Involved in a really risk situation. Not sure what to do. About getting over suicide.

[Bojangles69]

(I'm aware this is long as fvck but its very detail oriented otherwise you might not understand the type of situation I'm in and give rushed advice, I could REALLY use more perspective on the entire situation in general, thanks)

As long as this post is it should only take 4-5 minutes to read just thought I'd mention that lol.

Theres nothing tangible I can really lose here, but let me explain how this happened.

My dad is real close friends with this guy he's worked with the last 10 years or so. He called me up one day and explained a pretty simple situation to me. Well his friend Jay had a son who was addicted to heroin and wound up hanging himself. Now, the younger brother of that dead son is largely f'd up in the head, and parents fear he may be suicidal too now. And my dad explained:

"you've been through more shit in life than me your own father, and you've managed to turn your life around and change yourself in a way a lot of people can't or don't know how to. I have no idea what to say to this kid or how to help, but he doesn't want to see a therapist, won't talk to his parents or listen to his older sister. I know you have a way with people (bribing me with compliments lol) and I'd really appreciate if you could at least talk to his son".

I figure ok not a big deal. It definitely goes against what I would normally do, but it sounded like a simple enough situation and I was confident I could help. But I was also naive because I should have not tied myself to this situation w/out knowing the full details, and the full details I got from Jay the dead sons father. When I heard them I instantly backed off, and was explaining to the father the rationale of why it would be a bad idea to "help". The father literally starts choking up on the phone and goes on to basically beg me to at least try. I agreed, and have been nervous as fvck this whole week now tying myself to a situation with such a high degree of risk involved.

This is a crisis situation, and situations like this require WAYY MOREE help than any one person can give.

Let me explain the details and I know this is getting long but I really could use advice here. Turns out the sons suicide isn't the only suicide in the family. The fathers brother aka the sons uncle also killed himself. I think "great, suicide runs in the family". THEN the father goes on to explain that both himself and his wife suffer from depression and are both on antidepressants (thats actually pretty rare to have both parents on them). And that their 15 year old son also suffers from depression but isn't on any medication for it. So of course I wonder whether the depression was triggered by the death of their son, or whether it existed before that. The father tells me the family was always like that even long before the son killed himself.

I immediately realize I'm in a fvckd up situation now and shouldn't get invovled. But the story gets longer. 2 months before this kids brother killed himself his grandfather who was the only positive influence he had (grandfather apparently didn't suffer from depression) dies of cancer. So the kid lost the only decent romodel he likely had. THEN 3 weeks afterwards, this kids fvckn dog gets hit by a car and dies. I literally looked up at the sky when I heard all this shit and thought "nice one god", almost like he's playing a joke on me or some shit.

So ok the older son who was 18 at the time of his suicide, was on heroin, had a dead uncle by suicide, dead grandfather who was the only optimistic person in the family, and then of course the dog dies. And the icing on the cake is not only does this kid have to deal with addiction/death/trauma at such a young age, but he now has to go on living with 2 parents who are clinically depressed. WHAT THE FVCK. You ever really wonder how some people take their lives or why? Well 95% of the time you don't know the details. Sometimes there aren't any details, but a lot of times there are, and its more than obvious why this kid couldn't cope.

So now we are left with 18months passing by and they have 1 son left. There is also an older sister who is 30 but lives out the state (I wonder why lol) and occasionally visits. But from what I can tell she may be the only one in the family with some common sense. I do believe depression is a disorder, but I still largely believe its a disorder of thought and only thought. Its been proven time and time again that low seretonin or brain chemicals in general don't automatically make a person depressed. Lots of people have depleted neurologies, but don't suffer from depression. Also, positive thinking has been shown to be capable of reversing low seretonin/dopamine/endorphins, as well as negative thinking causing the opposite over time. So I always tended to believe due to this and some other reasons I don't have the time to mention, that depression is more a disease of the spirit, and the way you think in general. This family has all the notable signs of a battered spirit. The father is passive and puts everything "in the hands of god" emotionally speaking. Its good to have faith, but if you really think gods doing to pull you out of depression and make you happy in life then you are deeply mistaken. The mother is in a massive denial about her own son being dead, and the husband said sometimes she talks about him like he's still alive. The 15 year old picked up on this behavoir instantly, and refuses to accept the fact not only that his brother commited suicide, but that he was also using heroin.

