PROOF that NON-Aromatizing steroids DON'T...

[Property of Steroid.com]

Don't you ever sleep?

[PumpinIron]

Don't you ever sleep?

Of course man...GOTTA GROW!

But when I am awake, I am working diligently--either physically or mentally.

Just like you hook.

[1-Cent]

The study posted USED PURIFIED FSH in CONJUCNTION WITH HCG .

HCG is cosmetic...FSH is modulated by the pituiatary and is FUNCTIONAL.

sigh, the point i was making has been lost, its too far off track now, i'm done, go run 2 grams of deca and tell me how it goes k? arguing with you is pointless

[PumpinIron]

Argumentation is never fruitless--

[PumpinIron]

On a side-note:

Did you guys knwo that Turinabol actually INCREASES FREE testosterone by up to 5-times?

It binds to SHBG, thereby freeing up bound-testosterone.

Oral turinabol is being studied for use in HRT.

Rebounds in TOTAL Testosterone were seen in 5 days upon cessation and CONTINUED INCREASING for months.

[Nikolaus777]

didnt someone already ban ross for this sh*t ??....and here he is again?

Ross...oops sorry PumpinIron we all understand where you are coming from but we dont care
Experience proves your studies wrong
So everyone in here is going to stick to what works best

You think Ronnie Coleman is on an Oral cycle without test?

Go to another forum where someone will think you are smart and quit jammin your opinions down people throat
It was old last week and its old this week

[PumpinIron]

didnt someone already ban ross for this sh*t ??....and here he is again?

Ross...oops sorry PumpinIron we all understand where you are coming from but we dont care
Experience proves your studies wrong
So everyone in here is going to stick to what works best

You think Ronnie Coleman is on an Oral cycle without test?

Go to another forum where someone will think you are smart and quit jammin your opinions down people throat
It was old last week and its old this week

You COMPLETELY missed the point of this thread and you are utterly UNPRODUCTIVE.

I STATED IN MY 1st SENTENCE--These cycles are not for EVERYONE. IT IS VERY difficult to get MASSIVE without test (though it can be done).

Ge off the bandwagon. There is nothing wrong with this post bro. Grow up.

There are many TEST threads--this is not one of them. Contribute positively or leave.

[PumpinIron]

I dont even think you actually read my thread! LOL--simply arguing to argue?

What am I saying?

What is wrong?

What experience of YOURS proves what I am saying, wrong?

[Property of Steroid.com]

On a side-note:

Did you guys knwo that Turinabol actually INCREASES FREE testosterone by up to 5-times?

It binds to SHBG, thereby freeing up bound-testosterone.

Oral turinabol is being studied for use in HRT.

Rebounds in TOTAL Testosterone were seen in 5 days upon cessation and CONTINUED INCREASING for months.

Can you link me to the study?

And...incidentally alot of steroids bind to SHBG....Winstrol , for example binds very strongly to it and .2mgs/kg of bdywt (around 18-20mgs/day for you or I) lowers SHBG by around 50%.

[Nikolaus777]

so your not Mind of Ross? or are you avoiding the question?

[PumpinIron]

Can you link me to the study?

And...incidentally alot of steroids bind to SHBG....Winstrol, for example binds very strongly to it and .2mgs/kg of bdywt (around 18-20mgs/day for you or I) lowers SHBG by around 50%.

Good point hooks. I am looking for this GERMAN study on Oral Turinabol . I had it partially translated from MuscleTalk.UK.--great forum by the way. This German abstract had all kinds of interesting info about Tbol. Particulary, half-life, mechanism of action(SHBG Binding), and strong A-R affinity. Im gonna get you the link...

[JiGGaMaN]

obviously it is, he never denied that. although personally i wish hed shut up already.

[PumpinIron]

so your not Mind of Ross? or are you avoiding the question?

I am ROSS. Grow up bro. This is a forum for adults.

[Property of Steroid.com]

We can safely say all non-aromatizing steroids cause less inhibtion--which for some is very important.

Everyone should pay attention...this is cutting edge stuff....two decades ago....

