam's capture? didnt they hang him THEMSELVES?

**Skyler** · 06-30-2010, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Skyler and BigKuntry, thank you for your service.

Let me give you some background on myself, I have a degree in Political Science, and I have contributed to published works on Constitutional Law and Interpretation. I have also studied foreign policy, international relations, etc.

Your view point Skyler, unfortunately, is motivated by emotion and propaganda that has been fed to you. You have a limited amount of information on the situation, therefore you aren't able to form a rational opinion, it's not your fault.

First off, "Terrorism" is a tactic of waging war. It is not a person or place. It is impossible to wage war against a tactic, the "war on terrorism" is a joke. It is akin to us declaring a "War on Frontal Assaults," or a "War On Flanking Maneuvers," it is a futile effort.

Next, it is important to understand that our foreign policy and actions has been agitating and emboldening the Middle East for more than 50 years now. We have supported the state of Israel with money and weapons, who have committed untold war crimes and crimes against humanity, mostly aimed at the middle eastern people, the people of Palestine. Almost 2 million people are held captive in a small strip of land, denied proper medical care, food, water, oil, and infrastructure. They are reduced to 2nd class citizen status, and Israel runs an apartheid style state. Our support of this system of human atrocity is one of their main grievances against the United States. The founding fathers of the United States warned us against becoming involved in entangling ********s for that VERY REASON. They said "Allies with no nations, trade with all!"

Additionally, we have been meddling in the affairs and politics of middle eastern countries for over 50 years. In Iran, we overthrew their DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT through the CIA, simply because we didn't like who they elected. We installed a brutal dictator, the Shaw, and the people of Iran suffered greatly. We levy sanctions against their countries, which causes them to suffer economically, impacting their quality of life. We have also built bases on their land, which they consider to be their holy land. We think that we can march around the world, doing as we please, with no consequences. The CIA has described the principle as "blowback," and they themselves admit that many of our actions and foreign policy decisions cause a reaction.

If you believe that these people are motivated enough to commit suicide bombings, simply because they "hate us because we are free and prosperous," then you are seriously mistaken. What motivates these people to blow themselves up, is our continuous meddling in their affairs, dropping bombs on their family members, trampling across their holy land, killing their relatives, occupying their countries, and committing untold crimes against their people. If another country did only half of the things that we have done to the people in that region, we would be doing the same things that they are doing! It is imperative we understand WHY our enemy is motivated to do the things that they do, if we are ever going to end the bloodshed.

We have NO authority to police the world. We have NO authority to invade a sovereign country, unless they DIRECTLY threaten the national security of the homeland of the United States of America. Invading Afghanistan was completely justified, invading Iraq WAS NOT justified. The Constitution states that we MUST have a DECLARATION OF WAR made by Congress in order to go to war. We did not have either in either situation. The Emergency War Powers act by the President, are only good for 90 days, at which time he must go before Congress and they must approve or deny the war, and if they approve, they must DECLARE WAR. This was not done. We are seeing the consequences of an undeclared war, they drag out for years and years on end, because we have no clear objectives to accomplish, therefore the litmus test for victory is UNKNOWN.

We ought to start seeing things from other peoples perspectives, and consider how we would feel and how we would react if we some of the things we do to other countries were done to us. How would any of you feel if the Chinese built a military base in your town? How would you feel if they drove around your town in military vehicles, fully armed? What would you do about it? Answer those questions.

