The Passion of the Christ

[x_muscle]

im an Arab Christian.........i was amazed that i could understand 50% of what was said in Aramaic, since Arabic and Aramaic are sister languages. i dont think the story was fabricated since the methods of torturing was still used in the middle east to very recent time. its a very touching movie indeed.

[Tock]

1) it seems like you're just TRYING HARD TO BE DIFFERENT, tock.
2) When we talk about girls or whatever, you say how you're gay and you like men.
3) When any of us say Bush is good, you say Bush is bad.
4) When we say MilitiaMan is a freakin loser and needs to shut up, you say "don't be so mean to him, free speech, blah blah blah"
5) AND NOW, when we talk about the most wonderful glorious Jesus Himself... you say it's all a bunch of crap and in a way diss our beliefs.
6) Well I THINK YOU ARE A LOSER. YOU ARE A VERY SORRY GAY, LIBERAL, GOD-LESS MAN WITH NO MORAL, ETHICAL, OR RELIGIOUS CHARACTER.
7) I, as many others here at AR probably, would appreciate it if you didn't go out of your way to be so different
8) and spread your filth
9) around threads talking about how wonderful something is.

1) It ain't hard being different when you are different. Some people have a need to conform and imitate others, others just don't have the backbone necessary to stand up and be the person they really are. I am afflicted with neither disability, and don't give a rat's ass if the person I am disturbs or frightens you.
2) Well, the truth of the matter is that I am gay, and I do like men. I certainly don't bring this up every post or every thread that showcases heterosexual depravity and extramarital adventures, primarily because if I gave even a half-hearted effort at doing so I would be typing 24 hours a day. Ocassionally I'll make an offhand comment, sometimes a well-intentioned "tease" (as I did with OG a while ago), and while your "delicate sensibilities" may have been offended, you're just gonna have to get over it.
3) I only say bush is "Bad" because if I was to voice the full contempt for him and his administration I harbor, I would doubtless find myself cast headlong into a hurricane of invectives of such caustic nature as to corrode the insides of your computer monitors. Consider yourself lucky.
4) I challenge you to show me where I have ever said what you accuse me of saying. If you cannot, then I call you a dirty-dog teller of untruths, a two-faced rubber-nosed spreader of ill-will, and an over-controlling liar who gets pissed off every time someone smarter than you presents a more intelligent arguement or opinion.
Ya, meet my challenge, else bear the full scorn of my jaundiced eye . . .
5) If you check to see what I wrote, you will find that I offered my personal opinion. I did not criticize anyone else because of their beleifs. Now, if you wish, I will be happy to explain in greater detail the reasons why I came to my conclusion. We should probably do so in another thread, as this one began as an inquiry into who did and who didn't see a particular film, then degenerated into a personal attack upon my good character.
6) LOL . . . you're welcome to your opinion, but again, your opinion is based not on what you know, but only on what you think you know. You'd have a different perspective if you actually did know me, I'm sure. But, it makes no difference to me . . .
7) It seems to me that there are very few fellows on this AR board who feel threatened by me. You have the distinction of being the first to ever speak out against members being "different." Now, if I was obnoxious and spoke with a plurality of coarse four-letter words and besmirched personal reputations and accused them of doing things I have never done (as you are guilty of), then I would be inclined to agree with you, take my medicine, and go sit in some dark corner for a while. BUT since I am nothing more than an opinionated abuser of polysylabbic vocabulary who seeks to gratify his sexual urges with no less enthusiasm than what you yourself do, I think you are most likely afraid of (a) dissent (b) heretics (c) homosexuality, quite possibly because you subconsciously harbor a fair share of each in the dark recesses of your psyche.
Again, you'll just have to get over it.
8) Filth? What filth? JHC, you sound like the Nazi music critics after listening to 1938 Swing music . . . "Ya, eet is schweinfilthen!"
9) Again, you're gonna have to learn to deal with it, sweetcheeks. Neither this board nor this planet revolve around you and your fragile system of right and wrong. IF you cannot read what I post without trembling and shaking and having your blood pressure shoot up ten points, then just ignore my posts. Skip over them. Eschew each and every one.
We'll both be better off.

-Tock

[PTbyJason]

5) If you check to see what I wrote, you will find that I offered my personal opinion. I did not criticize anyone else because of their beleifs. Now, if you wish, I will be happy to explain in greater detail the reasons why I came to my conclusion. We should probably do so in another thread, as this one began as an inquiry into who did and who didn't see a particular film, then degenerated into a personal attack upon my good character.

I'll bite.

[Shortyrock13]

very graphic film.... I liked the way it was done though.

[Want2GetHuge]

spoon.. you lost me. Sanitized? Please explain.

[Want2GetHuge]

spoon.. you lost me. Sanitized? Please explain.

[RP7]

Tock well said, well written, mature follow-up to a nasty flams... my regards

[ItalianMuscle]

I seen it yesterday.. Great Movie very powerful film ! To see what God had to go threw was beyond torcher..

