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Thread: Saturated Fat DOES NOT clog the arteries.

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    Saturated Fat DOES NOT clog the arteries.

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    Not directly pertinent to the link you posted, but somewhat related is something I'm skimming through now. It is Stan Efferding's Vertical Diet.
    It goes contrary to what to the guidelines are for the "standard healthy diet", but he is having some amazing results with both top tier strength athletes and everyday gym rats.
    Last edited by almostgone; 03-30-2018 at 05:48 AM. Reason: typo...
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    As always interesting and we are far from the whole truth on these matters.
    Yes inflammation is more and more being shown to be the cause for a host of illnesses, and steps to reduce inflammation helps in all manner of fields.

    Som examples;

    Carntine is anti inflammatory and has track record for helping diabetics with atherosclerosis
    -aspirin in low dose is both anti inflammatory and inhibitor of thrombosis, thus it actually helps acutely and long term.
    -high level of fast carbs does stress the system and we know elevated glucose can cause AGEs and contribute to inflammation.
    But excersize is a very important tool here.
    -taurine and milk thistle/silymarin; these (at least the latter) is touted as liver protectants, and they do that as well, but have you noticed they also influence cholesterol profile as well?
    And these are not the only Ones;
    I’ve long suspected that so called liver aids actually are much more important for reducing inflammation and hindering atherosclerosis than liver failure. BUT, it serves both; as helping the liver also dampens inflammatory response.

    LDL in itself shouldn’t be an issue, but oxidized LDL might be. Haven’t seen the latest on this, but suspect that might still be the case. That means inflammation and oxidation is involved in the process.

    As for optimal feed;
    Long time ago I hear this from a cell culture experiment;
    Cells had it best (in this setup)
    With 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 enegy from fat, protein, carbs. Or near that mark.
    My own view is that carb intake shouldn’t be higher than 40 max 50% of total energy.

    I also think there’s more than one type of saturated fat and that this issue is more complex than just saturated vs unsaturated.


    The only thing I found strange here is that with population studies there ShOULD be an inherent error, which didn’t seem to come up here;
    Namely; we’ve been telling people for a long time that saturated fat is bad.
    Thus, more health obsessed people stay away from saturated fat (in greater degree at least) than the more unhealthy population, and that in itself will skew results.

    If one who eats lots of red meat also smokes, drinks, train less, then that alone could explain why it seems that red meat causes him to be more unhealthy that if he was a chicken eating fitness God.
    Why this didn’t happen in this study I don’t know, but it has to do with participants chosen for the study.

    Anyways, interesting read and nice to hear what others think about it. Been some time since I researched this now.

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    https://www.sott.net/article/242516-...-heart-disease

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...t-blame-at-fat

    IMO just eat high quality foods. Grass fed filet mignon is the top quality of the top quality, can't get any better than that. Then fresh veggies, whole grain stuff, healthy oils, fish etc we were made for this kind of food.

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    I heard a doctor say one time that sugar and refined carbohydrates was more likely to cause a heart attack than fats

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    A former significant other was a Nurse Practitioner in a cardiology clinic. Her job for 20 years had been taking people's health history, then sticking a tiny line in their femoral artery, wending that line through their arteries until it reached the heart, then injecting dye that would show up on X-Rays. She said it was her observation, having tested literally thousands of people this way, was that nothing trumps genetics. She saw just as many young, lean, athletic, health nuts who had four or five occluded arteries as she did old, fat, diabetic, chain-smoking couch potatoes with all their arteries cleaner than a hound's tooth.

    When she told me that and I quit exercising, took up smoking, put a recliner with a cup holder in front of my big screen, and put on 60 pounds.

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    I've been seeing a lot death lately, and it seems fat people live to around mid seventies, average, and healthy people average mid eighties. But the fat people start having a hard time getting around starting in their mid sixties, so the healthy people tend to have a better life their last twenty years than out of shape people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarzan View Post
    I've been seeing a lot death lately, and it seems fat people live to around mid seventies, average, and healthy people average mid eighties. But the fat people start having a hard time getting around starting in their mid sixties, so the healthy people tend to have a better life their last twenty years than out of shape people.
    This is very true!
    Genetics might be more important or at least just as important as anything else, but life quality those last 20-25 years of your life is heavily influenced by what choices you’ve made.

