47%

[Metalject]

and i dont own my own business and pay that in taxes. So whats your point? everyone would love to pay less. Who the hell wouldnt. I would like to pay less for my place, I would like to pay less for my cars. But they are what they are. Shit needs to be paid for. Everyone paying 10% in taxes isnt going to pay the bills.

I don't know man. I'd be a big fan of a true flat rate tax system. Everyone pays 12-15% of their income across the board regardless of what you make. Hard to see how that wouldn't bring in more than enough money.

And the issue people have with high tax rates (people like me) is that the money is wasted. My nearly 30% isn't improving much of anything and often what it's spent on is crap. That's the big issue.

[gixxerboy1]

I don't know man. I'd be a big fan of a true flat rate tax system. Everyone pays 12-15% of their income across the board regardless of what you make. Hard to see how that wouldn't bring in more than enough money.

And the issue people have with high tax rates (people like me) is that the money is wasted. My nearly 30% isn't improving much of anything and often what it's spent on is crap. That's the big issue.

I have no clue how that would actually work number wise if everyone paid 12-15%. I would be surprised if that brought in enough but im just guessing.
And i do agree we piss away a ton of money on BS. But that is both parties that do that.

[gearbox]

Also look at the polls for Mass? Why is the state out of play for Romney if he did such a great job?
actually im not a democrat. But if its Obama or the cast of clowns the Republican's ran this year its Obama.
Yes he bowed. Thats standard culture. So have other presidents. So he should be offensive to a leader of another country?
Not even going to comment on the apology tour. That has been discredited many times buy lots of people, except fox news.

What about Romney complete lies, missleading comments. changing his stance every week.
I dont like everything about Obama but i dont trust anything Romney says.

I would rather a list of Republicans then Obama or Romney. Its just sad that the GOP base has gotten so crazy that any good candidate knows better not to run or cant pass the beginnings of the primaries

I actually agree with almost everything you said. His past state is still 75% democrats I think thats why.
Yes mitt has changed his stance a lot and I do not trust him like I would like to.
Obama has done a horrible job plain and simple.
I guess I think mitt is less of the two evils and you think Obama

[gearbox]

And great comment on the gop! Thats very accurate

[Metalject]

I have no clue how that would actually work number wise if everyone paid 12-15%. I would be surprised if that brought in enough but im just guessing.
And i do agree we piss away a ton of money on BS. But that is both parties that do that.

Art Laffer has some good info and stats on flat tax rate. We know how much money everyone makes, so it's not too hard to figure out what the tax revenue would be if everyone was taxed 12-15%.

[Metalject]

I actually agree with almost everything you said. His past state is still 75% democrats I think thats why.
Yes mitt has changed his stance a lot and I do not trust him like I would like to.
Obama has done a horrible job plain and simple.
I guess I think mitt is less of the two evils and you think Obama

Even if you can't stand Romney (not you specifically, I'm saying in general) I don't understand how anyone can defend Obama and say he's done a good job unless the statement is made with some type of emotional attachment.

[frank13]

Republicans are nuts they put these crazy people as the face of the Republican party witch is a huge turn off its a shame that people like buddy roemer don't get any attention i guess that he isn't crazy enough for the Republican party

[gixxerboy1]

Even if you can't stand Romney (not you specifically, I'm saying in general) I don't understand how anyone can defend Obama and say he's done a good job unless the statement is made with some type of emotional attachment.

I can say it because the economy was a shit storm. Is it good now? No. Is it a hell of alot better then it was? yes. I dont understand why people keep saying he did a bad job.
Do people really think all that could have been turned around faster?
Specifically what would have helped more? Or what did he specifically do that was bad?

[gixxerboy1]

Art Laffer has some good info and stats on flat tax rate. We know how much money everyone makes, so it's not too hard to figure out what the tax revenue would be if everyone was taxed 12-15%.

I'll have to look into him. I'm sure it could be figured out easily like you said.
I also have heard of no income tax but a higher sales tax.
I like that for reasons. But can see alot of problems with that also.
Either way our tax code is ridiculous and needs to be simplified and fixed

[frank13]

i wouldn't vote for Romney if u paid me

[gixxerboy1]

i wouldn't vote for Romney if u paid me

everyone has a price.

[frank13]

everyone has a price.

y e a your right if u gave me like 20bucks i probably would

[Metalject]

I can say it because the economy was a shit storm. Is it good now? No. Is it a hell of alot better then it was? yes. I dont understand why people keep saying he did a bad job.
Do people really think all that could have been turned around faster?
Specifically what would have helped more? Or what did he specifically do that was bad?

