am i missing anything here?

**Caged in RAGE** · 03-18-2002, 06:57 PM

i just started my first 9-week injectable cycle of Deca ./Primo./Testestrone enanthate (very small doeses for 5 weeks)/+ Dbol . tablets, and what i've learnt is that Nolvadex can only be effective during a cycle to reduce gyno. and bloating, and the difference between it and Clomid is that Clomid is not as powerful as Nolvadex is in blocking the estrogen receptors, but is very effective if taken after a cycle to restore testesrone levels back to normal (which will also lead to maintaining the gained muscle mass from a cycle for a longer time). HCG as also been recommended to be taken during a cycle for the same reason of raising testestrone.

i've came to a conclusion that i wish is right: because im going through a cycle that is schedualed in a piramidic form (increasing doses and the beginning of the cycle then decreasing at the end), would it be a good idea to take HCG in the middle of the cycle (where doese are high) for only one week (one injection) while taking Nolvadex throughout the cycle in 50mg daily doses, then to go for a 2-week Clomid therapy after the cycle. I would've stuck to Clomid instead of Nolvadex during the cycle BUT i read that the both if combined and escpecially if HCG is taken right after clomid;"Athletes who have already increased their endogenous test-osterone level by taking Clomid and intend subsequently to take HCG could experience considerable water retention and distinct feminization symptoms (gynecomastia , tendency toward fat de-posits on the hips). This is due to the fact that high testosterone leads to a high conversion rate to estrogens"-Anabolic Review.com-, so as long as Clomid wont be as effective as Nolvadex in blocking the estrogen receptors during the cycle and Nolvadex doesn't play any role in increasing testestrone levels, and as long as i'll be going for an HCG injection during the cycle (to not totally ignore lowered testestrone), its better to use Nolvadex and save Clomid for the post-cycle therapy.

I haven't gone for neither Clomid nor Nolvadex yet because of a feeling that tells me i don't know enough about whats best for me yet and also for the new idea of adding some testesrone enan. to my cycle. that makes me a bit more confused!

thats as far as my knowledge about anti-estrogens can go, what do you guys think ? am i right about all this or am i missing anything??

**Dr.Evil** · 03-19-2002, 01:00 PM

you have a good basic understanding of it, but while hcg should be used during a cycle like you said, it doesn't in any way help restore natural test levels. it just helps you produce more semen and sperm. the effect of this is normallized testical size. if your cycle is shorter than 12 weeks, i don't think you'll need it.

save your money and get arimidex instead of nolvadex and take clomid post cycle like you planned.

**Billy Boy** · 03-19-2002, 01:38 PM

I agree with Dr Evil here good advice

**Caged in RAGE** · 03-19-2002, 07:56 PM

Thanks Dr. Evil and Billy boy for the advice....

i forgot to mention having a slight case of gyno that started when i was 15 though (the itchy feeling of nipples and growth of tissue underneath them).....

just incase i can't get arimidex , should i take Nolva. during the cycle since i'm already prone to gyno or keep it in hand just incase i have the itchy feeling again ?? and if i get arimidex: should i take it and STILL keep Nolvadex just incase?

**RON** · 03-19-2002, 08:25 PM

I take nolva at 30mg ed full cycle. Im kinda prone to gyno too. 20 would probably do though. Especially if you running small doses.

**thecoachman** · 03-19-2002, 09:25 PM

If prone take nolva all the way thru.
If not prone, take at first sign of gyno.

HCG is for LONG cycles of nat. Test reducing cycles. Like the Evil one says..

do you really want to pyramid your cycle?
I heard that you don't need to and that it's not a great idea to?

That's just what I read......

**Dr.Evil** · 03-20-2002, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Caged in RAGE
Thanks Dr. Evil and Billy boy for the advice....

i forgot to mention having a slight case of gyno that started when i was 15 though (the itchy feeling of nipples and growth of tissue underneath them).....

just incase i can't get arimidex, should i take Nolva. during the cycle since i'm already prone to gyno or keep it in hand just incase i have the itchy feeling again ?? and if i get arimidex: should i take it and STILL keep Nolvadex just incase?

if you have arimidex you won't need nolva. start it when you get that itchy feeling again

**Caged in RAGE** · 03-20-2002, 08:28 PM

Thanks again for the advices guys.......i just tried to get arimidex from the biggest pharmacy in town but the guy never heard of it! so i guess i'll just stick to 10mg Nolva. eod just incase (being prone to gyno).....better safe than sorry as long as taking it like that wont harm..it would at least prevent water retention.