    That’s what I tried to tell a former GF every time she was like:
    I wanna die young, don’t care if I smoke 20 a day or more.
    Yeah?! But chances are little it will kill you! And high it will fuxk your last 20 years! You’re gonna die badly and live badly.
    Didn’t work though. She didn’t get it.
    (And this wasn’t just about smoking, she had that answer for everything, and she wasn’t even 40 and allready had issues like headache more days than not, and so on)
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocToxin8 View Post
    This is very true!
    Genetics might be more important or at least just as important as anything else, but life quality those last 20-25 years of your life is heavily influenced by what choices you’ve made.

    That’s what I tried to tell a former GF every time she was like:
    I wanna die young, don’t care if I smoke 20 a day or more.
    Yeah?! But chances are little it will kill you! And high it will fuxk your last 20 years! You’re gonna die badly and live badly.
    Didn’t work though. She didn’t get it.
    (And this wasn’t just about smoking, she had that answer for everything, and she wasn’t even 40 and allready had issues like headache more days than not, and so on)
    Yep, I've heard some terrible stories of people that smoked dying a horrible death.

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    I feel genetics plays a tremendous role in many diseases. My mother had what is referred to as "brittle diabetes". She was an RN, extremely strict in following her diet and insulin protocol, but could never keep it in check. She was by no means overweight. After her final dialysis session I believe her weight was ~ 44 kilos. She lost a good bit of eyesight as well and was probably headed for cornea transplants and was scheduled for an insulin pump, but passed away before that could happen (this has been years ago).
    She constantly battled her glucose levels. I recall seeing her glucose in the 400s and also can recall finding her unconscious with a glucose levels too low to register. Finally it caught up with her and I found her dead on her bedroom floor one morning when I got off of work.
    Sometimes we are just genetically dealt a sh!t hand of cards to play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    I feel genetics plays a tremendous role in many diseases. My mother had what is referred to as "brittle diabetes". She was an RN, extremely strict in following her diet and insulin protocol, but could never keep it in check. She was by no means overweight. After her final dialysis session I believe her weight was ~ 44 kilos. She lost a good bit of eyesight as well and was probably headed for cornea transplants and was scheduled for an insulin pump, but passed away before that could happen (this has been years ago).
    She constantly battled her glucose levels. I recall seeing her glucose in the 400s and also can recall finding her unconscious with a glucose levels too low to register. Finally it caught up with her and I found her dead on her bedroom floor one morning when I got off of work.
    Sometimes we are just genetically dealt a sh!t hand of cards to play.
    Type 1 diabetes is a different beast comparing to type 2 insulin/resistant diabetes, totally different etiology with lifestyle choices having little to no impact at all.

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    I agree, and as I stated, I feel genetics play a huge role. A no point did I offer up a comparison between types 1 and type 2 diabetes out of the 6 types I know of?
    Diabetes is just plain nasty.
    Last edited by almostgone; 04-01-2018 at 03:10 AM.
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    MuscleSci, sorry if I got off on a side track and messed up your thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    I agree, and as I stated, I feel genetics play a huge role. A no point did I offer up a comparison between types 1 and type 2 diabetes out of the 6 types I know of?
    Diabetes is just plain nasty.
    Ofc I was just reinforcing your point.

    I'd also add that poorly manageable factors (for the individual) like environmental pollution do play a huge role in many of the so called modern diseases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    MuscleSci, sorry if I got off on a side track and messed up your thread.
    Didn’t side track it at all! I appreciate the comments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    Ofc I was just reinforcing your point.

    I'd also add that poorly manageable factors (for the individual) like environmental pollution do play a huge role in many of the so called modern diseases.
    I know,. Bizz. I went back and read my post and realized that I came across sounding like an a-hole, so that's why I went back and edited it.
    I agree environmental/pollution issues have a huge influence and can even be introduced through toxins in the food chain, etc.
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    "Coronary artery disease pathogenesis and treatment urgently requires a paradigm shift. Despite popular belief among doctors and the public, the conceptual model of dietary saturated fat clogging a pipe is just plain wrong."

    Thats^^^ the 1st paragraph, its cringeworthy to think its written by a doctor, or supposed to be a medical publication.

    Popular belief? Really? Or was it studied, analysed and proven by SCIENCE in dozens of medical studies and publications?... not very difficult for me post several... but hey, everyone is wrong. 99% cardiologists are wrong, every heart organization or foundation is wrong, scientists and heart studies are wrong, only Dr. Lard is correct! (yeah, the author is called Dr. Lard in the UK).

    Clogging a pipe? Does this sound like a doctor or cardiologist? Does he even know what are endothelial cells?

    The study he mentions [8], has been debunked and proven wrong by his peers (check here: https://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-matters...ol-and-statins).