The debt increasing and the continue weakening of the dollar is a pretty bad thing. The insane spending is the biggest thing. And yes, I know Bush spent too much, I hated that...Obama simply took it to a new level. His incredible waste of the stimulus money was a huge one for me. While I disagree with just about any type of stimulus plan, if you're going to do it at least put the money in places that are more assured to make a difference rather than in wishful thinking. These are all bad things.

I also think the health care bill is a horrible thing...of course, I understand this one is a little more opinion based, but it's hard to justify massive debt and spending as a good thing.

Anyway, just a few very simple examples.

[Metalject]

I'll have to look into him. I'm sure it could be figured out easily like you said.
I also have heard of no income tax but a higher sales tax.
I like that for reasons. But can see alot of problems with that also.
Either way our tax code is ridiculous and needs to be simplified and fixed

Yeah check him out. His stuff is pretty simple and makes a whole lot of sense....which I'm sure why it's not used. After all, no politician likes anything that makes common sense, lol!

And you're right, our tax code is a disaster...it's a joke. I do think if we're ever going to fix it we have to get past the emotional attachments people have towards so many things such as rich should pay more and the poor should pay less. A flat rate is all that truly makes sense. Just like with basic sales tax, you pay X% on goods and services regardless of your individual income.

[JJ78]

Off topic. Sorry. Where the hell do you put the promo code on ar-r to get the 25% off. Sorry to hijack

[gixxerboy1]

The debt increasing and the continue weakening of the dollar is a pretty bad thing. The insane spending is the biggest thing. And yes, I know Bush spent too much, I hated that...Obama simply took it to a new level. His incredible waste of the stimulus money was a huge one for me. While I disagree with just about any type of stimulus plan, if you're going to do it at least put the money in places that are more assured to make a difference rather than in wishful thinking. These are all bad things.

I also think the health care bill is a horrible thing...of course, I understand this one is a little more opinion based, but it's hard to justify massive debt and spending as a good thing.

Anyway, just a few very simple examples.

i can understand those reasons. I think we needed the stimulus but do agree it could have been spent better.
I like the health care. But it does effect me alot.
Curious how do you feel about the auto bail out?

[gixxerboy1]

Off topic. Sorry. Where the hell do you put the promo code on ar-r to get the 25% off. Sorry to hijack

this is the code Steroid25

but for future reference Ar-r has their own section of the board, where you can get answers like this, questions about their products.

[JJ78]

F-ck it i just placed the order. I kno brother. Didnt get an answer had to do somethin appreciate the answer didnt give me the option to put it in

[Metalject]

i can understand those reasons. I think we needed the stimulus but do agree it could have been spent better.
I like the health care. But it does effect me alot.
Curious how do you feel about the auto bail out?

I wasn't a fan of the auto bail out. Yes, it would suck a big one for those people to lose their jobs, no one can deny that, but I believe letting the market dictate winners and losers is the best bet in the long term. I also think companies like GM would have been better served fighting like small businesses are required to. Maybe they wouldn't have made it but maybe they would have, who knows, but you can guarantee they would be smarter about things in the future...if they're getting bailed out they have no reason to be. Look at it this way, if I'm going to be irresponsible with my money but I know every time I go broke you're going to bail me out why would I ever want to be responsible with my money? I wouldn't, you're going to give me everything I need.

I also don't believe it's the job of the government to protect people's jobs or to create them. The role of the government is to protect life and liberty...to ensure there's a free and functioning market that allows people to make it or fail themselves. And if they fail, the liberty to try again. I say that as someone who's not coldhearted, but as someone whose been there before. I've fallen flat on my face financially in the past, nearly destitute. I didn't ask for government help or assistance, this would be hypocritical and pointless when I'm still a fully functioning human being. Now I'm not saying there shouldn't be any type of regulation at all, but it should be limited to protecting blatant fraud and ensuring liberty is upheld, nothing more.

On the stimulus, while I can't support something like that, if it's going to be done I like what I've heard a lot of people say the past wk after hurricane Sandy. That money (if it truly had to be spent) should have been spent on hard infrastructure like updating our power grids and simple things like putting all our electricity underground where it belongs. Not in wishy-washy dreams of green energy...let private innovators work on that type of thing and if the government must spend let them spend on things that we know will work and can serve us now. We all now about the waste with the Solyndra deal and the $3 million turtle tunnel, but then there are things like the $50 million for for the NAPA valley wine train, $30 million given to the AZ Diamondbacks, the $1 million ant study, the giving coke to monkey's study and crap like that....there's hundreds of these things. IMO it's hard to say much of the stimulus was spent on anything worthwhile and if it was it was only a small fraction/percentage of the nearly $1 trillion spent.