[Superhuman]

hey Tock, my bad man. I had a meeting with a good friend of mine yesterday about people that are different and how it is often times hard to deal with them. Jesus teaches us to love eachother and not to judge. It is wrong of me to judge you. This is something I have been working on for a while. When I see someone who is wierd or different, such as homosexuals or goth kids with all the dark makeup, I have great contempt for them. When I was a lot younger, I was teased for being skinny and not athletic, and people called me a fag. I was definately not gay, but I was different from everyone else. Now I play football and I'm working hard to be a bodybuilder and people think of me as the typical jock or whatever. Now I find myself acting just like the kids that used to tease me by teasing other kids. I hope I didn't deter you in anyway from Christianity because when Christians act like I did, they give the faith a bad name. Peace, bro.

[BajanBastard]

I lost my faith in god cuz my life long best friend and tralning partner died 8 months ago followed by my gran mother who rised me.......but watching the movie has started to bring me around..........yeah and tock i can feel why u r so "anti-god" cuz i'm sure you've heard the classic "your goin strait to hell boy!" but you really seem like a smart guy so just ask yourself "what if i'm wrong"

[Want2GetHuge]

Superhuman.. PROPS.. good man!

[Tock]

I hope I didn't deter you in anyway from Christianity because when Christians act like I did, they give the faith a bad name. Peace, bro.

Well, I long ago abandoned the notion that religion improved the human disposition. So, no, what you wrote did not make me think any less of Christianity, it merely confirmed what I've seen time and time again.
--Tock

[Tock]

but you really seem like a smart guy so just ask yourself "what if i'm wrong"

I think we covered this question a while ago. This "What if you're wrong?" business is merely the re-hashed "Pascal's Wager" that includes a thinly veiled threat of eternal darnation "Turn Or Burn" theology, which is actually religion based on Fear.
Anyway, do a Yahoo or Google search on "Pascal's Wager" and you'll see all the standard responses to this old and standard question. I typed it in once before, and I ain't gonna do it again.
--Tock

[Tock]

Superhuman.. PROPS.. good man!

What about me? I took all his abuse in the first place and restrained myself from issuing a blistering response. I think I deserve at least a lime lollypop as a reward for my virtues, if not for my good looks . . .
--Tock

[sepjuice]

And the first one to mistake 'agnostic' with 'atheist' gets b*tch slapped!

LMAO....

[RP7]

I think I deserve at least a lime lollypop as a reward for my virtues, if not for my good looks . . .
--Tock

One lollipop for you Tock.

And I think you're right... this isn't 1000 years ago... we need less religions built on fear and more on LOVE people.

[PTbyJason]

Well, I long ago abandoned the notion that religion improved the human disposition. So, no, what you wrote did not make me think any less of Christianity, it merely confirmed what I've seen time and time again.
--Tock

Tock, please don't use human imperfection as an excuse for your disbelief in God. He was man enough to step forward and admit that he made a mistake. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. The fact that he knows what things he has to improve on, and is man enough to admit that and say it is a struggle in his life, says a lot about who he is inside.

I still await your willingness, "to explain in greater detail the reasons why I came to my conclusion."

[Superhuman]

What about me? I took all his abuse in the first place and restrained myself from issuing a blistering response. I think I deserve at least a lime lollypop as a reward for my virtues, if not for my good looks . . .
--Tock

lmao

[Tock]

1) Tock, please don't use human imperfection as an excuse for your disbelief in God. He was man enough to step forward and admit that he made a mistake.
2) We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. The fact that he knows what things he has to improve on, and is man enough to admit that and say it is a struggle in his life, says a lot about who he is inside.

3) I still await your willingness, "to explain in greater detail the reasons why I came to my conclusion."

1) Human imperfection was enough to get me to closely examine the claims made by some christians who said they had made some progress along the road of "sanctification." Turns out lots of folks who claimed to have had "their lower natures" cleaned were actually comitting adultery, including some preachers I knew. Got me to wondering if there was anything to the "Sanctification by the Holy Spirit" thing, and it turns out, there ain't.
Other claims for other stuff didn't pan out, either. All that got me to thinking about a lot of things, and the more unanswered questions I had, the more questions would come to my mind. Turns out that taking the Bible as the literal Word of God, or fundamentalism, is a short road to nowhere (at least for a person who is prone to ask a lot of questions).
So, other people's behaviour got me to start asking questions, and it was the process of discovering what the Bible really is and what it says that persuaded me that it's no more than a myth.

2) Wrong. Since I am not a Christian, I am not a sinner. "Sin" is just a term invented along with Hell, Eternal ****ation, and all that other crap as a way to control ignorant people who don't know any better.
If you want to put your mind at the disposal of your church's theologians, that's your problem. Don't include me in your fantasy, though.

3) Sure, but we really should do it on another thread. This one was started on an entirely differnt topic than what's it's becoming . . .