THAT was the reason they initially wanted me to go over. To explain to the kid that suicide doesn't make a person weak and that drugs don't make a person bad. The older sister tried explaining this 2 weeks ago and the son threw a dish across the room and locked himself in his room, THEN refused to go to school for 2 days.

Anyway, this family is about as fvcked up as they come. But they are also rather good at hiding it too. They said they'll do anything they can, but as of now the kid doesn't wanna see a shrink or take meds. And I think because the kid subconsciously understands that his parents need to change, otherwise no shrink in the entire world is going to help anything untill that happens. Whats the point of 45mins of therapy just to go back to living in a cementary with your depressed parents? And thats the other detail I didn't mention. The son killed himself in the same room these people are preserving and walk by every single day. The house IS literally a cemetary.

And I know why they're doing it too but theres no way to explain this shit to them. Its known that when someone commits suicide, and that someone had A LOT of problems/flaws in life, that families tend to hold on to the grief longer in a way of idealizing the dead person. Like "yeh they were fvcked up, but the longer I stay sad, the less I make it seem like they had problems because I can't stop missing them.. so they couldn't have been that flawed a person". Its largely subconcious but when someone dies, having accomplished a lot in life and having been a noble upstanding person, families tend to get over those things wayy quicker as theres no reason to wanna live in lies. They can fully actualize their lost one as a good person, rather than need to deal with regret of all the things they didn't do to help... a person who really needed it the most.

So here I am. These people are expecting me to go over there tommorow when they get back from church so I can talk to thier son. But how am I suppose to do ANYTHING for this kid, when his romodels for depression are his own parents? I talked to the kid and his behavoir is the same distant/apathetic/burnt out shit his parents do. He doesn't even seem to know when its appropriate to smile during a conversation. And that is soo fvcked up. I talked to him briefly and was trying to be humorous, and you could see the kid would smile in an akward way, then quickly readjust his entire demeanor out of the discomfort of not knowing what good emotions feel like (thats what I'm assuming really, I've seen it before). Kinda the polar opposite of when you tell a generally happy person something bad, they get anxious or don't know how to act. Yeh, depressed people get anxious around happy emotions. That shits deep if you think about it.

But I am not a therapist. I'm a passionate person who believes you don't wait for problems to go away before you can start living life and being happy. You MUST start living life first, and FIGHT to BE HAPPY everyday you wake up, untill your problems eventually start to fade. It doesn't matter if you aren't happy, because you will never find a reason to even wanna be happy unless you are able to prove to yourself you're willing to do w/e it takes. I can romodel a new paradigm for this kid and take him out into the world to give him a new outlook on things. And I can reframe every negative thought he has. But then the reality will quickly become that I am doing things his parents should ALREADY have done.
I am being strong to offset an entire family dynamic of depression. And the second I'm not there for the kid, and his parents are (which will be a lot lol) is the second the kid slides back into comfortable behavoir. I'm sure to some degree if his parents see their son doing good, they'll feel stronger and more grounded themself. But how THE FVCK am I suppose to explain to these parents that THEY are likely 90% of this kids problem? They're asking me why their son tried making a plaque to honor his dead brother and broke down completely and couldn't do it. The kid wouldn't even go to school and this was just like 2 weeks ago. Sure it hasn't even been 2 years yet but he is merely copying his parents behavoir. The majority of kids his age, who had strong parents as romodels, would be able to do something like that w/out leading to such a traumatic crisis. Sure its natural to be sad, and sure its natural to wanna cry when we do something like that. But the first day that kid refused to go to school after that his parents should have fvckn forced his ass. Instead, they tell him its ok and he can take some time off.
I asked what the kid did while he was home and they said play video games for basically 48 hours straight only stopping to sleep in between. Its obvious video games provide an excellent way for this kid to escape. But his parents are only continuing to teach this kid helplessness. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see shit like this. This is such a kind, down to earth church going family, but they have NO IDEA what the word strength means.

So what do I do lol? I can't not go there tommorow so its out of the question even trying. But I have a lot of obvious fears. Number 1, this kid and his entire family need serious family counseling. Number 2, if this kid gets attached to me, he's going to have too many voids that I can't fill. Sure I can fill some of them, but once his romodel of strength is gone (I can't devote my entire life to his wellbeing naturally), the fall downwards back to depression is going to be that much steeper and traumatic. Same way depressed people usually kill themselves shortly after something good happens. I'd be in a horrific situation if that ever happened.