[zaggahamma]

I can say it because the economy was a shit storm. Is it good now? No. Is it a hell of alot better then it was? yes. I dont understand why people keep saying he did a bad job.
Do people really think all that could have been turned around faster?
Specifically what would have helped more? Or what did he specifically do that was bad?

he did

[DSM4Life]

I personally wanted to vote for Hillary but since she is no longer an option I will vote Obama.

[ironbeck]

I would like to think that percentage is lower, but its spot on in my apartment building.....these ppl collect checks and sleep till 10am then complain about there food stamps or talk about another new program that they can scam benefits from, all the while I get up every morning and put in a honest days work! Pisses me the fu ck off!! these ppl a hand full I have talked to are collecting checks under fraudulent circumstances and are just plain lazy and they are part of the the reason for the break down of the American way. I even had one say, its that time of month, got to put my act on, then I see him with a cain later that day!! WHat really erks me is these ppl have no intention of bettering themselves and have no guilt or qams about living this way in fact they think everyone owes them something for nothing!!!! and then have enough guile to point the finger at me because I don't want to give them rides or smoke dope with them? MFS

[Metalject]

he did

You're absolutely right. He stated numerous times that if this wasn't all turned around in his first term he'd be one and done.

[Metalject]

gixxer....I meant to comment on your health care bill statement. I understand you like it because it helps you. I't hard not to like something when it helps you. That's why everyone in Greece is pissed off, they had something that helped them and now the government is no longer giving it to them because they're...they had become dependent on the government and now you have a massive population of pissed off people who seem to lack the ability to take care of themselves. The health care bill here in the U.S., sure it might help you and some others now, but it's only going to drain our economy even more and in the long run, this simply isn't a good thing for any one.

[gixxerboy1]

gixxer....I meant to comment on your health care bill statement. I understand you like it because it helps you. I't hard not to like something when it helps you. That's why everyone in Greece is pissed off, they had something that helped them and now the government is no longer giving it to them because they're...they had become dependent on the government and now you have a massive population of pissed off people who seem to lack the ability to take care of themselves. The health care bill here in the U.S., sure it might help you and some others now, but it's only going to drain our economy even more and in the long run, this simply isn't a good thing for any one.

our current system is a drain on our economy. Do you realize how much of medical bills go unpaid? Thats why everything is so expensive because everyone else has to pay for the people that don't. Making people buy insurance isnt gov run health care. Hell the system we have now is more socialist then a mandate. It will take time (years) but i honestly believe it will lower the cost of health care. I dont see how it cant

I like it because i can buy insurance. If i dont have it what happens? If something bad i goto the hospital. I cant pay the bills. It breaks me or the hospital charges you more to make up for it.

[RaginCajun]

i wouldn't vote for Romney if u paid me

everyone has a price.

would 10,000 lbs of turkey bacon work?

[Metalject]

our current system is a drain on our economy. Do you realize how much of medical bills go unpaid? Thats why everything is so expensive because everyone else has to pay for the people that don't. Making people buy insurance isnt gov run health care. Hell the system we have now is more socialist then a mandate. It will take time (years) but i honestly believe it will lower the cost of health care. I dont see how it cant

I like it because i can buy insurance. If i dont have it what happens? If something bad i goto the hospital. I cant pay the bills. It breaks me or the hospital charges you more to make up for it.

I understand what you're saying but it's still going to cost the taxpayer a large amount. Latest CBO estimates have it at $2.5 trillion over the next few years. That's $2.5 trillion more in government spending. It very well may be well intended but we don't have the money...it's just not there.

Maybe this isn't the best example but it's the first thing that comes to mind. If you and I lived next door to each other and my and me and my family were flat broke and starving I'm sure like any decent person you'd help out. However, if your family was starving too and you only had enough money to feed them you would take care of your family and mine would starve....and that's exactly what you should do. If you feed my family you're doing so to the detriment of your own and while the health care bill may very well be well intended, that's exactly what's happening here. Well intended but we can't afford it. Then there's always the issue of forcing people to buy a product and that's something I won't ever be able to get around.