[Nikolaus777]

he he, thats funny
arent you 21 years old?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Good point hooks. I am looking for this GERMAN study on Oral Turinabol. I had it partially translated from MuscleTalk.UK.--great forum by the way. This German abstract had all kinds of interesting info about Tbol. Particulary, half-life, mechanism of action(SHBG Binding), and strong A-R affinity. Im gonna get you the link...

I have the Franke and Berendonk one already, as well as all of the ones they cite in it:

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/43/7/1262#F1

That's not the one you are talking about is it?

Also...I've read some of the stuff on MuscleTalk UK...one of their mods wrote a totally unreferenced profile on Clen ...I refuted it (with references of course)...and he was like "that's bullsh1t..."

I don't waste my time there now. I suggest you don't either....

[Whoisdaman]

I am ROSS. Grow up bro. This is a forum for adults.

why is he not banned yet?

[PumpinIron]

Everyone should pay attention...this is cutting edge stuff....two decades ago....

Hook, most people still don't know it or believe it--at least when I say it.

On a side not captain, I realized something else while loking for that study that occured to me earlier.

"The maximum blood concen-tration of Oral-Turinabol when taking 10, 20 or 40 mg/day is 1.5 -3.5 or 4.5 times the endogenous testosterone concentration (also see Dianabol ). This clearly shows that the effectiveness of this compound strongly depends on the dosage."

Now, since testosterone aromatizes, one would think that the drastic increase in endogeonous concentrations would lead to some aromatization--NO. Testosterone CONCENTRATIONS--the key is FREE Testosterone, not TOTAL. By FREEING testosterone by binding to SHBG, one can experience the benefits of increased test wihout any aromatization...

Pretty cool I thought..

[PumpinIron]

why is he not banned yet?

GETOFF THE BANDWAGON--I remember you SUPPORTED ME back in the day...

I quote from memory...

Whoisdaman: "I feel like the kid in higschool who hangs out with the guy everyone hates"

[PumpinIron]

Hook that isn't the study. This one talked about Rebound after 5 days, and an increase in test months following. It also discussed some other goodies.

[Whoisdaman]

GETOFF THE BANDWAGON--I remember you SUPPORTED ME back in the day...

I quote from memory...

Whoisdaman: "I feel like the kid in higschool who hangs out with the guy everyone hates"

yeah, you had a theory going that was interesting... but you lost my support with this study.

still an interesting read though

[Property of Steroid.com]

Are you drawing that conclusion about SHBG yourself or does it actually say in that study "OT binds to SHBG thereby increasing free testosterone levels etc..." ???

Is that the study showing OT has a biphastic elimination also? I know I've read that one already, but don't remember anything specific about SHBG, although I know it binds strongly to it....

[PumpinIron]

Do you even know what we are discussing?

What have I EVER said you disagreed with?

You can not say...

Just like Americans can not NAME ONE THING IRAQIS did to us....
But we have to hate them and start a war.

[PumpinIron]

Are you drawing that conclusion about SHBG yourself or does it actually say in that study "OT binds to SHBG thereby increasing free testosterone levels etc..." ???

Is that the study showing OT has a biphastic elimination also? I know I've read that one already, but don't remember anything specific about SHBG, although I know it binds strongly to it....

No, you know how we come across SOO much info in such a short period of time, you forget where and when you saw things. I assure you, Tbol binds to SHBG, thereby increasing test levels--the personal observation was derived from a PROFILE that stated that endogenous TEST CONCENTRATIONS increased, and I assumed those figures (1.5, 3.0, 4.5) were due to FREE TEST increases, not TOTAL--as then, aromatization would occur.

[mark956101957]

Indeed, using mild anabolics with less androgenic /estrogenic activity will produce less dramatic--though more maintainable gains.

TEST is NOT BEST for EVERYONE. NON-Aromatizing steroids have MUCH less of an impact on one's HPTA. Those considering the many great alternatives to TEST should find great interest in the following.

Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. I would say its pretty safe and has very little effect on one's HPTA

This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated.
Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

One more...
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone , estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.



Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.




There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.



In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.


Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

You use one type of gear proviron (Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year) as your example for this study????? Sorry I know I am missing something because that would be pretty reckless and worthless to use just one type of gear to test how shut down men get from gear and their hpta..........