--Tock

[MilitiaGuy]

im an Arab Christian.........i was amazed that i could understand 50% of what was said in Aramaic, since Arabic and Aramaic are sister languages. i dont think the story was fabricated since the methods of torturing was still used in the middle east to very recent time. its a very touching movie indeed.

those method are still used by the egyptian intelligence

[decadbal]

well since this thread has become a tock attack, i guess ill sorta spit my views of him as well, i agree that tock seems to be against everytihing that comes on the board, and is very different, i also respect the hell out of him for standing alone whether or not either side is wrong, it takes alot to stand by yourself and alot of ppl on this site jump the bandwagon and just attack ppl like hell, and he stands still, and on alot of things i dont agree, he always has great counter points.... some of the things he says i find offensive, as im sure he would to some of what i say, i think he along with anyone else who will stand for their views, and not back down bc of others or masses is invaluable part of the freedom we enjoy and this site...

[PTbyJason]

1) Human imperfection was enough to get me to closely examine the claims made by some christians who said they had made some progress along the road of "sanctification." Turns out lots of folks who claimed to have had "their lower natures" cleaned were actually comitting adultery, including some preachers I knew. Got me to wondering if there was anything to the "Sanctification by the Holy Spirit" thing, and it turns out, there ain't.
Other claims for other stuff didn't pan out, either. All that got me to thinking about a lot of things, and the more unanswered questions I had, the more questions would come to my mind. Turns out that taking the Bible as the literal Word of God, or fundamentalism, is a short road to nowhere (at least for a person who is prone to ask a lot of questions).
So, other people's behaviour got me to start asking questions, and it was the process of discovering what the Bible really is and what it says that persuaded me that it's no more than a myth.

2) Wrong. Since I am not a Christian, I am not a sinner. "Sin" is just a term invented along with Hell, Eternal ****ation, and all that other crap as a way to control ignorant people who don't know any better.
If you want to put your mind at the disposal of your church's theologians, that's your problem. Don't include me in your fantasy, though.

3) Sure, but we really should do it on another thread. This one was started on an entirely differnt topic than what's it's becoming . . .

--Tock

1 & 2) I still pray for you bro. It breaks my heart to see the anger within you. Something happened in your past, but I can't figure out what it is. Just because we don't believe the same thing as you, does not make us "ignorant". I have never called you ignorant, stupid, or any other name because you believe differently than I do. I don't tell you that you must "turn or burn" or anything else along those lines. I apologize for whoever pushed you away from the Almighty God, Tock. I truly am sorry. I don't put my mind at the "disposal of my church's theologians." All I did was offer an explanation based on my beliefs. I am a big boy and am able to research for myself and draw my own conclusions, and I do exactly that on a daily basis. I daily research new ideas and constantly challenge my faith and my religion. Not every now and then, but daily. I am not regurgitating (sp?) stuff told me. I do look to leadership within the church for answers, but I don't always agree with their interpretations. I take what is told to me, and analyze it to see if it truly lines up with what I think is right. You are a smart guy, and I love debating with you.....I just wish you knew God like I know Him.

3) Yeah, I know. That's why I posted earlier (post #43)

[Tock]

1 & 2)
1) I don't tell you that you must "turn or burn" or anything else along those lines.

2) I just wish you knew God like I know Him.

3) Yeah, I know. That's why I posted earlier (post #43)

1) Anytime anyone uses the line, "What if when you die, you're wrong?" or "We are all sinners in the eyes of God," they are implying that there is something wrong with skeptics like myself, and that if I don't change, then I'm going to Hell forever . . . and that's BS.

I don't mind saying that as I get older and more crotchety, I enjoy calling people on their madness. I was invited to a bible study one time (about 10 years ago) by some fellow who thought all it would take to convert me was a bible study. Well, they made the mistake of asking for my opinion on a few topics, and out of the abundant benevolences of my heart, I freely shared my views. After about 20 minutes, I had sufficiently offended at least half of the folks in the group and they went home. Ya, they just got up and went.
Needless to say, I didn't get a second invite. Some folks just can't take heresy . . . lol . . .

2) Well, you wouldn't wish that if you knew God the way I know it (I don't think God has either a schlong or tits).

3) Well, start up another thread, and I'll offer my opinion. I ain't gonna start it, because as soon as I do, someone is gonna jump on me for being an obnoxious atheist pushing my ideas off on innocent bystanders, or some such. For some reason, it's' ok for theists to do this, but not atheists.

So, you go first.

-Tock

[PTbyJason]

1) Anytime anyone uses the line, "What if when you die, you're wrong?" or "We are all sinners in the eyes of God," they are implying that there is something wrong with skeptics like myself, and that if I don't change, then I'm going to Hell forever . . . and that's BS.

I don't mind saying that as I get older and more crotchety, I enjoy calling people on their madness. I was invited to a bible study one time (about 10 years ago) by some fellow who thought all it would take to convert me was a bible study. Well, they made the mistake of asking for my opinion on a few topics, and out of the abundant benevolences of my heart, I freely shared my views. After about 20 minutes, I had sufficiently offended at least half of the folks in the group and they went home. Ya, they just got up and went.
Needless to say, I didn't get a second invite. Some folks just can't take heresy . . . lol . . .