But then what? Refer him to a shrink? For what? So a shrink can tell him for the next 10 years of his life that depression is a normal emotion but also a "disorder"? Just so this kid can grow up attaching every single aspect of his families depression to his own identity? I mean he's young and still has a chance, but he's also had a lot of conditioning done at 15. This kids only hope is staying as positive as he can for 3 years then going to college and getting the eff away from mommy and daddy. And that would then force me to in a way turn him against his parents. Even if I became a "friend" of some form for those 3 years, and was somehow able to teach him how his parents were teaching him how to be helpless, I still didn't do anything for the parents.

It would be nice if the whole family could get their act together for the benefit of all those involved. But I don't think I'm going over there to even talk to the mother. The father said she is too stubborn/ignorant and her denial is the only thing keeping her sane (or so he believes). The father is able to realize to a degree that in a way he is responsible, but too much realization can go the other way and cause that much more guilt regarding the suicide. Both parents care most about their son getting help, but I still think I need to confront the parents a bit. I'm just too paranoid about this entire scenario. I'm not sure what my role should be. I was asked to help and at one point was seriously thinking about just dropping off papers to refer professionals to help instead. But like I said thats not "helping" as I myself define it. Thats creating the illusion of help. And therapy is largely useless anyway as counselors hate telling people "I have the answer to all your problems, GET UP AND FVCKN DO SOMETHING and STOP living in denial". Instead they're taught to not even give advice. Wayy to confrontational and not conducive to the therapeutic process lol.

Then I don't even wanna get into how useless medication is. Everyone just needs a romodel or genuine friend who will call you on your bs and motivate you to be strong in life. Thats really what it comes down to. "Ok your sad, so what do you want to do, sit inside this depressing fvckn house all day and play videogames.... or go to the beach and sit in the sun and listen to waves crash? or go to the gym and get all that negative energy out? The reality is as complex as life sometimes can be, the solutions to so many of our problems are often not that complex. Thats just MY opinion though. Either way, if you were in my situation, what would you do?

I can make referals to a lot of people/groups I know. I can run a bs pseudo therapy session while I'm there and give them some insight into the greiving process/depression. Or I can try to engage the kid and go more the friends route. Show the family they are just as much to blame (if not more) than the kid, and show them why. Maybe they wouldn't be so angry if I at least explained why? I'm not sure. I just am not sure how to go about this. Any advice would really be helpful. And if anyones ever been through an unfortunate thing like suicide, or even just the death of a loved one, I'd like to know your thoughts as well. Thanks! - Bo

[Tigershark]

To be perfectly honest Bojangles it sounds like to me this family all has a bi-polar disorder. It would explain a lot of what is going on. Not wanting to deal with reality, the depression, and the suicides.

The reason for preserving the room is to try and hang onto what was lost I get that. When my father passed away we came home after the funeral and my mom boxed up everything of my dad's except some photos and jewlery and donated all of it to the Vetern's Hospital the same day. I was pissed at her and didn't get it at the time but about a week later I did. If my mom would not have done this she would have made a shrine to my father and never moved on.

This family all need to get diagnosed by a professional. My gut is telling me it's bi-polar.

[stack_it]

Really messed up situation you've been put in. It seems like this family is so far gone that chance for improvement is bleak. I would go more of the friend route. Don't let te kid think that whatever he tells you you're just gonna relay to his parents. He has to trust you. That's not gonna happen in one visit but you can lay the groundwork. Put thoughts of friendship in his head but don't push it. Just get the idea there. We create our reality around ideas so putting positive ideas in his head is where you need to start.

Maybe eventually try to get him into hobbies other than video games. The gym, sports, ju jitsu, anything that has peer to peer interaction. He needs confidence in himself so give him the opportunity to build it.

Don't turn him against his parents but don't take there side either. You need to stay neutral and let the parents know that whatever he tells you will stay between you and there son until you have helped there son build the strength to open up to them himself.

A couple years ago I had two friends kill themselves within two weeks of eachother. Both completely unexpected and heartbreaking to the entire community. It's one of the hardest types of deaths to deal with because of the often large number of unanswered questions. We know one of the guys hung himself over his gf. The other one showed no sign of depression and was not abusing drugs. His relationship with his gf and family were fine and there was no note left. With the right attitude and support the only other medicine is time.

