PROOF that NON-Aromatizing steroids DON'T...

[PumpinIron]

[ginkobulloba]

Is this that Ross idiot I've heard so much about?

[Nikolaus777]

yep, its got to be him

[PumpinIron]

I have had remarkable success without test in my cycles, so long as the proper compounds at the proper dosages for the proper durations were used.

Test is great for mass, and those not ultimately concerned with side-effects.

We all have different goals.

[Nikolaus777]

if you look at his posts, they are all about VAR
and thats what MO Ross was all about, cause that was the only thing he ever did
And remember he is a scientist and a genius and all that sh*t
But I kinda liked the guy, he was funny

[WildCh1ld]

This has to be Ross...........

but I really don't give a sh*t anymore.....

[PumpinIron]

This Ross guy is irrelevant--did you read the studies? Anyone excited about this? We have all long-known that non-aromatizing steroids such as Anavar , Turinabol , winnny, and masterlon had less of an impact on the HPTA, now there are studies to prove it.

[PumpinIron]

Proof that Anavar does not cause SHUTDOWN:

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low dose oxandrolone and testosterone on the pituitary-testicular and GH-IGF-I axes. DESIGN: Prospective double-blind placebo-controlled trial. PATIENTS: Sixteen boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty (CDGP) with testicular volumes 4-6 ml were randomized to 3 months treatment: Group 1 (n = 5), daily placebo: Group 2 (n = 5), 2.5 mg oxandrolone daily or Group 3 (n = 6), 50 mg testosterone monthly intramuscular injections with assessment (growth, pubertal development and overnight hormone profiles) at 0, 3, 6 and 12 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: LH and GH profiles (15-minute samples) were analysed by peak detection (Pulsar), Fourier transformation and autocorrelation. Testosterone levels were measured hourly and insulin , SHBG, IGF-I, and IGFBP-3 levels at 0800 h. Statistical analysis was by multivariate analysis of variance for repeated measures. RESULTS: LH and testosterone parameters increased significantly with time in all 16 (LH AUC, P < 0.001; peak amplitude, P = 0.02; number of peaks, P = 0.02; testosterone AUC, P = 0.02; morning testosterone, P = 0.002). In Group 2, however, LH and testosterone parameters decreased at 3 months followed by a rebound increase at 6 and 12 months. SHBG levels were markedly reduced at 3 months (P = 0.006) and a wider range of dominant GH frequencies was present although GH AUC was not increased until 6 months, with an increase in GH pulse frequency but not amplitude. IGF-I levels were increased at both 3 and 12 months. In Group 3, pituitary-testicular suppression was not apparent, but GH levels increased with an increase in GH amplitude at 3 and 12 months. CONCLUSION: Oxandrolone transiently suppressed the pituitary-testicular axis and altered GH pulsatility. Testosterone increased GH via amplitude modulation.

[1-Cent]

Proviron is about as affective as Trib or HCG as far as muscle gains go by itself...
Fluoxymesterone won't produce any noticable muscle gain, just strength and hardness...

So ok, do them, but itll suck

[PumpinIron]

Proviron is about as affective as Trib or HCG as far as muscle gains go by itself...
Fluoxymesterone won't produce any noticable muscle gain, just strength and hardness...

So ok, do them, but itll suck

NON-AROMATIZING steroids . Although these studies were conducted with masterlon, and FL, the mechansim for which inhibition(or lack thereof) was due to lack or aromatase activity.

We can safely say all non-aromatizing steroids cause less inhibtion--which for some is very important.

[1-Cent]

NON-AROMATIZING steroids . Although these studies were conducted with masterlon, and FL, the mechansim for which inhibition(or lack thereof) was due to lack or aromatase activity.

We can safely say all non-aromatizing steroids cause less inhibtion--which for some is very important.

Well, no, since estrogen isn't the only factor... as I pointed out to someone else a few moments ago. If it was then you wouldn't mine taking 2 grams of Test with Letrozole then now would you? Since Letro would lower the amount of estrogen in your system to zero. No estrogen exists... but oh wait... neither does your errection post cycle

[Reiki]

Lmao

[PumpinIron]

Well, no, since estrogen isn't the only factor... as I pointed out to someone else a few moments ago. If it was then you wouldn't mine taking 2 grams of Test with Letrozole then now would you? Since Letro would lower the amount of estrogen in your system to zero. No estrogen exists... but oh wait... neither does your errection

Estrogen is not the ONLY factor--but a very important factor nonetheless. There is Pituitary inhibition (primarily caused by Estrogen and how well something binds to A-R) and testicular inhibition.

NON-aromatizing steroids cause mild inhibition--not SHUTDOWN.

This is an important distinction.

[BigPancho]

NON-AROMATIZING steroids . Although these studies were conducted with masterlon, and FL, the mechansim for which inhibition(or lack thereof) was due to lack or aromatase activity.

We can safely say all non-aromatizing steroids cause less inhibtion--which for some is very important.

Tren doesn't convert into estrogen either, but will shut you down hard! It has been shown to completely supress HPTA in its effective doseage range as well.