2) Well, you wouldn't wish that if you knew God the way I know it (I don't think God has either a schlong or tits).

3) Well, start up another thread, and I'll offer my opinion. I ain't gonna start it, because as soon as I do, someone is gonna jump on me for being an obnoxious atheist pushing my ideas off on innocent bystanders, or some such. For some reason, it's' ok for theists to do this, but not atheists.

So, you go first.

-Tock

1) Flawed argument. "We are all sinners in the eyes of God" is not "Either you believe in my God and what I say or you are going to Hell". Related based on my beliefs....Absolutely. The same hard nosed approach argument that you are use to hearing.....Nope.

2) No assumptions please....you never asked, and obviously I wasn't talking about the physical.

3) Hmmm, ok let me see how I can start the thread. Be back in a few. And by the way, please quit generalizing.....many times I have asked you to start a thread stating your beliefs. Though I know you said, "someone".....it appears as though you are making a blanketed statement.

[bermich]

well since this thread has become a tock attack, i guess ill sorta spit my views of him as well, i agree that tock seems to be against everytihing that comes on the board, and is very different, i also respect the hell out of him for standing alone whether or not either side is wrong, it takes alot to stand by yourself and alot of ppl on this site jump the bandwagon and just attack ppl like hell, and he stands still, and on alot of things i dont agree, he always has great counter points.... some of the things he says i find offensive, as im sure he would to some of what i say, i think he along with anyone else who will stand for their views, and not back down bc of others or masses is invaluable part of the freedom we enjoy and this site...

I have to disagree when you say that he is alone and he is against everything on the board. You only see what you wanna see. You only see the times he goes against what you feel is right and overlook all the threads where he agrees with you cause it doesnt stand out in your mind.

I once made a post stating that Tock ALWAYS mentioned the point that he is gay. Well he made me realize I was wrong when I typed that. If you stand back and look at ALL the threads with sexual remarks towards women that we have all made, it would add up to a lot. Now everytime Tock makes a statement about his sexuality, it stands out among all his other threads cause it grabs our attention and makes us think that that is all he mentions. When in fact: he probably only mentions it 1 out of 20 times in all his posts. And the 1 out of 20 is probably cause it is the topic of the thread.

As far as all this religion bullshlt against homosexuality: That is such crap. You are all hyporcits for your beliefs. The bible is such a hyprocricy that it isnt even funny. God is against homosexuals yet all are created equal. Love all as if they are your equal yet homosexuals are not allowed into heaven.
You guys say something mean and fvcked up then come back in another post and apologyze and preach the word of god and you have been "SHOWN THE WAY" to take someone in and accept him for who he is.

You all can keep your religion and cling to it. You all can go to heaven and watch us go to hell. You all can preach your love while you say we are going to hell for disagreeing with your beliefs. Such a hypocricy and insecurity.

[PTbyJason]

As far as all this religion bullshlt against homosexuality: That is such crap. You are all hyporcits for your beliefs. The bible is such a hyprocricy that it isnt even funny. God is against homosexuals yet all are created equal. Love all as if they are your equal yet homosexuals are not allowed into heaven.
You guys say something mean and fvcked up then come back in another post and apologyze and preach the word of god and you have been "SHOWN THE WAY" to take someone in and accept him for who he is.

Just letting you know...the Bible is against the act of homosexuality, not against the person. There is a clear difference. I've been doing some research on this for about a week now, and I will try to share what I have learned. Obviously, I am no expert, but I am taking the time to learn about it. Also, just a note....I do have friends who are homosexual, but you will never find me preaching to them. I treat them just like anyone else, and I would gladly fight for them or by their side, if someone tried to give them a hard time. They are equals, and should be treated as such.

You will find some very common themes among the lives of homosexuals. You will find fathers who are non-existant, very overbearing, or very passive. Another thing that is found is a traumatic event, often sexual, that happened in the person's childhood. Now obviously, not all apply at once, but normally one of the above situations is in place. So why aren't all people without fathers homosexual? That's really unknown as of right now. I really think it depends on the child's personality initially, that causes them to respond a particular way. I think you will find a common link among different situations that are somewhat inborn, that cause a particular reaction later in life. However, I do feel that a child, no matter how they are born, that is brought up in a normal childhood with a good father figure and no sexually traumatizing event, will be a heterosexual. That's my personal belief and feel free to prove me wrong. As I stated before, I have just begun to research this topic. So do I feel that homosexuality is a choice? No, that's not necessarily what I was saying. What I am saying is that a particular upbringing has an effect on a child and homosexuality is a result of that.

It can be tied in to another topic (though obviously not the same) that a certain childhood can have an effect on a child being more violent to others. I don't think we are all born the same, and we will have a tendency to have a certain characteristic, but life events can cause different aspects of our personality and actions to be more prevalent.

