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Thread: Progesterone and joints - wild theories

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    Progesterone and joints - wild theories

    Those who know me a little by know have perhaps allready gleaned that I like to look into new ways of doing things, most often just on a theoretical level. This is one of my more eccentric ideas, and should by no means be taken as anything other than an attempt to learn. Do not go ahead with anything here unless you're the type to try rat poison with strychnine in it just because strychnine has theoretical performance enhancement actions one might enjoy before it kills you.

    Ok, this is a shot in the dark and very much outside the box. It's only for those not concerned about supressive effects on endogenous T also.
    (And who preferably have done a gyno operation also)
    Women could also contribute here, as their experience, (which may be the only thing to go on here)
    Perhaps could enlighten me as well.
    (When I say it's for those and those, that is still on a theoretical level)

    So, nandrolone which have progestin activity seem to heal joints better than many other AAS. Trenbolone however, is not famed to do so, and it also has progestin activity.

    I've been looking at the agent norgestrel, or levo-norgestrel (it's only the levo isomer that's bioactive)
    for use, especially for tissue repair in tendons.

    Levonorgestrel has the following relative binding affinities:
    (Relative to T at the AR, relative to E2 at the ER, and so on)
    58% AR (T would have 100)
    332% PR (progesterone have 100, etc)
    7,5% Glucocorticoid
    17% Mineralcorticoid
    (Unless it's got antagonist activity at the Mineralcorticoid receptor I'd think water retention might be a tiny issue here!)

    Ok, that's just one agent I looked at, other might be more suitable. But LNG (levonorgestrel) has a history of use in men combined with T as a contraceptive, though that doesn't really mean much more than it being very supressive) it's also easily available.

    But does progestins (or progesterone) do anything with tendons?
    Yes they do according to research and feedback from women.
    But what do they do?
    They seem to be able to both cause and alleviate joint pain.
    They cause pain by acting on the collagen in joints, making the joints more flexible, or loose would be a better term, thus causing hyper mobility. This only seems to happen when there's a lack of estrogen though.
    Joint pain can also be alleviated by progesterone, some women actually using progesterone cream on their joints. (Although this only makes sense with tendons near the surface of the skin, like in the shoulder)

    Now, there are countless other things to look at than progesterone and progestins.
    However, I'd want to investigate if they can in fact be used for this, (or any other performance enhancing purpose) in both men and women.

    So, anyone got any thoughts on this besides its crazy?

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    It would be really interesting to have a "progesterone in males" thread. Not enough scientific literature is available on the topic, and I'd love to read the individual experiences from members here.

    It's not "crazy". Binding affinity only tells part of the story. You need to take actual potency in account. For what we know, 19-nors might act as mixed antagonist/agonist (think of clomid).

    The day other, I was reading about trestolone having 2.38 times the potency of progesterone while displaying higher binding affinity. That makes it a full agonist. About trenbolone , little is know of potency but affinity is still higher than prog. Nandrolone , interestingly, has only 22% of the binding affinity of progesterone, now I don't know about his potency, but there is lot of research available around, and I still have to read it up.

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    Nandrolone has no more healing abilities than other steroids , the effect of nandrolone in joints is of a potent antiflamatory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BB View Post
    Nandrolone has no more healing abilities than other steroids, the effect of nandrolone in joints is of a potent antiflamatory.
    Maybe. It's famed to help joints, and there's been a lot of strange info going around about other AAS, remember a time when people would say T would depress collagen synthesis.
    Personally I think all AAS heal tendons, and all AAS seems to increase collagen synthesis.
    Also had some personal experience with nandrolone fixing joint issues,
    but ofcourse it could just have been a pain relieving action which lasted long enough for the joint to heal, so that when I stopped it the pain was gone.

    Even so, the role of E and Progesterone on joint healing isn't much known.

    But about trenbolone and nandrolone being partial agonist or antagonists at the progesterone receptor, well, at the very least their not antagonists I think.
    I base this on the fact that they're very supressive, and this is believed to be caused by progestin activity.

    But, one could for simplicity say all AAS heal tendons, as they increase collagen production and it seems likely they should be anabolic in both muscles and ligaments, ligaments being less stimulated due to no direct blood supply.

    But what progesterone or progestins does to joints would be intresting to know.
    And then in a realistic setting, with enough T and some E present as well.

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    @Bizzaro;
    While I don't think any of the AAS with binding to the PR are antagonist,
    they could ofcourse have different actions than progesterone.
    Your clomid/nolva comparison isn't possible to rule out.
    But they do seem like agonists at the HPTA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocToxin8 View Post
    Maybe. It's famed to help joints, and there's been a lot of strange info going around about other AAS, remember a time when people would say T would depress collagen synthesis.
    Personally I think all AAS heal tendons, and all AAS seems to increase collagen synthesis.
    Also had some personal experience with nandrolone fixing joint issues,
    but ofcourse it could just have been a pain relieving action which lasted long enough for the joint to heal, so that when I stopped it the pain was gone.

    Even so, the role of E and Progesterone on joint healing isn't much known.

    But about trenbolone and nandrolone being partial agonist or antagonists at the progesterone receptor, well, at the very least their not antagonists I think.
    I base this on the fact that they're very supressive, and this is believed to be caused by progestin activity.

    But, one could for simplicity say all AAS heal tendons, as they increase collagen production and it seems likely they should be anabolic in both muscles and ligaments, ligaments being less stimulated due to no direct blood supply.

    But what progesterone or progestins does to joints would be intresting to know.
    And then in a realistic setting, with enough T and some E present as well.
    Now you are talking about tendons?! Joints and tendons are different things.

    But the answer is simple, it does nothing to joints and tendons, except the anti-inflammatory effect that progesterone also has.

    Joints and tendons in women are the same, plenty of information about progesterone in women.
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    Hehe, glad you're keeping the lingo correct.

    I thought tendons would be natural to include when talking about joints though.
    Or wouldn't you say tendonitis is a joint problem?
    (I'm actually asking, I'm not an expert on joints)

    Still, you're stating that progesterone has an anti inflammatory effects on something in the joints, and that's it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocToxin8 View Post
    Hehe, glad you're keeping the lingo correct.

    I thought tendons would be natural to include when talking about joints though.
    Or wouldn't you say tendonitis is a joint problem?
    (I'm actually asking, I'm not an expert on joints)

    Still, you're stating that progesterone has an anti inflammatory effects on something in the joints, and that's it?
    Not directly, it might be beneficial on joints due to body-wise anti inflammatory action of P4 (progesterone). This could be due to interaction with brain serotonin receptors and through modulation of pro-inflammatory cytokines.
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    Could anyone of you provide me with links to studies about its anti inflammatory action? (Preferably whole studies, but do you only have the abstracts I'll read them as well)

    (Yes I know how to do a search on pubmed, but you'd save me some time and I'd be grateful)

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