Anyone can debunk anything. Sorry, but I'll take experience and results over questionable studies with fuzzy logic anyday.

BigPancho

[PumpinIron]

TREN and NANDROLONE have EXTREME Prostegenic activity! LOL, NON-aromatizing steroids like oxandrolone, turinabol , winstrol , and masterlon are not Progestins! There are always exceptions...

You guys...lol..

[wolfyEVH]

Estrogen is not the ONLY factor--but a very important factor nonetheless. There is Pituitary inhibition (primarily caused by Estrogen and how well something binds to A-R) and testicular inhibition.

NON-aromatizing steroids cause mild inhibition--not SHUTDOWN.

This is an important distinction.

so tren and drol are "mild" to the HPTA?!?! give me a ****in break bro

[PumpinIron]

Read Above Post...

[1-Cent]

Estrogen is not the ONLY factor--but a very important factor nonetheless. There is Pituitary inhibition (primarily caused by Estrogen and how well something binds to A-R) and testicular inhibition.

NON-aromatizing steroids cause mild inhibition--not SHUTDOWN.

This is an important distinction.

Ok so lets uninhibit the testicles with HCG , Trib or both, shall we? Ok so the nuts are working, we're taking Letro so theres no estrogen present and running 2 grams of Test... but oh no! still just as limp as walking in on your mom in the shower

[wolfyEVH]

isnt it a little strange that this guy uses lots of CAPITAL LETTERS in HIS POSTS?!?!? Just like ROSS?!?!? AND bashes TEST

[nomore1324]

LOL i dont know what is going on here but i do know that test is sweet and awesome and when stacked up it can make you a gigantic strong man this thread iis borderline mental.

[PumpinIron]

Ok so lets uninhibit the testicles with HCG , Trib or both, shall we? Ok so the nuts are working, we're taking Letro so theres no estrogen present and running 2 grams of Test... but oh no! still just as limp as walking in on your mom in the shower

You can NOT UNINHIBIT the testicles with HCG! HCG will modulate a temporary LH/FSH signal enabling your testicles to retain some SIZE--not FUNCTION. Tribulus will do nearly nothing for you on cycle.

[PumpinIron]

Experience.

Indeed, using mild anabolics with less androgenic /estrogenic activity will produce less dramatic--though more maintainable gains.

Test is great. TEST IS KING.

We all have differnt goals.

[1-Cent]

You can NOT UNINHIBIT the testicles with HCG! HCG will modulate a temporary LH/FSH signal enabling your testicles to retain some SIZE--not FUNCTION. Tribulus will do nearly nothing for you on cycle.

Remind me what the medical use for hCG and hMG in males is will ya son? Please? I know you can do it

[PumpinIron]

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 May;90(5):2595-602. Epub 2005 Feb 15. Related Articles, Links


Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression.

Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, Herbst KL, Amory JK, Anawalt BD, Sutton PR, Wright WW, Brown TR, Yan X, Zirkin BR, Jarow JP.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle, Washington 98195, USA. [email protected]

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG ) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

PMID: 15713727 [PubMed - in process]

[wolfyEVH]

but who wants to take steroids and suppress their test levels below normal to get sub-par gains using no test, when you can in fact USE test and not worry about low test levels and bad sides from low to no test?? Who cares how suppressive they are....thats what PCT is for, and you can get back to normal within weeks.

[PumpinIron]

Remember--ITT = Intratesticular testosterone ....big difference bud.

[BigPancho]

So, these are the wave of the future? These are what everyone who's afraid of the sides associated with Test & the like should do, right?

Where are your reports on the warnings, contraindications, sides associated with THESE compounds?

ONCE again, YOU are PREACHING the GREAT things ABOUT these SUBSTANCES but ARE not PROVIDING the RISKS associated WITH these SUBSTANCES either.

There's reasoning behind the norm.

BigPancho

[PumpinIron]

but who wants to take steroids and suppress their test levels below normal to get sub-par gains using no test, when you can in fact USE test and not worry about low test levels and bad sides from low to no test?? Who cares how suppressive they are....thats what PCT is for, and you can get back to normal within weeks.

NOT ALWAYS TRUE...

Thi sis hopefully the case--but look at WHAT YOU ARE PLAYING with??!?!?


Your fuc-ing D-CK!!

[PumpinIron]

Test is great--this is not a thread about TEST--there are PLENTY of those already.

No one is invalidating the effictiveness of test. Proposing the use of other anabolics does not do so either.

[wolfyEVH]

http://forums.steroid.com/members/themindofross-29307.html

look at ross's birthdate....

look at pumpinIron's birthdate......

http://forums.steroid.com/members/pumpiniron-37967.html

Busted bro!! get the **** outta here

[PumpinIron]

If I was DISGUISING myself, I would not speak as I do, nor indicate my TRUE BIRTHDAY---so that my FANS LIKE YOU, who know my BDAY could VALIDATE!

[BigPancho]

I'd rather play the odds with my f**king D*CK than with my f**king LIVER!!!

Not to mention the potential for drug interactions with individuals with serious medical conditions such as Diabetes, Hypertension, etc.