[BgMc31]

I'd avoid the situation, brotha. Tigershark is right. Seems they seriously need professional help.

[Bryan2]

I would sit them all down individually or together.

Let them each know that you have been asked for help in the situation.

Let them know that you are NOT a professional and you needed help and advice in how you would go about the situation you have been put into.


And then let them read this thread as what you have seen from an outside source...

[lovbyts]

I have to go on the side of being cautious. It's easy to get so wrapped up in something like that you end up loosing yourself. You could end up getting trapped in the middle and not have time for your own life anymore. It's a tough call. Everyone copes with loss differently. I was going to go into my own situation but it would probably take as long as yours to explain. LOL

I cope with loss by staying distracted, travel, living life instead of hiding or becoming depressed. Everyone needs to grieve but you also need to see it as a reason to live and not keep waiting until tomorrow.

If you get involved I agree with getting him interested in other things as quick as possible and hopefully he will build a network of friends so you will not be his only safety net and become his new brother.....

[paulzane]

I think that it is virtually impossible to bring a depressive person up. You are more likely to become more depressed if you elect to take this situaton on. It always seems that it is the lowest common denomonator that prevails and that you can't bring a depressive up!

Good luck if you take this project on!

[Times Roman]

I became involved in a very beautiful young lady many years ago. Watched her grow up, went in the military, came home, and she was all over me. She also had a serious coke problem, and so, being the benevolent gentleman that I am, I was going to help her with her addiction. Over time, we became engaged, but her coke problem became my coke problem, and things went south from there. We called it off one week before the wedding... best thing I ever did.

I agree with Paulzane.... lowest Common denominator usually prevails.

[Flagg]

Do you want to save this one kid or the whole family, because the latter is surely impossible and a waste of your time and recources.

Is he financially stable? Could he afford to move out of home if he wanted to? Prehaps recommending he get his own place would be good for him, not to get away from the parents although that is the key reason, but tell him that he needs a new challenge in life, and not only will this distract him but will change everything about him.

Remember, if he responds to you, he'll lean on you and begin to use you as a crutch. If you want him to be a happier person, that's cool, but I expect he'll lean on you so is that an issue for you?

[thegodfather]

Bo, the situation you are referring to with clinically depressed people usually killing themselves after something "good" happens, is similar to the reason the anti-depressants can often cause people who are suicidal to follow through. Often times, those who are clinically depressed are in such a delapidated depressed state, that they physically CANNOT commit suicide, they essentially lack even the will power or determination to commit suicide. What happens when you put someone who ponders suicide constantly, on an anti-depressant? You elevate their mood just enough (when first building up blood plasma levels in the body) to literally, give them the will power and determination to actually commit suicide. The most dangerous time for a person who is clinically depressed, is the 3-6 weeks that the body is building up plasma levels of the drug to the point at which it becomes effical. During that period, they can still be in a depressed state, intent on suicide, and be given just enough energy to commit to their suicidal thoughts.

You're playing with fire, opening yourself up to liability, and potential mental anguish of your own if this kid commits suicide after you speak with him, whether your doing so has anything to do with him doing it or not. You of course understand that you are not a licensed psychologist, and lack the training to effectively counsel someone with SO many variables in their life as far as depression and the other confounding variables which even further complicate this poor kids situation. I think your best course of action, would be to focus on THE FATHER, and convince him that he needs to be A FATHER, and get his son professional mental health treatment for his son. That would be the best way that you can help all parties involved, without putting yourself at risk.

[lovbyts]

Bo, the situation you are referring to with clinically depressed people usually killing themselves after something "good" happens, is similar to the reason the anti-depressants can often cause people who are suicidal to follow through. Often times, those who are clinically depressed are in such a delapidated depressed state, that they physically CANNOT commit suicide, they essentially lack even the will power or determination to commit suicide. What happens when you put someone who ponders suicide constantly, on an anti-depressant? You elevate their mood just enough (when first building up blood plasma levels in the body) to literally, give them the will power and determination to actually commit suicide. The most dangerous time for a person who is clinically depressed, is the 3-6 weeks that the body is building up plasma levels of the drug to the point at which it becomes effical. During that period, they can still be in a depressed state, intent on suicide, and be given just enough energy to commit to their suicidal thoughts.