    Of course a healthy lifestyle is good for you, that doesnt meen high cholesterol is good for you.
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    What do you guys think of low blood sugar? Every time I eat, mine drops, I've measured it as low as 42! I can control it by not eating refined carbs, but it sucks. I use to think I would not need to touch slin, but now I'm starting to think msybe it would help. My body produces too much, causing the low blood sugar, maybe if I took insulin , it would shut down my natural production? Or put me in a coma...

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarzan View Post
    What do you guys think of low blood sugar? Every time I eat, mine drops, I've measured it as low as 42! I can control it by not eating refined carbs, but it sucks. I use to think I would not need to touch slin, but now I'm starting to think msybe it would help. My body produces too much, causing the low blood sugar, maybe if I took insulin, it would shut down my natural production? Or put me in a coma...
    Sounds like reactive hypoglycemia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarzan View Post
    What do you guys think of low blood sugar? Every time I eat, mine drops, I've measured it as low as 42! I can control it by not eating refined carbs, but it sucks. I use to think I would not need to touch slin, but now I'm starting to think msybe it would help. My body produces too much, causing the low blood sugar, maybe if I took insulin, it would shut down my natural production? Or put me in a coma...
    Ussually its not the over production of insulin , but the adrenals that are not able to respond to the low blood sugar due to adrenal fatigue.

    Its great that you found it on your own, not everyone is actually willing to test blood sugar, you should definitely have it checked out by a doctor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    Sounds like reactive hypoglycemia.
    The best I can tell, it's reactive hypoglycemia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BB View Post
    Ussually its not the over production of insulin , but the adrenals that are not able to respond to the low blood sugar due to adrenal fatigue.

    Its great that you found it on your own, not everyone is actually willing to test blood sugar, you should definitely have it checked out by a doctor.
    Hmmmm, that's interesting. I definitely need to see a doc. If it is reactive hypoglycemia, I read there's nothing they can do for it. Have to control it with diet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BB View Post
    "Coronary artery disease pathogenesis and treatment urgently requires a paradigm shift. Despite popular belief among doctors and the public, the conceptual model of dietary saturated fat clogging a pipe is just plain wrong."

    Thats^^^ the 1st paragraph, its cringeworthy to think its written by a doctor, or supposed to be a medical publication.

    Popular belief? Really? Or was it studied, analysed and proven by SCIENCE in dozens of medical studies and publications?... not very difficult for me post several... but hey, everyone is wrong. 99% cardiologists are wrong, every heart organization or foundation is wrong, scientists and heart studies are wrong, only Dr. Lard is correct! (yeah, the author is called Dr. Lard in the UK).

    Clogging a pipe? Does this sound like a doctor or cardiologist? Does he even know what are endothelial cells?

    The study he mentions [8], has been debunked and proven wrong by his peers (check here: https://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-matters...ol-and-statins).

    Of course a healthy lifestyle is good for you, that doesnt meen high cholesterol is good for you.
    Completely overlooked this thanks for posting it. Sometimes you try and read so many research papers with seemingly infinite terminology and you miss things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarzan View Post
    What do you guys think of low blood sugar? Every time I eat, mine drops, I've measured it as low as 42! I can control it by not eating refined carbs, but it sucks. I use to think I would not need to touch slin, but now I'm starting to think msybe it would help. My body produces too much, causing the low blood sugar, maybe if I took insulin, it would shut down my natural production? Or put me in a coma...

    Any time that I run tren or happen to miss a meal while lifting heavy, mine dips down. Often down into the low 50s. Increased complex carbs and adding in a small meal or even a shake gets me through it. I can feel it coming on, so I keep an extra shake and 50g or so of plain shredded wheat in my lunchbox.
    Definitely would not introduce insulin into this situation.
    FWIW, I keep my glucometer in my lunchbox as well. I'm not diabetic, but when running GH, it usually elevates my glucose a tad so I monitor it.
    Last edited by almostgone; 04-01-2018 at 07:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    Any time that I run tren or happen to miss a meal while lifting heavy, mine dips down. Often down into the low 50s. Increased complex carbs and adding in a small meal or even a shake gets me through it. I can feel it coming on, so I keep an extra shake and 50g or so of plain shredded wheat in my lunchbox.
    Definitely would not introduce insulin into this situation.
    FWIW, I keep my glucometer in my lunchbox as well. I'm not diabetic, but when running GH, it usually elevates my glucose a tad so I monitor it.
    I experience minor irritability and shakiness on Tren while working out and fatigue also sets in faster, until I get some food down then I'm all charged up again, but never checked my glucose into that situation. It's like Tren eats away all the carbs for himself.
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    It doesn't seem to bother me as much on tren , i just started a tren cycle, so I'll pay attention to see. Probably because I eat better on tren. I know what y'all mean about getting hungry, but this is totally different. It usually happens after I eat. I get real dizzy, sweat a lot, weak, see flashing light and so on, it's terrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BB View Post
    "Coronary artery disease pathogenesis and treatment urgently requires a paradigm shift. Despite popular belief among doctors and the public, the conceptual model of dietary saturated fat clogging a pipe is just plain wrong."