There's more than one side to all of this Ross. Have you heard the saying "Youth & treachery are no match for age & experience"?

BigPancho

[WildCh1ld]

http://forums.steroid.com/members/themindofross-29307.html

look at ross's birthdate....

look at pumpinIron's birthdate......

http://forums.steroid.com/members/pumpiniron-37967.html

Busted bro!! get the **** outta here

Ross--> <---busted

[PumpinIron]

I had to post these studies--as everyone said "If he can prove that non-aromatizing steroids are less inhibitive and easier to maintain gains, I may try one of his cycles"...

Well, You will have a difficult time getting MASSIVE with these cycles, but that is not everyone's goal...

I am 5''10, 210, 6%BF.

[1-Cent]

Subcutaneous self-administration of highly purified follicle stimulating hormone and human chorionic gonadotrophin for the treatment of male hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. Spanish Collaborative Group on Male Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism

S Burgues and MD Calderon
Laboratorios Serono SA, C/Maria de Molina, Madrid, Spain.

The efficacy and safety of highly purified follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) associated with human chorionic gonadotrophin (HCG ) was studied in 60 men with hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. Of these men, 16 suffered from Kallmann's syndrome, 19 from idiopathic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism and 25 from hypopituitarism. Basal testosterone concentrations were found to be far below the normal range. At baseline, 26 patients were able to ejaculate and all of them showed azoospermia, while the remaining patients were aspermic. All patients self-administered s.c. injections of FSH (150 IU x three/week) and HCG (2500 IU x two/week) for at least 6 months and underwent periodic assessments of testicular function. Testosterone concentrations increased rapidly during treatment and all but one patient reached normal values. Testicular volume showed a sustained increase reaching almost 3-fold its baseline value. At the end of treatment, 48 patients (80.0%) had achieved a positive sperm count. The maximum sperm concentration during treatment was 24.5 +/- 8.1 x 10(6)/ml (mean +/- SEM). The median time to induce spermatogenesis was 5 months. Eleven patients reported adverse events, generally not related to treatment. Three patients experienced gynaecomastia. No local reactions at injection site were observed. In conclusion, the s.c. self- administration of highly purified FSH + HCG was well tolerated and effective in stimulating spermatogenesis and steroidogenesis in these patients.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 May;90(5):2595-602. Epub 2005 Feb 15. Related Articles, Links


Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression.

Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, Herbst KL, Amory JK, Anawalt BD, Sutton PR, Wright WW, Brown TR, Yan X, Zirkin BR, Jarow JP.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle, Washington 98195, USA. [email protected]

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

PMID: 15713727 [PubMed - in process]

[PumpinIron]

By the way...

Running Oral Turinabol for the 1st time, so I am running it solo at 40mgs for 6 weeks to assess its effeciacy.

[PumpinIron]

Subcutaneous self-administration of highly purified follicle stimulating hormone and human chorionic gonadotrophin for the treatment of male hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. Spanish Collaborative Group on Male Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism

S Burgues and MD Calderon
Laboratorios Serono SA, C/Maria de Molina, Madrid, Spain.

The efficacy and safety of highly purified follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) associated with human chorionic gonadotrophin (HCG ) was studied in 60 men with hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. Of these men, 16 suffered from Kallmann's syndrome, 19 from idiopathic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism and 25 from hypopituitarism. Basal testosterone concentrations were found to be far below the normal range. At baseline, 26 patients were able to ejaculate and all of them showed azoospermia, while the remaining patients were aspermic. All patients self-administered s.c. injections of FSH (150 IU x three/week) and HCG (2500 IU x two/week) for at least 6 months and underwent periodic assessments of testicular function. Testosterone concentrations increased rapidly during treatment and all but one patient reached normal values. Testicular volume showed a sustained increase reaching almost 3-fold its baseline value. At the end of treatment, 48 patients (80.0%) had achieved a positive sperm count. The maximum sperm concentration during treatment was 24.5 +/- 8.1 x 10(6)/ml (mean +/- SEM). The median time to induce spermatogenesis was 5 months. Eleven patients reported adverse events, generally not related to treatment. Three patients experienced gynaecomastia. No local reactions at injection site were observed. In conclusion, the s.c. self- administration of highly purified FSH + HCG was well tolerated and effective in stimulating spermatogenesis and steroidogenesis in these patients.

The study posted USED PURIFIED FSH in CONJUCNTION WITH HCG.

HCG is cosmetic...FSH is modulated by the pituiatary and is FUNCTIONAL.

[PumpinIron]

Thus, 3 patients aquired GYNO.

HCG and gyno...LOL.

[Property of Steroid.com]

This Ross guy is irrelevant--did you read the studies? Anyone excited about this? We have all long-known that non-aromatizing steroids such as Anavar, Turinabol, winnny, and masterlon had less of an impact on the HPTA, now there are studies to prove it.

Yeah...these studies have already been mentioned on this board...in my profiles. Proviron 's lack of impact on the HPTA, etc...it's all old news to the people who have read my profiles.

[PumpinIron]

HOOKER--great profiles by the way--I particularly enjoyed the var and turinabol .