[gixxerboy1]

^^^ as far as being required to buy a product ie insurance i dont see the big deal. If you buy a house you have to have insurance. Rent an apartment, need to have insurance, want a car well yes you need to buy insurance too. So i dont see the big deal in making people buy health insurance.

And i understand your analogy but dont see how it fits.

[gearbox]

I can say it because the economy was a shit storm. Is it good now? No. Is it a hell of alot better then it was? yes. I dont understand why people keep saying he did a bad job.
Do people really think all that could have been turned around faster?
Specifically what would have helped more? Or what did he specifically do that was bad?

Gas prices are still super high. He can authorize drilling on our shores. He says he does which is a lie.
Ppl.say president has no control over gas prices which is another lie. And Obama got a declaration of war without congress approval which is going against the constitution. I am not comfortable with someone who doesn't respect america. And he continues to give aid to any other country when our own is in this economic crisis.

[Metalject]

Maybe it wasn't the best analogy but was all I could think of off hand...was trying to put a simpler twist on it to make my point...maybe I didn't do a good job but I see the issue very similar to my analogy.

On the forced to buy, you're right, you have to buy insurance if you want to buy a car, but no one is making you buy the car. You're doing that by your own free will. If you don't want to be forced to buy insurance, don't buy a car.

[gearbox]

y e a your right if u gave me like 20bucks i probably would

Lol... I would vote for gixxer for $5...Aus would cost $10...link $20.....and cape $100 lol

[gearbox]

i can understand those reasons. I think we needed the stimulus but do agree it could have been spent better.
I like the health care. But it does effect me alot.
Curious how do you feel about the auto bail out?

I agree with the auto bail out. They messed up and I think long term its better for the economy but ppl who run each department will need to be taxed or limitations. Before needing a bail out many were living beyond high and mighty cause of short cuts like real estate.

[gixxerboy1]

Gas prices are still super high. He can authorize drilling on our shores. He says he does which is a lie.
Ppl.say president has no control over gas prices which is another lie. And Obama got a declaration of war without congress approval which is going against the constitution. I am not comfortable with someone who doesn't respect america. And he continues to give aid to any other country when our own is in this economic crisis.

who did he get a declaration of war against?
I agree about the aid, but unfortunitly every president has done it and probably will continue to do it.
the drilling part is see a million different things. That he did increase it, he didnt, he did only on certain types of land. I honestly dont know what to believe on that,
I dont know how the president can effect gas in the long term. Also I know i was paying more for gas in bushes last term then now. And i think the peak price was higher under Bush. I may be wrong. But i still wish it was cheaper either way.

[ironbeck]

The truth is you don't know which lies to believe.......He who has the gold makes the rules, always has been always will be. They have just made themselves invisible and your busy arguing over who said what lies....

[thegodfather]

First off......

Keynesian economic theory has been proven to be an abject failure. So as long as we have a fractional reserve banking system, the economies chances at recovery are really bleak. The problem with central banking is that the interest rates are set at artificial limits, not at market standards. When interest rates are not controlled by the market, but by a cabal of bakers, the rest of the financial system makes investments, bets, buys, sells, etc, based on the artificial interest rates, thus creating a chasm in the system. When we witness boom & bust cycles, we are simply WITNESSING a 'correction' in the system. If we allowed interest rates to be set by the market, via competition in the open and free market, we would see all parties getting the best possible deals, but better yet, they would be getting SUSTAINABLE deals, that would not collapse in on themselves in 5-7 years times once the market realized the inequities created by artificially manipulating interest rates and inflating currency.

With regards to the President and the economy. The President is the commander-in-chief of the MILITARY, NOT the economy. In so much as the President can effect the economy, goes only as far as the bills which he can pass, to help or hinder the economy. In the case of the bailouts and TARP, all that we accomplished was to put a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound, but we gave medicine which was worse then the disease. We rewarded companies who practiced bad business, and said good job, it's called moral hazard. I bail you out this time, and I've thus dis incentivized you to behave responsibly, make smart and calculated business decisions, to hedge and mitigate risk, if I know that you will come to my aide if I become so large that I'm viewed as "too big to fail." Instead of letting the market correct itself, we exacerbated the pain by pumping a trillion dollars of borrowed money into the economy, creating a ton of moral hazard by bailing out bad businesses, and in the long term, making the 'recession' last longer.

