our healthcare system just broke me

[gixxerboy1]

I've been trying to dig myself out of debt since be laid of for 5 months and not collecting unemployment. I have an autoimmune disease that really doesnt bother me often and when it does it take prednisone which is cheap and fixes me in a week.
So last week it starts bothering me and i take my pills but im low. I call the pharm and i have no refills. They contact my dr and they are on vacation and the pharm is waiting for the dr covering to call. I run out of pills and the pharm wont give me any to hold me over.
I just moved and got new health insurance, the primary care dr my insurance gave me isnt taking new patients. I call my insurance they call around the soonest they can get me an appointment was next week. They advice me to goto those walk in clinics. They are covered. I goto 2 of them. Neither will help me since what i have requires long term care. I go back to the pharmacy explain again and beg and they wouldnt give me any meds to hold me to they hear back from my dr.
So i end up in the emergency room hoping to get a script and leave. Since my condition worsened from not being on the meds they admitted me. I spent the last 3 days in the hospital. Still feel like shit and left with a script i originally wanted.
I spoke with my insurance company today. They will not cover the hospital bill because i had a laps in coverage and its a preexisting condition. So god only knows how much a 3 day stay in the hospital is going to be. 10-15k all this for a script that cost $12 with no insurance.

Bankruptcy here i come

[scorpion62]

Sue the Dr ass gixxer its all his or her fault that you ended up in the hospital in the first place,Dr they dont have a clue I asked mine if I could self medicate after all sort of practice meets and a nures that cant give injections worth a fvck who by the way has to show me how to do it right lol

[Shol'va]

Sorry to hear that Gixxer, but here is what you need to do. My neighbor is 24 years old and quit her job because she has gained too much weight. She loves her fast food. She weighs about 400 lbs. Well her doctor has put her out on Disability due to her weight and social security just approved it even though she has only paid into the system 6 months. Yep being overweight is a disability. So just gain weight and file for social security disability. That way you'll get a guaranteed income till 65 complete with all medical.

[Shol'va]

Boy Gixxer just writing that article to you has stressed me out. I'm going to check and see if stress is an eligibility also. lol

[gixxerboy1]

lol. I have to figure out something. Sad part is if what i had was worse i could be disabled for it. Years ago when it was bad i was on temp disability for it. I'm not supposed to drive when it bothers me.and have double vision. I really dont have a choice. I wear an eye patch when i drive now so i dont have double vision.

[Hoggage_54]

I have a room you can rent up here in Canada...

[gixxerboy1]

I have a room you can rent up here in Canada...

bunk beds or are we sharing?

[brad1986]

lol. I have to figure out something. Sad part is if what i had was worse i could be disabled for it. Years ago when it was bad i was on temp disability for it. I'm not supposed to drive when it bothers me.and have double vision. I really dont have a choice. I wear an eye patch when i drive now so i dont have double vision.

hmmm im going to have to strat doing that when i drive drunk lol

[Hoggage_54]

bunk beds or are we sharing?

$300/month for bunk beds, $400/month for spooning

[LGM]

Sucks bro. Check with the hospital and tell them the story. They will usually reduce the amount owed for hardship cases, and in some cases eliminate it all together. You can also make really small monthly payments ($25 or so a month) and usually after a year or two, they will just excuse the remainder. I've had a few friends this was done for, and I've gotten hardship exemptions in the ER myself.

Either way, good luck.

[Carnivor]

When you walked into the emergency room did you think you were covered or who did you expect would pay the bill? Its a bit confusing to understand.

And why didn't you give the person in the ER your insurance card and have them sort insurance out before you were admitted? I don't know what your condition was but it doesn't exactly sound like an "emergency" as all you needed was a script for a very common medicine. Tons of people have prednisone in their cabinets for poison ivy first thing I would have done was called around and seen if I could get lucky. But seriously I had my foot hanging onto my leg with nothing more than skin and waited 18 hours before going to the ER because its well known hospitals are expensive. When I got there my foot was blue and I told them I did not want care unless they knew for sure it was covered. It was. I got care.