    Thats^^^ the 1st paragraph, its cringeworthy to think its written by a doctor, or supposed to be a medical publication.

    Popular belief? Really? Or was it studied, analysed and proven by SCIENCE in dozens of medical studies and publications?... not very difficult for me post several... but hey, everyone is wrong. 99% cardiologists are wrong, every heart organization or foundation is wrong, scientists and heart studies are wrong, only Dr. Lard is correct! (yeah, the author is called Dr. Lard in the UK).

    Clogging a pipe? Does this sound like a doctor or cardiologist? Does he even know what are endothelial cells?

    The study he mentions [8], has been debunked and proven wrong by his peers (check here: https://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-matters...ol-and-statins).

    Of course a healthy lifestyle is good for you, that doesnt meen high cholesterol is good for you.
    My opinion is the complete opposite, we have know for at least 20 years that inflammation and not dietary or even high serum cholesterol is not the major driver of CVD. Higher serum cholesterol is a symptom not a cause. When cells are chronically inflamed they leak cholesterol from their membranes and other cell components. All you have to do is look at the data. Low fat diets have killed far more people than it’s saved. Of course genetic variability in a population is a key component to understand. So broad sweeping guidelines are really not the best way to go about public health Now a days. Especially with the advent of cheap, fast and accurate genetic testing.

    What’s cringed worthy is all the terrible studies in the past that linked or were biased towards low fat diets being healthier. I think there is some middle ground in the two opposing camps though. I do not think one can gorge on saturated fats all day and not have health problems. Just the same as one cannot keep eating processed sugar all day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    My opinion is the complete opposite, we have know for at least 20 years that inflammation and not dietary or even high serum cholesterol is not the major driver of CVD. Higher serum cholesterol is a symptom not a cause. When cells are chronically inflamed they leak cholesterol from their membranes and other cell components. All you have to do is look at the data. Low fat diets have killed far more people than it’s saved. Of course genetic variability in a population is a key component to understand. So broad sweeping guidelines are really not the best way to go about public health Now a days. Especially with the advent of cheap, fast and accurate genetic testing.

    What’s cringed worthy is all the terrible studies in the past that linked or were biased towards low fat diets being healthier. I think there is some middle ground in the two opposing camps though. I do not think one can gorge on saturated fats all day and not have health problems. Just the same as one cannot keep eating processed sugar all day.
    Would love to see the data showing low fat diets have killed ppl.

    Its your opinion, at the end of the day following heart.org (or any other countless heart organization) guidelines are your best bet into a healthy heart.

    To me it just sounds like another "science denial", like the vaccine efficacy lot. At least in this topic children dont die from lack of vaccination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BB View Post
    Would love to see the data showing low fat diets have killed ppl.

    Its your opinion, at the end of the day following heart.org (or any other countless heart organization) guidelines are your best bet into a healthy heart.

    To me it just sounds like another "science denial", like the vaccine efficacy lot. At least in this topic children dont die from lack of vaccination.
    Just read the countless studies that our there. Just don’t let conformation bias determine your view. Step outside the bubble and get unfomfortable. You might be surprised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    Just read the countless studies that our there. Just don’t let conformation bias determine your view. Step outside the bubble and get unfomfortable. You might be surprised.
    Countless studies have actually determined saturated fat intake to be important risk factor for coronary heart disease. The few studies that contradict this usually had monetary contribuitions from egg or dairy producers associations to authors.

    But it seems you think I'm in some kind of bubble, whatever that means, so I leave you to your own conclusions.

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    This argument made me think of my cousin vinny "how does the mud get into the tire" lol

    How does the fat get into the arteries?

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    It also made me think of a cool name I came up with for a band, Anal Leakage. The other members shot it down...

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    The next time I start a band, it'll be called Almost Persuaded

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    I'm a fucking idiot

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