I completely agree with everything you have said. You have a gift for explaining things very clearly, in a way that is easy to understand.
You are also right that my emotions do effect my better judgement.
I will be honest. Before I joined the Army, I was the type of person to point out everything you have pointed out, and stayed up to date on leveling the playing field.
Since i have joined the Army, things have changed. I have had to spend very long periods of time away from everyone and everything I love, which is hard enough without then having to live through the emotional and physical stresses that I have.
I know it sounds generic, and it is hard for people to understand what i mean, because even the best descriptions could not ever truelly relay my message.
I am not the same person anymore. I have seen things that i would trade everything for, just to take back that i ever saw them.
Even something like death. People take it so lightly, it is a commercial reference in todays world. It is in movies, shows, video games, and because of that, the very word or mention of death has lost its value.
I have always been a very tough person. I grew up in a very traditional irish catholic family, and was raised with physical and sexual abuse. Having no food, no clothing, and having to walk the streets to find the bar that my mother passed out in was not uncommon. So I always felt that due to my upbringing, I was very well adjusted. I thought I would be the perfect soldier, I could be around death and war and it would not effect me.
I was wrong.
I have watched a captured American Soldier tied, bound, beaten, and terrified. I have heard him beg for his life. I watched and listened as these terrorists set up the camera, and told him everything they were about to do to him, just so that his uncomprehendable fear would be on record.
All he wanted to do was be back home. He wanted to see his family. He wanted to kiss his daughter and hold her tight, telling her just how much he loved her. He begged god to let him wake up from this nightmare. He prayed so hard. He would change everything in his life, he would be a better husband, father, son, brother. He would never go to war again. He offered everything just to not let this be the end.
Every night when I go to bed I find myself staring at the ceiling. I cannot escape the image of his eyes. The look in his eyes when they first touched the knife to his neck. I wish the fear the blade brought on would have killed him, so they would not get to have their way. Watching the knife slide into the side of his throat, being pulled back and forth in a cutting motion moving from the middle of his throat toward the front. Watching his face as he was alive and aware of every moment. Every feeling. As his blood covered more and more of the floor, I could not take my eyes off of his. I felt like I was in his head. I was having his thoughts. God had betrayed him. This was it. This was the end. No deals can be made, there is no going back. His daughter is only a memory now, one that will soon be gone. He is going to die here. This is how it happens.

I saw the life leave his body.

Every night I see him. Every night I remember his face, his words, his cries, and his thoughts. I remember every grain of hair on his unshaved face. I remember just how high the cut went towards the back of his head when they removed it from his body.

I REFUSE to ever feel bad for these people. To help them justify their actions. Or to be sympathetic towards them. I know I am supposed to be politically correct and want to save the women and children. So kill only the men that we absolutely have to.
But I cannot feel that way. I want them all to burn. I want every one of them to die just as painfully, just as slowly, and just as alone and scared as my friend did.

Drop the bomb. If I have to throw on a cowboy hat and ride the thing down myself, so be it.
Drop the bomb.

**collar** · 06-30-2010, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

It's not profitable to win a war quickly.

clap clap, best answer by a long way.

**collar** · 06-30-2010, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Skyler and BigKuntry, thank you for your service.

Let me give you some background on myself, I have a degree in Political Science, and I have contributed to published works on Constitutional Law and Interpretation. I have also studied foreign policy, international relations, etc.

Your view point Skyler, unfortunately, is motivated by emotion and propaganda that has been fed to you. You have a limited amount of information on the situation, therefore you aren't able to form a rational opinion, it's not your fault.

First off, "Terrorism" is a tactic of waging war. It is not a person or place. It is impossible to wage war against a tactic, the "war on terrorism" is a joke. It is akin to us declaring a "War on Frontal Assaults," or a "War On Flanking Maneuvers," it is a futile effort.

Next, it is important to understand that our foreign policy and actions has been agitating and emboldening the Middle East for more than 50 years now. We have supported the state of Israel with money and weapons, who have committed untold war crimes and crimes against humanity, mostly aimed at the middle eastern people, the people of Palestine. Almost 2 million people are held captive in a small strip of land, denied proper medical care, food, water, oil, and infrastructure. They are reduced to 2nd class citizen status, and Israel runs an apartheid style state. Our support of this system of human atrocity is one of their main grievances against the United States. The founding fathers of the United States warned us against becoming involved in entangling ********s for that VERY REASON. They said "Allies with no nations, trade with all!"

Additionally, we have been meddling in the affairs and politics of middle eastern countries for over 50 years. In Iran, we overthrew their DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT through the CIA, simply because we didn't like who they elected. We installed a brutal dictator, the Shaw, and the people of Iran suffered greatly. We levy sanctions against their countries, which causes them to suffer economically, impacting their quality of life. We have also built bases on their land, which they consider to be their holy land. We think that we can march around the world, doing as we please, with no consequences. The CIA has described the principle as "blowback," and they themselves admit that many of our actions and foreign policy decisions cause a reaction.

If you believe that these people are motivated enough to commit suicide bombings, simply because they "hate us because we are free and prosperous," then you are seriously mistaken. What motivates these people to blow themselves up, is our continuous meddling in their affairs, dropping bombs on their family members, trampling across their holy land, killing their relatives, occupying their countries, and committing untold crimes against their people. If another country did only half of the things that we have done to the people in that region, we would be doing the same things that they are doing! It is imperative we understand WHY our enemy is motivated to do the things that they do, if we are ever going to end the bloodshed.