I don't mean to be a dick but this could have easily been avoided. Anyway my cousin did the same thing over a hives breakout and was suprised to find out it wasn't covered. His bill was around 8 grand for 2 nights I believe. He called the hospital and told them he was unemployeed and simply did not have the money (which was a lie he had the money and was working fulltime). I saw him when he was on the phone and he must have called the hospital about 6 different times to negotiate down the price. Did not know you can do this but he got it down to only 3 grand. So you can negotiate the bill if you call. At minimum though verify that the lapse of insurance was when you were actually at the hospital because insurance companies are known to bs just to save money. And I believe you can also file an appeal with your insurance. Gluck.

[DSM4Life]

Gixxer call your new insurance company. Some companies cover you even when there is a lapse in coverage when changes insurance. When i changed insurance the new insurance company couldn't cover me until they received the HIPPA form (takes a week)officially stating that i was no longer covered (from my old insurance company). I asked what if i get sick or in an accident in that week. He said it would still be covered as long as they eventually got the form.

[Shol'va]

Just don't forget to read the fine print on that form before signing.

[Stickman123]

Most insurance companies have "negotiated rates" with hospitals. They don't pay anywhere near the full price of the bill. I think hospitals jack up the price knowing that there is room for negotiation. So definitely work that angle, whether you file for BK or not.

Sorry to hear about your situation. Hope you feel better.

[jimmyinkedup]

When you walked into the emergency room did you think you were covered or who did you expect would pay the bill? Its a bit confusing to understand.

And why didn't you give the person in the ER your insurance card and have them sort insurance out before you were admitted? I don't know what your condition was but it doesn't exactly sound like an "emergency" as all you needed was a script for a very common medicine. Tons of people have prednisone in their cabinets for poison ivy first thing I would have done was called around and seen if I could get lucky. But seriously I had my foot hanging onto my leg with nothing more than skin and waited 18 hours before going to the ER because its well known hospitals are expensive. When I got there my foot was blue and I told them I did not want care unless they knew for sure it was covered. It was. I got care.

I don't mean to be a dick but this could have easily been avoided. Anyway my cousin did the same thing over a hives breakout and was suprised to find out it wasn't covered. His bill was around 8 grand for 2 nights I believe. He called the hospital and told them he was unemployeed and simply did not have the money (which was a lie he had the money and was working fulltime). I saw him when he was on the phone and he must have called the hospital about 6 different times to negotiate down the price. Did not know you can do this but he got it down to only 3 grand. So you can negotiate the bill if you call. At minimum though verify that the lapse of insurance was when you were actually at the hospital because insurance companies are known to bs just to save money. And I believe you can also file an appeal with your insurance. Gluck.

Welcome to the forum...
Suggested Reading: How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie
*LOL*

[gixxerboy1]

Gixxer call your new insurance company. Some companies cover you even when there is a lapse in coverage when changes insurance. When i changed insurance the new insurance company couldn't cover me until they received the HIPPA form (takes a week)officially stating that i was no longer covered (from my old insurance company). I asked what if i get sick or in an accident in that week. He said it would still be covered as long as they eventually got the form.

i faxed them the hipa form from my old insurance today. The lady told me it would reduce the time for the pre existing condition clause but i will still have one. So at this point if i need to follow up with a neurologist they wont cover it either

[brad1986]

damn gixx good luck

[gixxerboy1]

When you walked into the emergency room did you think you were covered or who did you expect would pay the bill? Its a bit confusing to understand.

And why didn't you give the person in the ER your insurance card and have them sort insurance out before you were admitted? I don't know what your condition was but it doesn't exactly sound like an "emergency" as all you needed was a script for a very common medicine. Tons of people have prednisone in their cabinets for poison ivy first thing I would have done was called around and seen if I could get lucky. But seriously I had my foot hanging onto my leg with nothing more than skin and waited 18 hours before going to the ER because its well known hospitals are expensive. When I got there my foot was blue and I told them I did not want care unless they knew for sure it was covered. It was. I got care.

