Having a debate with about TRT

**tigerspawn** · 05-03-2013, 12:47 PM

Is a person taking TRT still considered to be natty? I could understand them being considered natty if their T levels were low before starting TRT. However, if your WNL before receiving TRT are you still considered natty? There are 23 individuals that have informed me that they are on TRT. When discussing their levels 22 of them had above midrange NL. Four of these individuals had levels that are on the high end of the NL. I had one individual bring in proof that his levels were above NL before starting TRT. They were all told they had low levels and had no idea what the numbers the doctors were giving them meant. Are these individuals still considered natty?

**Lunk1** · 05-03-2013, 12:58 PM

Natty for what? IFBB, Athletics, UFC...what?

**milky01623** · 05-03-2013, 01:06 PM

IMHO

Although the trt restores natural levels its still exogenic test so therefore not natty
That's my 10p :-)

**kelkel** · 05-03-2013, 01:11 PM

It is a bio-identical substance and if within normal levels then......

Tough call. Glass half full, half empty thing...

**LGM** · 05-03-2013, 02:53 PM

I'd say still natty, until the levels fall outside the acceptable norms. Most testing for drugs in other sports have acceptable norm levels; I would assume test levels would fall under the same thing.

**kelkel** · 05-03-2013, 03:53 PM

Scenario:

Say an athlete in his early twenties developed in inoperable pituitary tumor or other malady such as head trauma, etc. that shut down all test production. He then went on TRT to restore normal levels only. Would it be fair to then say he's not natural and has an unfair advantage and therefore exclude him from competitive sports?

**Times Roman** · 05-03-2013, 03:54 PM

No one takes TRT to resume "normal" levels. they take it for optimal levels. nowhere on this planet can a bloke take 200mg/test c/week and think his T levels are "normal" relative to the rest of the population at large.

even my 70mg/test c/week and I still have test levels in the 700's which is still considered at the high end of the range.

so if you are on TRT, you are NOT natty!

just my .02

**kelkel** · 05-03-2013, 03:58 PM

No doubt. Unfortunately not all doc's let patients reside at the top of the scale. So then you would exclude this person from competitive, tested sports TR?

**Times Roman** · 05-03-2013, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

No doubt. Unfortunately not all doc's let patients reside at the top of the scale. So then you would exclude this person from competitive, tested sports TR?

Yes I would. This is how lance Armstrong got into trouble. He was doping (taking test) and kept upping his dose. They saw the gear, but since he had a doctor note....

Natty is just that. What your body produces hormonally.

**kelkel** · 05-03-2013, 04:08 PM

Interesting. I would think a sports entity would then be subject to some form of discrimination lawsuit from the ADA or something. Then again, everybody sues for everything these days. Interesting question. Look forward to more opinions.

**LGM** · 05-03-2013, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

Yes I would. This is how lance Armstrong got into trouble. He was doping (taking test) and kept upping his dose. They saw the gear, but since he had a doctor note....

Natty is just that. What your body produces hormonally.

I thought Lance was busted for blood doping, not necessarily test. He had a problem with EPO.

I know a number of folks on TRT who have docs that won't allow test levels much higher than that lower end of normal; as for the example set above, again, if he falls into the normal range, then he's natty.

NFL allows TRT as long as they fall within acceptable levels, and get permission for it ahead of time.

Edited: He was on test, but test dosages was within the norm for trt apparently(?)... He was blood doping, taking EPO, and HGH.

**tigerspawn** · 05-03-2013, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

Natty for what? IFBB, Athletics, UFC...what?

Guys that I have talked to that are on TRT state they are all natural. They believe they had low levels because Dr. stated they had low levels. They state that they are on TRT in order to get them to the levels that the average male their age would have. They believe that their TRT is different from AAS because, "Juicers have levels of testosterone that are way over what the average male would have."

**tigerspawn** · 05-03-2013, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by LGM

I'd say still natty, until the levels fall outside the acceptable norms. Most testing for drugs in other sports have acceptable norm levels; I would assume test levels would fall under the same thing.

I agree. Even if taking TRT raised their level a little above NL I would consider them natty.

**kelkel** · 05-03-2013, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by LGM

I thought Lance was busted for blood doping, not necessarily test. He had a problem with EPO.

I know a number of folks on TRT who have docs that won't allow test levels much higher than that lower end of normal; as for the example set above, again, if he falls into the normal range, then he's natty.

NFL allows TRT as long as they fall within acceptable levels, and get permission for it ahead of time.

Edited: He was on test, but test dosages was within the norm for trt apparently(?)... He was blood doping, taking EPO, and HGH.