You're playing with fire, opening yourself up to liability, and potential mental anguish of your own if this kid commits suicide after you speak with him, whether your doing so has anything to do with him doing it or not. You of course understand that you are not a licensed psychologist, and lack the training to effectively counsel someone with SO many variables in their life as far as depression and the other confounding variables which even further complicate this poor kids situation. I think your best course of action, would be to focus on THE FATHER, and convince him that he needs to be A FATHER, and get his son professional mental health treatment for his son. That would be the best way that you can help all parties involved, without putting yourself at risk.

I think that is one of the clearest and best explanations of why anti depressants can cause someone to commit suicide I have read. Good points.

[bushido3374]

Bo,

I read your post and my heart goes out to you. I cringed several times while reading it. I honestly believe that I'm not qualified to give you any advice, since advice is often relative (to a person's values and priorities). You're very knowledgeable and experienced, but even experts disagree on any given subject- and are still human, and are subject to emotional involvement, which distorts their perspectives.

I'll only tell you what I'd do in this situation, since I think some of our values and perspectives are comparable. I think you're more than capable of sorting things out eventually, although you'll likely already have visited the family by the time you read this post.

My first counselor (and one of my most profound mentors) once explained to me that only a minority of his clients were able to make the changes that they hired him to help them with. He told me that life changes were more difficult and painful than most people knew. These changes took more time (years, sometimes a lifetime) to make, with constant back-sliding and setbacks.

I asked him if the job ever got him down. He told me that he had to learn how to set boundaries and separate his emotions from theirs. He did what he loved doing, and needed to empathize with clients during sessions, but had to learn how to leave the trauma in the office when he left. It's the only way he could be happy without carrying around all of their pain and suffering.

"I offer them the tools to do their own work," he told me. "The rest is up to them. I can't do it for them. They have to decide- I'm just here to support and teach them along the way."

I see your scenario as a no win situation. You're obligated out of a sense of loyalty and love for your father, who doesn't understand the dynamics- he just desperately wants to help his friend. If you do follow through (and you will, because you care), I hope you understand going into this situation that you will not be able to save this family. It can only save itself- and so far hasn't (couldn't).

This is going to be a challenge of courage, patience and emotional resilience for you. If you do this for your father and the family, please remember that you're essentially making an emotional/spiritual sacrifice for something that you believe in. If you do have an influence for the positive (in varying degrees, it is possible to an extent) the benefit to the family will be gradual and realized in increments. You cannot "save the day" in this case.

If I were in your shoes, I'd prepare for this emotional challenge similarly to how I prepared for one of my MMA matches. I'd summon all of my courage, focus mentally on my objective, use the courage and strength necessary to give my best performance, and then learn from the situation afterward. Then comes the recovery. I get taxed with such difficult emotional situations.

I really hope this works out for you, Bo. I can tell you really care and want to help.

[Bojangles69]

Wow I wasn't even expecting 1 person to read that mess but I can't thank you all enough for taking the time to respond. And to write out thoughtful messages like you all did too.

I tried preparing for what I was about to encounter but noticed nothing was really helping so I just decided to listen to youtube vid after youtube vid of teenagers talking about depression lol. And as I was listening my mind just kept generating responses so I might be a bit more flexible when I went into the house to actually talk to this kid.

So anyway I knock on the door and was immediately hit by this overwhelming dark cloud the second I walked in. It wasn't how the house looked but all the lights were dim, and the all members of the family seemed to just be hanging out. Like literally sitting around doing nothing. No tvs on, no radio, no stimulation, I guess they were really just waiting for me but it was nothing you see when you walk into a "normal" household. The parents seemed tired, and when the son came out he did NOT speak 1 word the whole time initially. He was a bit chubby, wore glasses, his hair was a mess, and his face was devoid of any type of expression at all.