The United States was founded on the 'framework' system of government. That's to say that, the governments sole purpose in the economy is simply to provide a framework by which the economy can prosper. Provide a strong national defense, ENFORCE CONTRACTS, provide infrastructure, and provide a SOUND CURRENCY FOR TRADE(which we have failed in tremendously). Is it not the governments prerogative (although it has become so) to create arduous and hefty regulations, restrictions, tariffs, taxes, rules, etc, and so on. These things STIFLE economic growth, not promote it.

There are a number of things which need to happen to stimulate the economy, and BOTH parties are responsible for the damage which has been done. The damage was not done in the past 4 years under the Obama presidency, and it was not done in the previous 8 years under the Bush presidency. It has been a systematic disregard for the advice of the founders, for the respect of the constitution of the United States, and the deviation of just about every value of American economic policy. It is the culmination of overseas adventurism and empire, bloated failed entitlement programs, our penal system and incarceration rate, the drug war, and the list goes on. The founders of this country surely never envisioned a nation where nearly 50% of a persons income was taken from them through Federal, state, & municipal taxes when it is all said and done.

Yes its true, a flat tax is the most sensible system, progressive taxation is a completely unfair system which targets those who are successful. A 10% flat tax ensures everyone pays their fair share. Of course, the best course of action would be to have a ZERO PERCENT INCOME TAX. It is a statistical fact, that if we could bring our annual spending down to year 2000 levels, we could completely eliminate the Federal income tax. There exists perhaps no bigger 'economic stimulus' than to allow American citizens to keep the majority of the fruits of their labor. Imagine what an extra 35% in your pocket each your would mean to you? How much of that would be put back into the economy, quite a great deal, we would see economic surplus like never before. Of course this means making big cuts to our over inflated government. The Department of Education needs to go, it has not benefitted education, and is a wasteful bureaucracy, the Dept of Homeland security, and a host of other 3 letter agencies, roughly 33% of government needs to be cut. All drugs must be decriminalized, freeing up roughly 1,000,000 inmates per year, at a tax savings of $35,000 annually per inmate. If the argument is that a couple of corrections officers an cops are going to lose their jobs because we're no longer going to incarcerate 1 million non-violent offenders per year, I have a simple message for you, GO FU*K YOURSELF! This country is HEMHORAGGING MONEY! We will go the way of Greece and the other EU countries if we do not stem the tide, and make serious cuts to our government, nay, we will go the way of the Roman empire if we do not get serious about making changes to our government. We are at a pivotal point in American history, we must face that American hegemony comes at an untenable cost to American citizens, and many around the world. We can no longer afford to be the lender of last resort, and the policemen of the world.

So I'll end this post with something I think that everyone who took the time to read my post needs to seriously think about. The one thing that must be accomplished in order for us to save our government, and to cut spending is this. People must fundamentally re-evaluate this question, "What the role of the Federal government ought to be?"

[Metalject]

Great post! You're right, the problem didn't start with Obama but he's taken every possible step to enhance the problem. As for the answer to your question, that's a simple one. The governments role is to protect the country from enemies and to protect liberty. To ensure liberty exist. To not infringe on the liberty of others. To ensure all liberty is upheld and the individual is free to exercise it so as long as his actions do not directly infringe on the liberty of another. That's the governments true role, nothing more.

[Honkey_Kong]

I agree with the auto bail out. They messed up and I think long term its better for the economy but ppl who run each department will need to be taxed or limitations. Before needing a bail out many were living beyond high and mighty cause of short cuts like real estate.

I didn't agree with the auto bailout because that didn't really solve anything. Those companies became broke because they did poor business in this economy. Just giving them money doesn't fix that problem.

[xero]

"Hoggage_54:
Let's not forget that the Romney family were welfare recipients. Also, the 47% was a snapshot in time. Included in that number are military personal deployed overseas who are exempt from federal taxes, people who don't even earn enough money to pay federal taxes (but who are employed and still paying federal payroll taxes), the elderly, disabled, students, people who were employed in 2010 but not in 2011... you see how comments like that are so idiotic and insulting to hard working Americans? Don't rip on half the country because a tiny minority of people abuse the system."

Only sensible comment in this thread.

[zaggahamma]

many sensible comments in the thread on both sides its called a debate and there isnt always a wrong and right

[Bonaparte]

All drugs must be decriminalized, freeing up roughly 1,000,000 inmates per year, at a tax savings of $35,000 annually per inmate. If the argument is that a couple of corrections officers an cops are going to lose their jobs because we're no longer going to incarcerate 1 million non-violent offenders per year, I have a simple message for you, GO FU*K YOURSELF!

That part was amazing. lol