[bermich]

Good post Jason. Very non combative and calm. Very non "attack my post, now I will attack yours" post.
My step brother is gay. We didnt realize until he was about 18. The ONLY child hood trama he had would be a divorce. Thats about it. Im sure he would say I was mean to him when we were growing up and I was the reason he is gay. All in all: The whole burning down that town where gays resided in the bible seems odd.
I actually like the ideals of the first bible where "AN EYE FOR AN EYE" Do onto others as others would do onto you" was preached.
I just cant accept someone attacking me and then me forgiving him without any sort of retribution.

You say homosexual acts vs homosexuals. What makes a homosexual a homosexual. Isnt it the act of homosexuality? How can you have one without the other. So in essance, it seems as a way to get around the fact that homosexuality is not accepted.

Im tired. I dont wanna argue. I just wish religion was straight forward without saying yes on one thing then saying no on the same thing later just switching words around.

Im glad you all have something to believe in and something to drive you forward through your life with a smile. Just dont look down on others for not following your beliefs (going to hell)

[Big Rush]

Wow, my thread turned into a massive religious debate...lol...

[roccoswello]

The bible making you feel better is like 1T juice making you bigger. If you tell yourself its real, then it is...

Some people need to believe in something and just could not accept the fact that the bible is mostly twisted, warped, and skewed views of what really happened back in the day....

[PTbyJason]

Good post Jason. Very non combative and calm. Very non "attack my post, now I will attack yours" post.
My step brother is gay. We didnt realize until he was about 18. The ONLY child hood trama he had would be a divorce. Thats about it. Im sure he would say I was mean to him when we were growing up and I was the reason he is gay. All in all: The whole burning down that town where gays resided in the bible seems odd.
I actually like the ideals of the first bible where "AN EYE FOR AN EYE" Do onto others as others would do onto you" was preached.
I just cant accept someone attacking me and then me forgiving him without any sort of retribution.

You say homosexual acts vs homosexuals. What makes a homosexual a homosexual. Isnt it the act of homosexuality? How can you have one without the other. So in essance, it seems as a way to get around the fact that homosexuality is not accepted.

Im tired. I dont wanna argue. I just wish religion was straight forward without saying yes on one thing then saying no on the same thing later just switching words around.

Im glad you all have something to believe in and something to drive you forward through your life with a smile. Just dont look down on others for not following your beliefs (going to hell)

I'm not into arguing tonight either. I am ready to go home, so I will make this brief and head out. I just wanted to clarify some things so you understand it is more straightforward than you realize.

So in relation to your stepbrother, he basically grew up without a father figure? From the research I have done so far, children crave a father figure (we find research backing that up all the way to who was that psychologist that discussed the various stages of growing up and the needs of the child?) as they progress through childhood. I also have a very good friend who grew up without a father around, and he is homosexual (at 20 years old he came out). Researchers conclude that they still crave a father figure and therefore look to other males to satisfy that need. Let's face it, no one wants to be homosexual. Who would want to be treated badly and discrimated against for who they are. But certain situations can cause certain reactions. Look at females who are raped....they are affected for the rest of their life. Some get help, and do improve, but it still haunts them to a certain extent and causes them to react to other males in a particular way.

And I see your argument about all homosexuals in a town were destroyed...it wasn't necessarily just because it was homosexuals, it was because it was a place full of sinful acts. (Again, the following analogy is a major exaggeration and the two are not similar, but it is to prove a point) Say a child is tortured as they are growing up and as they develop they are very violent (not an uncommon thing). So this person is the extreme and becomes a serial killer. This person is not the problem, it is his actions that are the problem. They are related. Now say this person undergoes a change and gets therapy for dealing with his past. Over time he lets go of his past and slowly begins to change into a "normal" person. He is not always a murderer, but what he was doing was a horrible thing. So in a way, he was a horrible person for committing murder, but through help he was able to get away from that and was able to function "normally" again. AGAIN, this was just an ANALOGY to explain a point.

Me personally.....everytime I find "contradictions" in the Bible I have to stop right there. If I can't find an explanation for it, why bother following a hypocritic Bible. There are many things that you will not understand, and many things that I am still understanding. In fact you will even find in the Bible, and I can't even tell you the verse, but I'm sure I can find it.....that you will not understand everything in the Bible until God allows you to understand. Things are revealed and the Holy Spirit is here to help us understand the teachings of the Word of God. I find that more and more true everyday. It's amazing how you can read things over and over again, and then you ask God to explain it to you. Suddenly a thought is in your head that gives an explanation of what the verse is talking about. Blows my mind everytime. Happened with a parable I read just a few weeks ago. I had another verse suddenly come to my mind that was able to perfectly explain the parables meaning.

I never look down on anyone because their beliefs are different from mine. Who am I to judge? I respect anyone that is able to form their own opinions about their beliefs. I encourage each person to constantly challenge their beliefs in order to ensure that they are confident in their beliefs, and I do the same with mine.....otherwise I would be a hypocrit.