I don't mean to be a dick but this could have easily been avoided. Anyway my cousin did the same thing over a hives breakout and was suprised to find out it wasn't covered. His bill was around 8 grand for 2 nights I believe. He called the hospital and told them he was unemployeed and simply did not have the money (which was a lie he had the money and was working fulltime). I saw him when he was on the phone and he must have called the hospital about 6 different times to negotiate down the price. Did not know you can do this but he got it down to only 3 grand. So you can negotiate the bill if you call. At minimum though verify that the lapse of insurance was when you were actually at the hospital because insurance companies are known to bs just to save money. And I believe you can also file an appeal with your insurance. Gluck.

i expected my insurance i pay a fortune for to pay it. Besides my co-pay and deductible of course. Yes prednisone is a simple cheep medicine that fixes me usually but doesnt change the fact what i have is a disease that can be serious with out meds. I have required meds before that were 20k threatments. But that is rare. That is why they admitted me. The er did check my insurance and it's valid. Thats all they check.

[Shol'va]

Hey Gixxer hurry up and get on disability. In addition to being covered medically, I also found out that you would be eligible for a free cell phone with 70 minutes per month, every month, courtesy of the government.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/bar...ell_phones.htm

[TBrah]

damn bro hope you get everything sorted out

[Twist]

The doctor should have had some sort of answering service or something. I have never heard of a doctor who goes away and can't help their patients. If that is the case I would talk to a lawyer. We have some docs on this site, hopefully they can help.
I hope you vote for Obama lol.

[Matt]

$300/month for bunk beds, $400/month for spooning

Lmfao....

[Matt]

Well i don't like the state my country is in at the moment and i hate the people running it but hell im glad we have the health care system we have over here because stories like this are scary...

[Lemonada8]

I hope you vote for Obama lol.

I hope thats sarcasm...

as for Gix, did you get the number for the covering doc? is you doc in a group? if so, then speak to one of the other docs in the group because they have much faster access to your chart and should be able to respond quicker. and for the walk in clinics, they tend to avoid giving scripts because they have no follow-up policy. and just argue with insurance, they are all cheap asses who dont wanna pay shit.. but then again, there are so many drug seekers goin to the Er for their benzo/opiate fix then walk out.
oh and dont let insurance make ur doc appts, u get the list from them of the docs they use and make ur own appts. You will have much easier time getting in.

oh and the comment about suing the doc, is why healthcare is so damn expensive in the US. yet lawyers arent rich and they deserve their money, blah blah blah. and you wouldnt win so dont waste ur money

[gixxerboy1]

I hope thats sarcasm...

as for Gix, did you get the number for the covering doc? is you doc in a group? if so, then speak to one of the other docs in the group because they have much faster access to your chart and should be able to respond quicker. and for the walk in clinics, they tend to avoid giving scripts because they have no follow-up policy. and just argue with insurance, they are all cheap asses who dont wanna pay shit.. but then again, there are so many drug seekers goin to the Er for their benzo/opiate fix then walk out.
oh and dont let insurance make ur doc appts, u get the list from them of the docs they use and make ur own appts. You will have much easier time getting in.

oh and the comment about suing the doc, is why healthcare is so damn expensive in the US. yet lawyers arent rich and they deserve their money, blah blah blah. and you wouldnt win so dont waste ur money

my dr isnt in a group. She had someone else covering her practice i guess. I left messages for the covering dr. but they were just slow returning the calls. They actually did refill the script but it was after i was already in the hospital.

I did try and make my own appointments from dr's i found on blue cross's website. But since i was a new patient there was a wait to get it or some werent excepting new patients. That is why i tried my health insurance company. I hoped if they called a dr would do something to squeeze me in.

[Hazard]

Don't feel bad gix..... idunno if you saw my post in another thread but me and the wifey had a laps in coverage..... 33 days to be exact and the law is 31 days for something to be considered pre-existing. So our "condition" isn't covered..... and is going to cost us over 10g's easy.....

With that said.... i'll address the osama.... errr.... I mean "Obama" comment. (that may have been a little out of line ) Obamacare IS NOT the answer and unfortunately will cause bigger problems down the road. I'm not going to get into this debate right now.... theres already a good thread on it..... but the real issue right now is the insurance companies. They wont cover you because you had a lapse in coverage durring the last 12-18 months..... forcing you to goto the emergency room. You had to stay for 3 days...... making the bill ridiculous with no coverage. This happens to A LOT of people and they have to claim bankruptcy..... now these bills wont be paid and the hospital will lose money...... futher fvcking the healthcare system. The hospital can't operate in the red (figuratively speaking) and they drive the cost of supplies and other stuff up..... charging insurance companies more money......