Wow. Did not know that. Interesting! I bet they push the edge of the envelope!

**tigerspawn** · 05-03-2013, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

Natty is just that. What your body produces hormonally.

That makes sense but doesn’t seem fair. If someone has naturally low levels and TRT helps them to have normal levels they should still be allowed to compete. It’s not like the therapy is giving them an advantage over their competition. Therapy is allowing them to have all the same tools as their competition.

**Times Roman** · 05-03-2013, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Wow. Did not know that. Interesting! I bet they push the edge of the envelope!

imho, if you allow TRT, then everyone will go on and push the envelope. Then you can let levels fall abit before your testing and you are G2G

Originally Posted by tigerspawn

That makes sense but doesn’t seem fair. If someone has naturally low levels and TRT helps them to have normal levels they should still be allowed to compete. It’s not like the therapy is giving them an advantage over their competition. Therapy is allowing them to have all the same tools as their competition.

no one said it had to be fair, just a level playing field. Is it really fair, that someone receives a genetic/hormonal gift, and can run faster than hell, yet no matter how much I train, I can never even get close to a Michael Vick in the 440? And besides, what is "fair" mean exactly?? Is it really fair that a transgendered individual can compete against women in the 440, and whip all their asses? Is it really fair that a post op tranny can get in the ring and kick the shit out of other women? Where do we draw the line?

if you have genetic/hormonal shortcomings, then either play the cards you were dealt in the "natty arena", or go elsewhere and compete where you don't have to be natty.

Hormonal augmentation is a slippery slope. And regardless of what others say, those on TRT push the envelope and want an optimal, not normal T level. If you allow athletes to begin doing this, using team doctors, then it's a no brainer that they WILL get an optimal level, and during the offseason, even more.

I don't buy anyone telling me here that they are on TRT and want a "normal" T level for their age group. It's pointless, and defies what our goals are.

**frank13** · 05-03-2013, 08:40 PM

hell no

**OnTheSauce** · 05-03-2013, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by tigerspawn

I agree. Even if taking TRT raised their level a little above NL I would consider them natty.

I agree with this

**frank13** · 05-03-2013, 08:46 PM

if they were natty they wouldn't be on anything

**LGM** · 05-03-2013, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by frank13

if they were natty they wouldn't be on anything

Using this logic nobody is natty.

**Times Roman** · 05-03-2013, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by frank13

if they were natty they wouldn't be on anything

agree. It's a type of con.

It's like organic fruit/vegetables. Yeah, they aren't sprayed with some of the more moderate chems/fertilizer, but they still get sprayed with shit. the list of things they can be sprayed with is quite long.

**OnTheSauce** · 05-03-2013, 08:54 PM

Anyone on Creatine isn't natty then.

**frank13** · 05-03-2013, 09:02 PM

[QUOTE=patrick4588;6524559]Anyone on Creatine isn't natty then.[/QUO

i would say yea and your deff not natty if you put test in your body even if its trt

**tigerspawn** · 05-04-2013, 12:30 AM

Yeah you are right that if we allowed people with low levels to get Tx than people who didn’t have low levels would be maxing theirs out using TRT.

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I don't buy anyone telling me here that they are on TRT and want a "normal" T level for their age group.

Isnt normalizing the levels of test the original goal of TRT? I know that’s not why most individuals seek TRT. Most seek TRT in order to get legal AAS.

**OnTheSauce** · 05-04-2013, 05:51 AM

Most Everyone in sports are on trt anyway. Especially football. Fact of the matter, aas is banned. Trt is not.

**JimmySidewalk** · 05-04-2013, 09:41 AM

Its quite sensitive.
For example, if you are on TRT, you'll then that normal test level regardless of what your diet is, how much you rest, how much alcohol you drink and other factors which may influence the amount of test per day or week a normal body would produce.
Thus, the levels are those of a normal person, but you wont have fluctuations like a normal body would.
So where do we cross the line ?

**Times Roman** · 05-04-2013, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by patrick4588

Anyone on Creatine isn't natty then.

disagree.

when you eat red meat, you are also consuming creatine. Creatine is a food item that is consumed through the normal course of eating. Both creatine and eating are a normal thing/process.

with TRT, you are injecting (most commonly) a synthetic hormone into your body, neither the injection nor the synthetic is a natural process.

**OnTheSauce** · 05-04-2013, 06:27 PM

We wont see eye to eye on this. If his levels are within normal range and were never above normal range, I consider them natty. My opinion. Sports will always allow trt because otherwise athletes like ray Lewis could only play 6 seasons instead of 20. they all juice and the leagues don't care. But to appease the public they do the drug tests which u should pass unless your trainer is awful.