We have NO authority to police the world. We have NO authority to invade a sovereign country, unless they DIRECTLY threaten the national security of the homeland of the United States of America. Invading Afghanistan was completely justified, invading Iraq WAS NOT justified. The Constitution states that we MUST have a DECLARATION OF WAR made by Congress in order to go to war. We did not have either in either situation. The Emergency War Powers act by the President, are only good for 90 days, at which time he must go before Congress and they must approve or deny the war, and if they approve, they must DECLARE WAR. This was not done. We are seeing the consequences of an undeclared war, they drag out for years and years on end, because we have no clear objectives to accomplish, therefore the litmus test for victory is UNKNOWN.

We ought to start seeing things from other peoples perspectives, and consider how we would feel and how we would react if we some of the things we do to other countries were done to us. How would any of you feel if the Chinese built a military base in your town? How would you feel if they drove around your town in military vehicles, fully armed? What would you do about it? Answer those questions.

I also just read this.

Perfect mate, explains it spot on.

I would have to agree with you.

**cherrydrpepper** · 06-30-2010, 11:42 PM

I'm sorry for your loss. This song comes to mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXDsz0FPnQk

**Skyler** · 07-01-2010, 12:05 AM

These are two videos that I would like everyone to please watch.
Please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az8YM...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ervaMPt4Ha0

Please watch
This is the last thing I will post on this subject.

**40plusnewbie** · 07-01-2010, 08:54 PM

Google 'War Profiteering' It's all about the money bro, but they ain't gonna recruit ppl by telling them a club of uber rich dudes want to get more rich off creating wars, they use 'patriotism' and 'duty' and 'honor' and 'save our freedoms' as motivators to get people to go to war while there is a group of uber rich out there getting mega rich off of wars all around the world.

They own the companies that make the weapons and get the tax payers to pay for the weapons which makes their company rich. They also own the construction companies that rebuild the countries that are decimated and get the tax payers to pay for that too, so they get you coming and going..... not to mention the pillaging of the natural resources of the land they are warring with.

Follow the money. That will tell u all u need to know. U know how much money politicians make on the side off of wars, u think none of them have advance knowledge of who is gonna get contracts so they can buy up shares in the companies?

R the ppl on wall st. scumbags but politicians saints?

**40plusnewbie** · 07-01-2010, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

it's not profitable to win a war quickly.

....+1

**40plusnewbie** · 07-01-2010, 09:05 PM

The 'Iraq War' was won in a couple of days/weeks. Bombs were dropped on all of Sadam's houses, his military supply bases, his military installations, etc. War Won. No army left, no weapons left. we won. Do you think Sadam was gonna climb outa his spider hole and pick up a machine gun and come over to the white house in disguize and shoot the president?

They even stopped searching for those 'weapons of mass destruction' like 5 years ago or something didn't they? lol

**40plusnewbie** · 07-01-2010, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Skyler

If America got invaded, our massive, powerful army, would defend it. Not to mention, our right to bare arms and the 300 million people that embrace that right, along with the overwelming patiotism in recent years would not allow the invading army to make it very far. If by some chance our government was overthrown, it wouldn't change the fact that the people here would continue to defend themselves. If my family was killed, I would have been killed along with them, because they would HAVE TO KILL ME FIRST before they could even approach my family.
In the end, it still isn't the same situation. Was Afghanistan a powerful, proud, and productive country that we for no reason decided to invade?

This is what is called Urban Guerrilla Warfare, it is a centralized army (the invading army) fighting a decentralized army (the population of the usa in all their houses, buildings, etc).

This is what is going on in Iraq now, Urban Guerrilla Warfare, there is an army wearing army clothes and driving army identified vehicles roaming around towns. They are sitting ducks for Urban Guerrilla Warfare fighters.

The same would be true if some centralized army invaded the usa. U have hundreds of troops marching down the street while everyone and their mother is taking pot shots at them from roof tops, windows, etc. U r sitting ducks.

It is much harder to defeat a decentralized army/fighting force than a centralized one. That's why I said the Iraq War was one in a couple of weeks.

Does anyone think that if we just walked away after decimating all of their military and military supplies they would have come back after us and defeated us?