Just to clarify gix..... not blaming you brotha..... i'm in the same boat.

~Haz~

[Twist]

If we all had healthcare stuff like this wouldn't happen. Idk the details of Obamacare enough to say that is the right way but plenty of places do it well.

[Hazard]

If we all had healthcare stuff like this wouldn't happen. Idk the details of Obamacare enough to say that is the right way but plenty of places do it well.

Healthcare is not a "born" right like freedom of religion...... it's a service. The thought of everyone being covered sounds great but there are other reprocussions to this. While our healthcare system is broke for sure..... it's standard of care is pretty high compared to the rest of the world. I do think SOMETHING needs to be done..... I just don't believe a universal healthcare plan is the right way to go. Maybe since healthcare is NOT a right..... we should offer more affordable plans with less perks. Not everyone gets chronically sick...... most people need coverage to guard against that accident..... or the broken bone. How often does that really happen? I think the government is really getting in the way here...... they can't run the fvcking postal system correctly and we're going to expect them to be able to handle healthcare? haha.....

~Haz~

[Hazard]

Another issue we have is the older generations with medicare who have weekly "social" doctor visits...... There was a show on it with John Stossel (funny mustache guy) - Those old bitties said they were entitled to it. They enjoyed seeing their friends at the office once a week. When asked about the younger generation and how this is going to affect them..... the old woman replied "thats their problem..... I paid for this..... I'm entitled"

~Haz~

[Flagg]

Perhaps it's just that I dont live in America, but I just dont understand how you're the only country in the Developed world that doesn't have universal healthcare. It almost makes it sound that people are dying by the millions in hospitals everywhere else that are using 18th century technology while everyone in the US are made 100% better with Star Trek like tech.

Being charged thousands of dollars because someone had a unforseen accident? I'll never understand that, not in a million years.

By saying "its a service, not a right" sounds like another way of saying "its a means of making money over someones unfortunate circumstances".

[Panzerfaust]

Welcome to America. "Yes we can"

[oscarjones]

American healthcare sucks and so does captain america

[Hazard]

Perhaps it's just that I dont live in America, but I just dont understand how you're the only country in the Developed world that doesn't have universal healthcare. It almost makes it sound that people are dying by the millions in hospitals everywhere else that are using 18th century technology while everyone in the US are made 100% better with Star Trek like tech.

Being charged thousands of dollars because someone had a unforseen accident? I'll never understand that, not in a million years.

By saying "its a service, not a right" sounds like another way of saying "its a means of making money over someones unfortunate circumstances".

While I understand your point..... what makes you think you are born with the right to be treated by someone who paid THOUSANDS to be trained in how to care for you. People get sick..... people get hurt..... it's life. You have very few guaranteed born rights..... healthcare is not one of em.

Why should I pay 50% (just a guess) of my paycheck in taxes for healthcare when i'm paying A LOT less than that now? Why should I be FORCED by my government to purchase healthcare? Other than for accidents - it'd be cheaper to not carry health coverage. A doctor visit typically costs about $150 here in the US..... a typical script for an antibiotic can be had at walmart for $4. So that doctor visit for a cold would cost me $154 once or twice a year. Now lets just assume I make $50,000/yr...... and they tax lets say 1/5th of that for universal healthcare (though i'm sure it'd be higher) - That doctor visit, assuming I don't have any major problems that year, would then cost me $10,000. Thats not fair in any way you look at it.....

As far as the universal system working all around the world...... it does to an extent. There are problems with every system and universal healthcare has issues also. Look at our fvcking government though...... I can't remember the name of the thread but someone posted the info of how many US government run agencies are operating in the Red. Yet we expect them to be able to run healthcare? What if it fails? We wont be able to go back......

~Haz~

[Hazard]

Here's a thread on our healthcare bill.....

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ight=obamacare

~Haz~

[SlimmerMe]

ps: One big reason universal healthcare works in many countries is because of a MUCH lower population than the USA; hence easier to manage.

And yes I agree with Haz, look at the post office. Go stand in that line as you swat flies and you will get an idea of what's ahead....

