Why are Americans so afraid of health care?

[thegodfather]

this could not be more fauls! lol were did you hear this???? my best friends father is a doctor and thats not how it works....there are no "2nd tier" doctors lol

Did you seriously just reply to my factual analysis of the Canadian health care system with "My best friends father is a doctor" ? Well shit, why didn't you say that earlier, surely that makes you an expert, and my extensive research of healthcare policy in the United States and abroad must be rubbish. I made a pretty clear point in my post about using ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE as a basis for an argument, which is what you're post consisted of. You are talking about PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, or the experiences of OTHERS. However, my opinion is formed by quantitative and qualitative anlysis of the healthcare system of the respective country I'm speaking of.

[lovbyts]

Did you seriously just reply to my factual analysis of the Canadian health care system with "My best friends father is a doctor" ? Well shit, why didn't you say that earlier, surely that makes you an expert, and my extensive research of healthcare policy in the United States and abroad must be rubbish. I made a pretty clear point in my post about using ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE as a basis for an argument, which is what you're post consisted of. You are talking about PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, or the experiences of OTHERS. However, my opinion is formed by quantitative and qualitative anlysis of the healthcare system of the respective country I'm speaking of.

hahahaha Go get him, I though that was funny when I read the post myself when he said "My best friends father is a doctor" Isn't that sort of like my brothers best friends cousins girlfriend step brothers teacher knows someone who...... LOL

[Hoggage_54]

I work in finance in a Canadian hospital. Doctors can charge fees for delisted services, which are mostly cosmetic procedures.

[Hoggage_54]

oh and the canadian thing. you guys do come here for the health care. we go there for the cheap medicine. stop denying it.

Many Canadians do go to the US for health care. We have agreements with hospitals all over the US where if the service is not available or the wait is too long, we can send them to a US hospital if they are able to take the patient, and vice versa. This happens a lot in small border towns where the provincial health care will pay for the patient to get services from a nearby US hospital, and Americans can come over if they live in a small town and get services from a Canadian hospital.

[Swifto]

Canada has a two-tier system of healthcare. In Canada, you do have a national healthcare system, but doctors also have the ability to OPT OUT of that system, and take fee for services rendered. What this invariably creates, is a two-tiered healthcare system, whether the Canadian citizens realise it or not. The brightest, most talented Physicians tend to opt out of the public system and go on a fee for service system because they can make such a substantially higher amount of money than if they stay in the system. So, those who cannot afford to pay for their own care, or purchase private health insurance, are stuck using the national health care system, and seeing the 2nd tier doctors who are not talented and bright enough to offer their services for cash. This is a significant problem with the Canadian system. Involving government bureaucrats in the administration of healthcare is a disaster. Quota systems, and rationing of care is a substantial problem in the Canadian system. Members posting that they had good experiences with the system does not mean it is empirically good, it means they have had personal experiences (we call this ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE) as opposed to bad ones.

The United Kingdom's "NHS" is also plagued with its own set of problems. In the United Kingdom, their doctors do not have the ability to "OPT OUT" and they have attempted to eliminate the situation of two-tier healthcare. I beleive this to be a fundamental violation of the service persons RIGHT to collect a fee for their services, that THEY deem appropriate, not a set amount that the government decides to pay you for your services. This inevitably discourages the most intelligent and talented people from going into medicine, if they know that their income will essentially be fixed for life. It encourages them to go into more lucrative fields, where there is a higher earning potential. Of course, you will have altruists who will argue that people "should go into medicine because they care about helping people, not because they want big paychecks." Ok, you can say such things, and they might make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, but that is not reality. Statistics prove that the brightest and most talented individuals gravitate to where there is a high earning potential. Two important aspects of the UK's NHS that you should be aware of (or afraid of)....

1) There are number of administrators in the NHS outnumbers the number of healthcare practioners. Yes, they have a system where there are more chiefs than indians.

2) There are more MRI machines in the state of Ohio, than in the entire country of Great Britain.