I was throwing out conversational hooks and bs small talk, then quickly realized that wasn't why I was there. And I got them to first open up about how their dog died right before the son. They had explained they took all 3 dogs for regular lymes shots, and their sons favorite, the smaller "cockapuggle" (cock/pug/beagle mix) immediately had a bad reaction. By the time the dog got home, it was already paralyzed and yelping from pain. Apparently lymes shot are meant to prevent lymes, but for some dogs it will actually lead to an outbreak of lymes disease itself. I felt confident at this point knowing I myself had battled lymes (me and my dog caught it one day jogging in a forest), so I was well aware of the neurological effects/pain it causes. And had explained to them how I lost the ability to move my jaw, as well as move my right foot. It was just random paralyzation and was awfully scary. Not to mention the effects of hallucinations and mixed senses (like scratching your leg and feeling it on your back, lymes can sometimes "mix" senses like LSD does".
Anyway they called the vet, and this idiot rather than prescribe antibiotics for lymes like most vets would to fight it, tells the family the dog needs a second shot. The family had the common sense to protest this idea after what the first shot did, (how can drs be this stupid?) and 2 days after bringing the dog home after that second dose proved fatal. At this point the kid put his head against the wall to cover his face, and began to sob while simultaneously trying to hide it from me. I figured this was a good time to bring up his deceased brother, which was when I asked "so how long was this before your son passed?". They told me a few weeks. Then further explained how Ian their son, had also lost his grandfather 2 months before the dog died. And it was a slow painful death by cancer. Then they breifly explained the death of thier son, and I noticed how uncomfortable is was making their other son and starting getting a bit ballsy.
I asked them if they could leave the room for a while so I could talk to their son. They actually wound up getting in their car and leaving the house completely lol. Rather trustful of them to leave a nonprofessional alone with their son who's in a crisis. But I took this as a sign they were just that desperate and asked the kid if there was a comfortable place we could talk.

We got sit down in his den, and I'm at a loss for words. This kids in BAD shape. But I can't stand to look at his face. It wasn't the crying that got to me it was beyond that. Just the way his face muscles twitched when he did cry. Thats sometimes a sign that a person has been crying so much that their muscles are actually exhausted from all the work. Like your legs shake after a killer squat session or w/e. Well anyway this kid was hard as shit to talk to. For about 20mins I kept saying in my head "this is going nowhere, I can't lock in on one fvcking topic with him". So I played the freeze out game they teach you in therapy. Its like a force akward moment. I shut up and changed my body language so it wasn't so relaxed. And I randomly shifted my eyes on and off of him. The fact is no matter how shy a person is, almost anyone would rather talk then sit in silence while you akwardly throw glances at them.

And I lol'd a bit when he opened his mouth and actually began to throw what would become his first tangent. And just like that the proverbial flood gates began to open. It was still difficult having a conversation but he was at least responding. I brought up topics that weren't too heavy at first, that most kids would respond to. Like "is it hard living with your parents?" Or "what do you think about most peers your age"? These are loaded questions that I find teens almost always like to answer. Then I slowly took him back to his deceased brother. Thats why I was there, and god did he fvckn hate talking about it. His parents had explained to me how his sister came by to try telling him WHY his brother commited suicide (not how as he knew he wrapped a noose around his neck) and that was what caused the son to flip out and throw a dish at his sister, then not go to school for 2 days.

I'm thinking "great, lets make sure no dishes are around for this". But more seriously, my job was to actually tell this kid WHY his brother killed himself. Not once had anyone in the family been able to tell the younger brother it was heroin related. And because he was a bit older now they thought he should no as it might help offer closure. I thought it would be smarter to first get a feel for how he feels about his sister. And quickly realized there was some weird condescending shit going on with her when she told him and a total lack of patience for another persons grieving process.
As he explained it, she was loud and combative in the way she tried to tell him. He said that he merely told her "now is not a good time", and she instantly flipped out and starting yelling "WHEN is a good time? Its never a good time!" etc. Then continued to talk about it anyway at which point he freaked before she could actually mention the heroin.

I told him straight out "your sister sounds like a bitch, if that was my sister I would have thrown her instead of the dish". Risky to make statements like that but he lightened up immediately. I was obviously not a traditional advice giver of any kind. And it became obvious the hostile attitude he had towards her. But I asked him "I know this is difficult for you, but would you mind explaining to me exactly what you know about your brothers death?" And he said "I don't really know a lot, he seemed like a happy person most of the time, and all I know is he hung himself. We were really close, but I still don't believe he would do that."
I asked "do what".
He said "hang himself".

Then I said "why is that hard for you to believe? Do you think people who commit suicide are weak?" And he replied "yes, and my brother wouldn't do that". This was my chance to break through to him. And I explained very clearly, using a passionate tone of voice, an immensely strong man I once knew (my best friend) who had killed himself. I made absolute sure this kid had no reservations about how strong this guy was. Then I turned it onto his brother, and reiterated it using his brother as an example. "Your brother rescued animals for a living right? And did it for free? Owned his own website and sacrificed his entire house just to take in and rescue animals? Do you think thats what weak people do? Your brother also taught you how to play football right? And he was a great player himself wasn't he? Does that sound like a weak person? What evidence other than his suicide do you have to believe he was weak?"