[Hazard]

Posted by thegodfather from the thread above:

Health care is NOT A RIGHT

The most important reason to be against this bill is because health care is not a "RIGHT." In the United States, we have rights which are enumerated in the bill of rights. They are all "negative freedoms," meaning they are a list of things that the government is RESTRAINED from being able to do. Freedom of speech, the government is restrained from being able to infringe upon it. The right to bear arms, the government is restrained from being able to deny people the right to own firearms. Search and seizure, the government is restrained from being able to search a person, their home, or their vehicle at will. It is set up this way, because you are assumed to be BORN with these rights, you are endowed with them by your creator, therefore the government cannot "GIVE" you your right, you already have them. All that the Bill of Rights does, is acknowledge these rights as existing, being ordained to you by your creator, and a written document that says that your government can never take these rights away.

Therefore, it is impossible that you are "BORN" with a RIGHT to health care. Health care is a SERVICE, and it is a service that must be PROVIDED by another person, a skilled person that we call health care practitioners. If we conceded that you have a "RIGHT" to health care, we are essentially saying you have a RIGHT to that persons service for free, or perhaps at any rate YOU wish to pay them, but which they have no control over. Therefore, you would automatically be infringing on the rights of that person to choose who they offer their service to. You don't have the "RIGHT" to own a house, or the "RIGHT" to a job.

Additionally, it is morally wrong if the government steals my money (taxation) in order to pay for your health care. The only original two approved types of taxation were excise taxes and apportioned taxes. Excise taxes were on certain goods like cigarettes, gas, etc, that a person could opt out of by not smoking or riding a bicycle. Apportioned taxes would be redistributed among the people equally after they were collected. Un apportioned taxes, are those which end up being spent on social welfare programs. It is important to reject any notion of "moral hazard" or "social responsibility." It is not an individual citizens responsibility to have their hard earned income stolen(taxed) in order to pay for another citizens health care, housing, or food. That is not compassionate. This is what charity in our society is for.


I am likely going to get a lot of "emotional" responses to what I've said, and likely they will be from uneducated people who have not studied these issues in depth to know that, all social welfare programs given enough time fail(they go bankrupt, and then NO ONE gets services), and that innovation and progress slows down significantly when there are no large profits motivating research and development of new drugs, technologies, and practices. It is unfortunate, many have bought into the propaganda that we are "BARBARIC" if we do not guarantee health care to every citizen by stealing the income of other productive citizens in order to pay for that health care.

HEALTH CARE IS NOT A RIGHT

[Hazard]

ps: One big reason universal healthcare works in many countries is because of a MUCH lower population than the USA; hence easier to manage.

And yes I agree with Haz, look at the post office. Go stand in that line as you swat flies and you will get an idea of what's ahead....

You'll like this post by Sparhawk

*a.. The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775. You have had 234 years to get it right and it is broke.*

*b.. Social Security was established in 1935. You have had 74 years to get it right and it is broke.*

*c.. Fannie Mae was established in 1938. You have had 71 years to get it right and it is broke.*

*d.. War on Poverty started in 1964. You have had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.*

*e.. Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. You have had 44 years to get it right and they are broke.*

*f.. Freddie Mac was established in 1970. You have had 39 years to get it right and it is broke.*

*g.. The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before. You had 32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.*

*You have FAILED in every "government service" you have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars.*


*AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM? *

*IT'S NOT ABOUT THE NEED FOR GOOD HEALTH CARE, IT'S ABOUT TRUSTING THE GOVERNMENT TO RUN IT!*

[Flagg]

Is he trying to say Health Care is not a right? :P

You have to remember, someone going through Medical School over in the UK will have to attend 4-7 years at University, and seeing as university fees are increasing from 10K to nearly 30K a year, Doctors graduating over here will still have a lot of debt to pay back.

And call me naive, but I thought the whole point of being a Doctor was to help people. If it's done for status, money...then I think those are pretty poor reasons to be one. Rights be damned, if someone is bleeding out, are they supposed to be ignored because no one knows if they have cover?

You talk that Healthcare is a service, not a right...that's like saying, every time you call 911 and ask for other the police or the fire department, they could say "well, we'll come out to you, but have you got the green?" , im not sure how your police and fire departments work over there, but arent they also a service? Can you imagine if a police operator said to you on the phone "Ma'am, im sure your husband is chasing you round the house with a knife, but we're a service, not a right. Good day".