[PTbyJason]

Wow, my thread turned into a massive religious debate...lol...

With the guys on this board.....it's bound to happen. I started another thread earlier...hopefully we can migrate over there.

[PTbyJason]

With the guys on this board.....it's bound to happen. I started another thread earlier...hopefully we can migrate over there.

Link: http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=93720

[Tock]

Wow, my thread turned into a massive religious debate...lol...

That's ok . . . next time we'll try to make it a dispute over pre-cambrian geology . . .
--Tock

[Tock]

1) Flawed argument. "We are all sinners in the eyes of God" is not "Either you believe in my God and what I say or you are going to Hell". Related based on my beliefs....Absolutely. The same hard nosed approach argument that you are use to hearing.....Nope.

2) Hmmm, ok let me see how I can start the thread. Be back in a few.

1) I beg to differ. Anytime someone says, "We are all sinners," what that means is "anyone who hasn't taken the Bible's prescribed treatment for sin is gonna roast in Hellfires forever." It's implied in the message. You may not have noticed it, but it's in there.

2) I wish you 'godspeed,' mon petite . . . besides, I think someone wants their thread back . . .

-Tock

[Tock]

I'm not into arguing tonight either. I am ready to go home, so I will make this brief and head out. I just wanted to clarify some things so you understand it is more straightforward than you realize.

So in relation to your stepbrother, he basically grew up without a father figure?
1) From the research I have done so far, children crave a father figure (we find research backing that up all the way to who was that psychologist that discussed the various stages of growing up and the needs of the child?) as they progress through childhood. I also have a very good friend who grew up without a father around, and he is homosexual (at 20 years old he came out).

2) Researchers conclude that they still crave a father figure and therefore look to other males to satisfy that need.

3) Let's face it, no one wants to be homosexual.

Who would want to be treated badly and discrimated against for who they are. But certain situations can cause certain reactions. Look at females who are raped....they are affected for the rest of their life. Some get help, and do improve, but it still haunts them to a certain extent

4) and causes them to react to other males in a particular way.

5) And I see your argument about all homosexuals in a town were destroyed...it wasn't necessarily just because it was homosexuals, it was because it was a place full of sinful acts.

(Again, the following analogy is a major exaggeration and the two are not similar, but it is to prove a point) Say a child is tortured as they are growing up and as they develop they are very violent (not an uncommon thing). So this person is the extreme and becomes a serial killer. This person is not the problem, it is his actions that are the problem. They are related. Now say this person undergoes a change and gets therapy for dealing with his past. Over time he lets go of his past and slowly begins to change into a "normal" person. He is not always a murderer, but what he was doing was a horrible thing. So in a way, he was a horrible person for committing murder, but through help he was able to get away from that and was able to function "normally" again. AGAIN, this was just an ANALOGY to explain a point.

Me personally.....everytime I find "contradictions" in the Bible I have to stop right there. If I can't find an explanation for it, why bother following a hypocritic Bible.

6) There are many things that you will not understand, and many things that I am still understanding. In fact you will even find in the Bible, and I can't even tell you the verse, but I'm sure I can find it.....that you will not understand everything in the Bible until God allows you to understand. Things are revealed and the Holy Spirit is here to help us understand the teachings of the Word of God. I find that more and more true everyday. It's amazing how you can read things over and over again, and then you ask God to explain it to you. Suddenly a thought is in your head that gives an explanation of what the verse is talking about. Blows my mind everytime. Happened with a parable I read just a few weeks ago. I had another verse suddenly come to my mind that was able to perfectly explain the parables meaning.

I never look down on anyone because their beliefs are different from mine. Who am I to judge? I respect anyone that is able to form their own opinions about their beliefs. I encourage each person to constantly challenge their beliefs in order to ensure that they are confident in their beliefs, and I do the same with mine.....otherwise I would be a hypocrit.

1) and 2) Who are these mysterious "researchers?" Please don't tell me 'Tim LaHaye' or some other fool from that dung-den Focus On The Family . . .
The major problem with fundamentalists doing science of any sort, and in particular psychology, is that they are obliged to make their findings conform to Bible ideology. What they discover, therefore, can never contradict the Bible, especially if they want to keep their jobs.

3) It ain't so bad once ya get used to it and have a support system in place, and get over the god-religion-bullshhhit.

4) not so much in "a particular way," but in a lot of different ways, few of them good.

5) Sodom? That's another piece of fiction . . .

6) If you are confused about something in the Bible, and you wish to find an explanation that will fit along with your other religious ideas, ya, sooner or later you'll think up something that seems about right.
Lots of people have, over the years, put together some pretty wild systems of belief . . . made sense to them, like that David-whats-his-name from Waco who had his own polygamy thing going on; and that Jim Jones guy from Guinea who killed about a thousand people with poison Kool-aid, and then Mormons, and 7th Day Adventists who can explain perfectly well why those who don't keep the correct sabbath are gonna burn in Hellfire, and so on and so on and so on.
What you're doing is what all these other religous folks have been doing for years -- being inventive and creative with the Bible. I welcome you to continue doing so, but you may as well know from the get-go that you'll be about as "right" as anyone else with their thousands of views of every doctrine has ever been.