And then he drops the bomb. "Well, my parents don't know this, but I overheard one day that he was using heroin, and thats why he really killed himself".
I'm thinking WOW, you see. Kids are NOT stupid. They hear EVERYTHING. His own parents had no idea he already knew this. Thats the whole reason I was there. The kid just pretended that he didn't so he didn't have to talk about it. And I sensed he didn't want to talk about it because it was too hard for him to understand how someone could be strong, yet still have an addiction. But rather than clutter this thread with the actual dialouge, I just continued to reframe his thoughts one by one. And I did it in a way to preserve his autonomy. Basically meaning there was not one conclusion I reached for this kid, he would come to all the answers himself. Otherwise if I did they wouldn't be answers, more like forced beliefs which just makes a person that much more resistant.

It was hard but I asked him "do I look like a weak person to you? and if I DO TELL ME I DO as I'd be more offended if you lied". And he said something like "no... you actually remind me of my grandfather". Not knowing what that meant I asked, and he stated "my grandfather was one of the strongest people I know". It was perfect. Then I explained how I struggled with drug addiction myself, and how I tried killing myself twice during that time of my life.
The kid seemed fully engaged at this point. I don't think he was expecting all the curve balls I was throwing at him.

We went on and on and although I was doing 95% of the talking I was finally able to communicate with him. We talked about girls and he told me how ever since his brother died he doesn't think about them anymore. How he use to play football and all the things his bro tried teaching him that he just has no more interest for. And I asked if these things reminded him of his brother and he said yes. That in fact almost anything reminded him of his brother. It was so fvckn sad and I had to battle just to keep a straight face. Like here I am with this kid and how fvckn unfair the hand he was delt. I told him no kid his age should ever have to go through the shit he did. And the fact that he was sitting there talking about it all proved how ridiculously strong he was. He even mentioned how anytime he fed his pet lizards he'd think about his brother and wanna cry. Because his brother bought him his first lizard. And spoke about how he always wanted to work with animals but was scared he couldn't do it anymore because it would always remind him of his bro.
What a shame what this kid had been through. I told him "look, its totally natural for all these things to remind you of your brother. And its just as natural to feel sad about it. Noone has the right to tell anyone, especially you how you should grieve over your own brother. But you need to understand that this is NOT what he would have wanted for you. He taught you about animals to show you how to be a selfless person. And for now on when you are reminded of him, remind yourself that its OK to think about him. You DON'T always have to feel sad. You CAN also feel happy that you are carrying on his legacy. You can feel happy that you are not avoiding things he really would have wanted you to do. And most importantly once you realize that you can infact think about him, w/out it always leading to sadness, you can tap into the strength that your brother himself was trying to teach you. Thats all he wanted was for his little brother to be happy and strong in life. And don't let depression take all those positive memories away from you".

I just went on and on and eventually it turned into an all out motivational speech. At the end I got out of my chair, stood up 1 foot in front of him, locking eye contact 100%, and addressed him w/out blinking once. I just find when other people don't blink it has a weird way of drawing me in to what they're saying. Like they're so interested in the conversation with me they forget natural automated biological processes lol. But I gave the kid my number and a final word about life. I told him "look, I already told you this but your story moved me like nothing else I've ever heard in my life. I was real nervous about meeting you, and am glad you didn't choose to play the silent game with me. If ANYTHING ever pops up, if kids are giving you a hard time at school, teachers, if your angry at your parents or your sister, if you're ever just sad about something and want to talk YOU CALL THIS NUMBER. I will go to your school and make those kids regret it for the rest of their life. I will show you how to cope with life and have a little bit of faith in yourself. I will show you how to start living life again".
And it was so cliche and cheesy but it was really the tone I think that got to him. He knew I wasn't just spitting some bs and meant every word that came out of my mouth. He started to tear a bit and I wasn't sure why, but I think in some way (or hope in some way) that he felt a bit relieved.