It's not my place to say how the American government should spend it's money, but don't you think you spend way, WAY too much money on Military defence, when that could be put towards improving Health Care instead?

In the world we live in now, and the precarious financial situation of the U.S., surely people are not going to be in a position any more to pay for Privatised HealthCare any more?

[Twist]

I agree with Haz and Godfather but unfortunately that is not how the system works. I agree the system is broken but that's because our politicians are broken. That's a subject for another thread though.

We ALREADY have universal healthcare for everyone. Especially those who can't afford to purchase it. Instead of going to the doctor for a cold poor people or uninsured end up going to the emergency room instead. This costs 10x as much.

Haz you have no health insurance so when you get into an unforeseen accident you should be left on the curb to die because there is no way you will be able to cover the bill? Or you should just be able to go to the hospital and declare bankruptcy when you can pay the bill? OR, should you be paying into something because you might need it later on (social security, car insurance etc)?

I agree it needs to be done right and the chances of that are small but that's just because our elected leaders can't do their jobs.

[Hazard]

Is he trying to say Health Care is not a right? :P

You have to remember, someone going through Medical School over in the UK will have to attend 4-7 years at University, and seeing as university fees are increasing from 10K to nearly 30K a year, Doctors graduating over here will still have a lot of debt to pay back.

And call me naive, but I thought the whole point of being a Doctor was to help people. If it's done for status, money...then I think those are pretty poor reasons to be one. Rights be damned, if someone is bleeding out, are they supposed to be ignored because no one knows if they have cover?

Great point..... people become doctors to help other people. Now lets just say the younger generation of "future doctors" see's that the ammount of money they can make from such services is limited. It's no longer up to them to charge what they want..... what incentive would these kids have to go on to medical school if their income could be limited? There will always be those people who become doctors because they feel it's their calling like TGF said...... but once you cap how much a service can cost..... it's going to have reprocussions.

You talk that Healthcare is a service, not a right...that's like saying, every time you call 911 and ask for other the police or the fire department, they could say "well, we'll come out to you, but have you got the green?" , im not sure how your police and fire departments work over there, but arent they also a service? Can you imagine if a police operator said to you on the phone "Ma'am, im sure your husband is chasing you round the house with a knife, but we're a service, not a right. Good day".

Funny you bring this up...... Over here we have both paid and "volunteer" firemen. I live in a town were we have a volunteer fire department. If the fire department needs more resources..... our taxes go up. We pay for their "services" either way.....

Just because I own a house and it catches fire doesn't mean ANYONE has to help me put it out. Why is it someone elses responsibility? I'm not saying we don't need fire departments because i'm glad we do but these services aren't god-given or born rights.

Regarding the police.... yes they are a service also. They are paid by the taxes taken out of my pay check. They are public servants and have a duty to do the job we citizens pay them for.

I'll make an analogy that fits my case better...... Look at private investigators. They aren't paid by taxes taken from the citizens but they can be especially useful in solving cases when the police have put the case into the cold case files. Should I contact him and ask him to look at my case and not charge me for his services because I'd really like to find my famillies killer? Should he perform his services for free just to be a "good person" when he also has a familly to feed? He offers a service that he is particularly good at..... even an expert one would say. He should be compensated for that expertise and not expected to perform it for free or for what I feel like paying him because I feel it's my "RIGHT" to know who killed my familly.


It's not my place to say how the American government should spend it's money, but don't you think you spend way, WAY too much money on Military defence, when that could be put towards improving Health Care instead?

I don't disagree.....

In the world we live in now, and the precarious financial situation of the U.S., surely people are not going to be in a position any more to pay for Privatised HealthCare any more?

I don't wanna come across wrong..... I feel for those who don't have healthcare. I myself had no coverage for a while and currently for the next few days still don't. I'm also in a shitty situation with my wife and a pre-existing condition. I DO think something needs to be done..... but I think we need to explore all options because I truely don't believe universal healthcare will work in America. Unfortunately..... by the time we find out..... it'll be too late.

Flagg - I like talkin with you It's great to have different points of view!

~Haz~