But let me tell you something about your beginning few paragraphs, the part about gays lacking father figures and all that . . .

It's a bunch of Bull Crap.

It's as stereotypical a statement as saying that black people have a craving for watermelon. And just as accurate.

Look, I have 2 older sisters and 2 younger brothers, and they had the same parents that I did, went through the same hassles with them, and I am the only one who came out gay. Why? Who knows?

Back in the olden days (the 1970's) popular thought was that it was because of a dominant mother and a weak father. As that notion was based in nothing more than folklore, it fell to subsequent research, which arrived at the conclusion that no one really knows why some people are gay and why some are not.

Fundamentalists had a little cottage industry publishing warmed-over nonsense about gays. David A. Noebel authored "The Homosexual Revolution," a perfectly libelous volume (1984) where he pretty much attributes gay people with 'pederasts' and the KGB and the immanent collapse of the US. Tim LaHaye, billed as "One of America's Leading Family Educators," authored "The Unhappy Gays" (1978) and re-hashed it in "What everyone should know about Homosexuality" (1981). LaHaye seems to think that all it takes to become gay is (1) a predisposition and (2) someone to model gay behaviour, and says "smothering mothers" and "dominating mothers" are primary to developing a gay predisposition . . .
It's just all too bizarre . . . none of his opinions would stand up to the scientific research that's been done since 1978, but his opinions would blend pretty well with the urban myths of the 70's and the anti-gay homophobia rampant in fundamentalist circles.

Yes, lots of gays and lesbians come from families where there were absent father figures and dominant mothers, but that's probably because there are so many lousy fathers who spend more time chasing extra tail and neglecting their family responsibilities, so that the mother has no choice but to step in and assume responsiblilty for being both the mother AND the father. Last I heard, something like 77% of all black families were headed by a woman. The father was off doing whatever, the woman had taken up the slack for breadwinning. But has the incidence of homosexuality gone up in the black community along with the rise of dominant women and absent fathers?
I sure haven't seen it.
Tim LaHaye is so full of BS his eyes are f'ing brown.

Anyway, do everyone a favor and spare yourself the embarrassment of passing off ancient fundamentalist mythology as truth by citing current findings from researchers in sexual orientation. That "domininat mother/absent father" bs isn't anything more than stereotypical crap.

Ugh (other grunts deleted).

--Tock

[PTbyJason]

1) I beg to differ. Anytime someone says, "We are all sinners," what that means is "anyone who hasn't taken the Bible's prescribed treatment for sin is gonna roast in Hellfires forever." It's implied in the message. You may not have noticed it, but it's in there.

2) I wish you 'godspeed,' mon petite . . . besides, I think someone wants their thread back . . .

-Tock

It's a difference of opinion. I'll leave it at that.

[PTbyJason]

1) and 2) Who are these mysterious "researchers?" Please don't tell me 'Tim LaHaye' or some other fool from that dung-den Focus On The Family . . .
The major problem with fundamentalists doing science of any sort, and in particular psychology, is that they are obliged to make their findings conform to Bible ideology. What they discover, therefore, can never contradict the Bible, especially if they want to keep their jobs.

3) It ain't so bad once ya get used to it and have a support system in place, and get over the god-religion-bullshhhit.

4) not so much in "a particular way," but in a lot of different ways, few of them good.

5) Sodom? That's another piece of fiction . . .

6) If you are confused about something in the Bible, and you wish to find an explanation that will fit along with your other religious ideas, ya, sooner or later you'll think up something that seems about right.
Lots of people have, over the years, put together some pretty wild systems of belief . . . made sense to them, like that David-whats-his-name from Waco who had his own polygamy thing going on; and that Jim Jones guy from Guinea who killed about a thousand people with poison Kool-aid, and then Mormons, and 7th Day Adventists who can explain perfectly well why those who don't keep the correct sabbath are gonna burn in Hellfire, and so on and so on and so on.
What you're doing is what all these other religous folks have been doing for years -- being inventive and creative with the Bible. I welcome you to continue doing so, but you may as well know from the get-go that you'll be about as "right" as anyone else with their thousands of views of every doctrine has ever been.


But let me tell you something about your beginning few paragraphs, the part about gays lacking father figures and all that . . .

It's a bunch of Bull Crap.

It's as stereotypical a statement as saying that black people have a craving for watermelon. And just as accurate.

Look, I have 2 older sisters and 2 younger brothers, and they had the same parents that I did, went through the same hassles with them, and I am the only one who came out gay. Why? Who knows?

Back in the olden days (the 1970's) popular thought was that it was because of a dominant mother and a weak father. As that notion was based in nothing more than folklore, it fell to subsequent research, which arrived at the conclusion that no one really knows why some people are gay and why some are not.