These two facts serve to show a few things. One, government bureaucracy has created a system of wastefulness where there are more administrators than practioners. That is scary if you think about it, imagine a police department, where there are more Lieutenants and Captains than there are Patrolman on the streets. The number of MRI machines serves to show the rationing of care and wait times that are inevitable in a "National Healthcare System."

Excellent summary.

So why has France got it right then?

[awms]

Did you seriously just reply to my factual analysis of the Canadian health care system with "My best friends father is a doctor" ? Well shit, why didn't you say that earlier, surely that makes you an expert, and my extensive research of healthcare policy in the United States and abroad must be rubbish. I made a pretty clear point in my post about using ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE as a basis for an argument, which is what you're post consisted of. You are talking about PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, or the experiences of OTHERS. However, my opinion is formed by quantitative and qualitative anlysis of the healthcare system of the respective country I'm speaking of.

alright alright that was a horrible rebuttal I will admit haha but I do have a good understanding of how health care in canada works since I am canadian.

The Canadian governments have considerable authority over the services the private sector can deliver and so a doctors cant just do what ever he wants in his own practice. Most doctors in canada have their own practice so in that way they are independent but the government pays the bill at the end of the day.... for example when I had gyno surgery a plastic surgon was the one who cut it out and she had her own practice but the government paid for 100% of the surgery because it was from puberty and caused pain. As Canadians we have the option to pay for small things like MRI's blood work ect ect if we want to speed up the process but most people just put it threw health care because the wait is only about 2 weeks v.s a couple days.

[Twist]

Who cares if it is two tiered? That's great. Let the people who can afford it pay for excellent doctors and make everyone else use normal (still good as they have to meet standards) doctors. This way there are no uninsured running up costs.

I agree with one simple statement above. Get the government involved and it will be fvcked like everything else they run.agreed I agree with Haz on many/most of his points also. Those of us who have it, who pay for it dont like to pay for the people who can also pay for it but are to lazy or the ones who cant but have other options. We worked to find the jobs who offer health care. It's part of our salary package we agreed to and it's being eliminated but yet costing us more at the same time. No more choice.

People who are uninsured still run up costs AND get treatment. Why is everyone pretending that we don't give everyone healthcare already? Doctors do not refuse treatment! Uninsured people still get healthcare.

[zaggahamma]

Who cares if it is two tiered? That's great. Let the people who can afford it pay for excellent doctors and make everyone else use normal (still good as they have to meet standards) doctors. This way there are no uninsured running up costs.

People who are uninsured still run up costs AND get treatment. Why is everyone pretending that we don't give everyone healthcare already? Doctors do not refuse treatment! Uninsured people still get healthcare.

makes sense to me..

but this is not what the current presidency solely wants??? does any of our current politicians have a plan similar to this one?

[thegodfather]

Who cares if it is two tiered? That's great. Let the people who can afford it pay for excellent doctors and make everyone else use normal (still good as they have to meet standards) doctors. This way there are no uninsured running up costs.

People who are uninsured still run up costs AND get treatment. Why is everyone pretending that we don't give everyone healthcare already? Doctors do not refuse treatment! Uninsured people still get healthcare.

There are a number of ways to reduce these costs. The real problem in healthcare is actually government involvement.
* ERISA, HMO act, etc, passed during the 1970's significantly increased the cost of healthcare.

* Medicare/Medicaid is one of the most deleterious institutions in healthcare, significantly increasing costs.

* Ambulance chasers, and lack of tort reform increases costs, and causes physicians to practice something known as "defensive medicine."

* Government prohibition of price transparency among physicians, practices, & hospitals for services. Without price transparency a free market environment cannot effectively function in healthcare.

It's completely false to believe that the free market has failed healthcare in the United States. This statement is true, because we have not had a true free market in healthcare since the government got involved in regulating healthcare and providing healthcare through a burdensome system of taxation. It would take me pages and pages to address each of the bulleted points that I've listed, and I'm sure I've glossed over some other factors, but those are the most important.

[Twist]

I was talking to my doctor about a year ago about this and he was telling me that he wished he could just charge what the visit is worth. It would never amount to the cash we have to shell out. I see what you are saying.