Then we left the room and I noticed it had been 3 hours since I came over. I talked to his parents for a bit more, then the father asked Ian if he wanted to go practice driving for his permit. Ian agreed with a hint of excitment in his voice. The father shook my hand and left. And when he walked out with his son the mother began crying. I asked "whats wrong?" and she told me "his father had been trying to get him in that car since his b-day in early december. And he would always say he wasn't in the mood for it". It hit me like a ton of bricks at that moment and I had to turn my head away from her, then as I turned my head back towards her she saw I was crying too. It caught me so unexpectedly, and she gave me a hug and nearly squeezed the air out of my lungs. I realized there was no turning back now, and told her I'd be back next sunday just to get her son out of the house.. maybe we'd go play mini golf or something.

I walked out of that house not feeling too cocky. Theres no way to be sure what will really happen. But what I do know is the kid is reaching that age where he will be going out to find a job soon. He told me he wants to work at a petstore down the road but was resistant about it reminding him too much of his brother. I see the kid genuinely loves animals, and its my goal as of now to make him comfortable about the job. To make him understand whether he works there or not he's likely to be around animals his whole life. And avoiding them just because his brother is surely not the way to go. So maybe if I can get his self esteem up a bit, and model a more optimistic outlook in life, he might stand a chance. Although my goal is to get him to focus on college a bit more as his grades are typically Cs. I realize its the depression and apathy doing that, but he really needs to invest in his future more than just getting a parttime job.

I was really hoping it would be a one time thing. And yeh I'm going to wind up sacrificing a few hours every week and a couple phone calls when life is already hectic enough. But if I walked away from that situation just leaving them a bunch of #s to call I'd feel like a pos. Things like this don't pop up too often, and I'm sure theres lot of other kids in this world going through shit, but I'm bound to learn more about myself than this kid will learn from me. So in the end its really not a "lose-lose" situation like some have said. I'm not trying to replace his older brother as noone can do that, but I am trying to show him something different in life. And if he sits in that house in that type of environment any longer, isolating to the degree he has, I see him either using drugs himself really soon, or winding up in a mental hospital of the sorts. All the kids faculties are largely in tact, and I think with enough effort I can definitely help the kid a lot. Guess we'll see how it goes. And thanks again everyone for the advice!

[lovbyts]

I'm trying to think of what to say except Wow. Looks like you should become a professional but the hard part would be not becoming to disconnected because it's a job.

Sounds like you had a good talk and connected on many levels. Good job of convincing him his brother was not weak. Hopefully he will (as you said) invest in life and get on track.

[thegodfather]

This is not my area of expertise at all, so I'm not going to comment on the specifics of any of it, except to say goodjob Bo. What I do want to point out though, is that Bojangles is an example. He is an example of the DIFFERENCE between someone who picks a major and "muddles" through it, just to get a rubber stamped B.A. or B.S., and someone who picks a major and FULLY IMMERSES themselves into it. Someone who embraces their major, and goes above and beyond simple regurgitation of this weeks testing material, but actually MASTERS the material which is studies. Very likely, he studied much more material than he was required, because he demonstrates such a profound mastery for the subject matter. People should strive to be the latter rather than the aforementioned.

[bushido3374]

Damn, I'm honestly surprised and please at how that scenario turned out. This is exactly the reason for going into a situation that seems really hopeless initially. There's always a chance to make a difference somehow- and you saw an opportunity to provide some strength and courage in the form of mentorship and hopefully will help the kid in the long run. I have no doubt that you're glad to be able to come through for your Dad. I really respect your decision.

[paulzane]

WOW........ Bo you truely are a saint!

And you made me weep you cvnt!

(I must be getting soft in my old age!)

[stack_it]

Bo you have no idea how much respect you have earned from me for doing this and handling it the way you are. It sounds like you've made a connection with this kid and I hope that things just continue to get better. I'm sure there will be setbacks along the way but don't give up on this kid.

[optimus]

You sound like a straight up dude Bo. The fact that you took the time to talk to this person to try and help him out through his dark times, shows tons about your character. I take my hat off to you.

[MACHINE5150]

That was a long read but worth every minute.. I already knew you were gonig to go this route before i even finished reading your first post.. You and I have a lot in common and will not just "look the other way" when someone needs our help. Unfortunately, 90% of the world will just look the other way as they "do not want to be bothered" Opportunities like this do not arise very often, and will never arise for most people, as it takes a certain type of person to take on this kind of task. But if you allow it to develop into a friendship/mentor-ship you will get WAY more out of it than you ever put in.. in fact you will get a better "pump" from it that you will ever get from going to the gym. I am interested to see how this develops. Please keep us up to date as things progress.