Fundamentalists had a little cottage industry publishing warmed-over nonsense about gays. David A. Noebel authored "The Homosexual Revolution," a perfectly libelous volume (1984) where he pretty much attributes gay people with 'pederasts' and the KGB and the immanent collapse of the US. Tim LaHaye, billed as "One of America's Leading Family Educators," authored "The Unhappy Gays" (1978) and re-hashed it in "What everyone should know about Homosexuality" (1981). LaHaye seems to think that all it takes to become gay is (1) a predisposition and (2) someone to model gay behaviour, and says "smothering mothers" and "dominating mothers" are primary to developing a gay predisposition . . .
It's just all too bizarre . . . none of his opinions would stand up to the scientific research that's been done since 1978, but his opinions would blend pretty well with the urban myths of the 70's and the anti-gay homophobia rampant in fundamentalist circles.

Yes, lots of gays and lesbians come from families where there were absent father figures and dominant mothers, but that's probably because there are so many lousy fathers who spend more time chasing extra tail and neglecting their family responsibilities, so that the mother has no choice but to step in and assume responsiblilty for being both the mother AND the father. Last I heard, something like 77% of all black families were headed by a woman. The father was off doing whatever, the woman had taken up the slack for breadwinning. But has the incidence of homosexuality gone up in the black community along with the rise of dominant women and absent fathers?
I sure haven't seen it.
Tim LaHaye is so full of BS his eyes are f'ing brown.

Anyway, do everyone a favor and spare yourself the embarrassment of passing off ancient fundamentalist mythology as truth by citing current findings from researchers in sexual orientation. That "domininat mother/absent father" bs isn't anything more than stereotypical crap.

Ugh (other grunts deleted).

--Tock

1 & 2) Researchers are psychologists that do behavioural research. I don't know who Tim LaHaye is. I'll be fair and even present the other side for you though. The other side of the argument is that homosexuals are born a certain way. Which would imply that the brain functions differently in some way, therefore it is inborn and there is no control. However, we do know from scientific research that developmental patterns change brain function. The only possible way to know one way or another is to check the brain activity patterns of multiple newborns and check on their development over time. Without that research, I think it would be hard to say without a doubt who is right and who is wrong.

5) You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine

6) Considering you have no idea what I was making reference to, that's a pretty big assumption that I was just trying to make it fit. You are entitled to your opinion. If it had been me, and I wanted to understand the other side of the argument, I would have asked for an example. But you have simply closed the door on ever understanding. I never think anyone ever knows everything. I believe we all have the ability to understand and learn more. When we close that door, with the belief that we have it all figured out, we are only harming ourselves.


In regards to everything else. First off, Tock, you know I have nothing against you and you know none of this was a personal flame against you. If you took it that way, I do apologize, but it was never my intention. I was simply giving an explanation.

I don't want to break everything down point by point on your paragraphs. I've already discussed that is unknown why some siblings are homosexual and others are not. I do wonder if there are a higher percentage of homosexuals today then there were, say 70 years ago. With the divorce rate at 50% today, that would be a good study to see. And it might help us draw some conclusions. You mentioned the black population having a high percentage of families without fathers. But I have to ask if certain races have higher percentage of homosexuals or violence. There can be more than one type of reaction to family situations. So I do wonder if certain races tend to react particular ways to particular situations. Another argument is that once someone is homosexual, they are always homosexual. The book I am reading right now, is written by some people who work for Love in Action. I think everyone who has ever worked there, has been homosexual, or had homosexual tendencies or past experiences.

When I saw you sign on last night, I had to leave the office. I just knew you were going to try to tear my argument to pieces. lol I stated in my first post about homosexuality, that I know very little about it. I simply presented a side of the discussion. I don't have it all figured out, and will never claim that I do. None of this was ever a personal attack on you, and I hope you understand that. I have never attacked you, called you a name, or anything else in the past. I just wanted to have both sides presented, and everyone can make their own conclusion. It's simply a discussion.

[Tock]

Allright . . . let's just start over.
I guess I wasn't in the best of moods last night, and one thing followed a bit of gob that stuck in my craw, and it went down hill from there . . .
Shake hands and make up, and let's have at it again, eh? I'll try not to be so irritable this time . . .
--Tock

[PTbyJason]

Allright . . . let's just start over.
I guess I wasn't in the best of moods last night, and one thing followed a bit of gob that stuck in my craw, and it went down hill from there . . .
Shake hands and make up, and let's have at it again, eh? I'll try not to be so irritable this time . . .
--Tock

No hard feelings bro. Consider it forgotten. I never really took it personal, I just wanted to make sure that you didn't take what I said personally.

[Carlos_E]

I do wonder if there are a higher percentage of homosexuals today then there were, say 70 years ago.

I doubt it. The numbers are probably the same. It may seem higher now because people are more willing to come out. 70 years ago it wasn't as safe for people to do so. (Lose your job & family being physically assaulted and such.)