However, there is regulation for a reason (usually a response). Corporations, when left to their own, do not do what is in the best interest of the population. They do what is in the best interest of them (like lapses in coverage at convenient times). Sometimes the government needs to step in. It's just a shame they never do it effectively.

[gixxerboy1]

There are a number of ways to reduce these costs. The real problem in healthcare is actually government involvement.
* ERISA, HMO act, etc, passed during the 1970's significantly increased the cost of healthcare.

* Medicare/Medicaid is one of the most deleterious institutions in healthcare, significantly increasing costs.

* Ambulance chasers, and lack of tort reform increases costs, and causes physicians to practice something known as "defensive medicine."

* Government prohibition of price transparency among physicians, practices, & hospitals for services. Without price transparency a free market environment cannot effectively function in healthcare.

It's completely false to believe that the free market has failed healthcare in the United States. This statement is true, because we have not had a true free market in healthcare since the government got involved in regulating healthcare and providing healthcare through a burdensome system of taxation. It would take me pages and pages to address each of the bulleted points that I've listed, and I'm sure I've glossed over some other factors, but those are the most important.

I think that is one of the bigger problems.

[Swayze]

The US has a flawed government...the population doesnt trust them with much of anything. We are too big for are own good and one side of our government is always trying to destroy the other side in order to get re-elected. Nothing will ever work well coming from the bloated lobby infested federal government in DC

[Hoggage_54]

Some of my best friends are American...

[JohnnyVegas]

Also swifto..... look at it like this......

You have the OPTION to purchase health insurance. There are A LOT of americans who have the money for health insurance but they spend it on dumb shit...... these people rant and rave how they want universal healthcare so they wont live in debt after an accident.

we DO have options out there but a lot of people like to claim they are fvcking broke and pray that they don't have an accident. Instead of buying their Venti Double espresso latte's at starbucks - they should save the $150/month and buy a fvcking insurance plan.

~Haz~

Correct a mundo!!!! No health insurance, but a $180 a month cable bill, two financed cars at the maximum they can afford, eat lunch out every day, $80 a month for Starbucks.

[lovbyts]

No to get this off track but a simple way to cut about 1/3 of the medical cost it to make it legal that anyone without proper ID is subject to an immigration investigation during or immediately after treatment depending on severity and subject to immediate deportation if it's discovered they are here illegally. Yeah it opens a whole can of worms but it's a start.

[zaggahamma]

No to get this off track but a simple way to cut about 1/3 of the medical cost it to make it legal that anyone without proper ID is subject to an immigration investigation during or immediately after treatment depending on severity and subject to immediate deportation if it's discovered they are here illegally. Yeah it opens a whole can of worms but it's a start.

that isnt a requirement already?????????

[lovbyts]

that isnt a requirement already?????????

You are joking, right? It's against the law (who made this stupid law) to ask for proof of citizenship. All they have to do is say they have no ID on them, make a fake name and they are good to go.

I took my daughter to urgent care yesterday due to ulcer problems and her throwing up blood, yeah she is OK now more or less. While I was in there 3 groups of people came in with no ID, no insurance and were seen. Did you know if someone has a headache (like one of these people did) they will see them and give them Tylenol or ??? free of charge that end up costing you and me $50 + the visit vs them paying $6 OTC? Nice. Oh and I paid my deductible where these people had none.

[zaggahamma]

You are joking, right? It's against the law (who made this stupid law) to ask for proof of citizenship. All they have to do is say they have no ID on them, make a fake name and they are good to go.

I took my daughter to urgent care yesterday due to ulcer problems and her throwing up blood, yeah she is OK now more or less. While I was in there 3 groups of people came in with no ID, no insurance and were seen. Did you know if someone has a headache (like one of these people did) they will see them and give them Tylenol or ??? free of charge that end up costing you and me $50 + the visit vs them paying $6 OTC? Nice. Oh and I paid my deductible where these people had none.

yeh a little but a little sarcastic..lol..

i thought it was against the law alone for not carrying id??????? or is that if your driving? idk....seems black and white if you dont have id and your asking a hospital to treat you that would be needed unless emergency..

glad your daughter is fine bro...that hits home with me