[Whoisdaman]

Do you even know what we are discussing?

What have I EVER said you disagreed with?

You can not say...

Just like Americans can not NAME ONE THING IRAQIS did to us....
But we have to hate them and start a war.

It's actually very interesting. I'd also like to see the source of info that says Oral Tbol attaching to SHGB releasing free testosterone . I just don't realize why this information wasn't specified earlier, that gives it much more use than it already has.

If this is true then I can't talk shit...

[Whoisdaman]

You use one type of gear proviron (Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year) as your example for this study????? Sorry I know I am missing something because that would be pretty reckless and worthless to use just one type of gear to test how shut down men get from gear and their hpta..........

it wasn't supposed to show a study for multiple compounds. That's not what the basis of the research was for.

[PumpinIron]

You use one type of gear proviron (Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year) as your example for this study????? Sorry I know I am missing something because that would be pretty reckless and worthless to use just one type of gear to test how shut down men get from gear and their hpta..........

I think you MISSED:
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone , estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.

and

Proof that Anavar does not cause SHUTDOWN:

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low dose oxandrolone and testosterone on the pituitary-testicular and GH-IGF-I axes. DESIGN: Prospective double-blind placebo-controlled trial. PATIENTS: Sixteen boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty (CDGP) with testicular volumes 4-6 ml were randomized to 3 months treatment: Group 1 (n = 5), daily placebo: Group 2 (n = 5), 2.5 mg oxandrolone daily or Group 3 (n = 6), 50 mg testosterone monthly intramuscular injections with assessment (growth, pubertal development and overnight hormone profiles) at 0, 3, 6 and 12 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: LH and GH profiles (15-minute samples) were analysed by peak detection (Pulsar), Fourier transformation and autocorrelation. Testosterone levels were measured hourly and insulin , SHBG, IGF-I, and IGFBP-3 levels at 0800 h. Statistical analysis was by multivariate analysis of variance for repeated measures. RESULTS: LH and testosterone parameters increased significantly with time in all 16 (LH AUC, P < 0.001; peak amplitude, P = 0.02; number of peaks, P = 0.02; testosterone AUC, P = 0.02; morning testosterone, P = 0.002). In Group 2, however, LH and testosterone parameters decreased at 3 months followed by a rebound increase at 6 and 12 months. SHBG levels were markedly reduced at 3 months (P = 0.006) and a wider range of dominant GH frequencies was present although GH AUC was not increased until 6 months, with an increase in GH pulse frequency but not amplitude. IGF-I levels were increased at both 3 and 12 months. In Group 3, pituitary-testicular suppression was not apparent, but GH levels increased with an increase in GH amplitude at 3 and 12 months. CONCLUSION: Oxandrolone transiently suppressed the pituitary-testicular axis and altered GH pulsatility. Testosterone increased GH via amplitude modulation.

So long as the NON-Aromatizing steroid is not PROGESTENIC, (TREN , NANDROLONE ) it will not cause SHUTDOWN.

[PumpinIron]

Hooker should definitely make some stickies for around here, and one of them should be "THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TESTICULAR AND PITUITARY INHIBITION"

[Whoisdaman]

so progestenic compounds cause shutdown while other non aromatizable androgens do not... wow.

[irepdaronx]

This guys a fukin whiz..between hooker and ross i would never think i would find this in a forum of juice heads discussing steroids . I meen this board goes from some guy shooting a needle in his dick to the half lifes and reactions of chemicals i cant fukin spell..but for some odd reason i feel Ross was picked on in school. No im not on the bandwagon, i just think your a pussy who is scared of test, a million different reactions can happen to millions of different people even a bright mind like yours cant even explain while ur putting ANYTHING in ur body from anadrol 2 zambos, So basically if ur gonna do it, do it right. Im fine with my cyp but i enjoy some testosterone debilatating gear in stack...Youll never win, GIVE UP

[PumpinIron]

so progestenic compounds cause shutdown while other non aromatizable androgens do not... wow.

There are compounds that are Estrogenic, Progestenic, and Androgenic .

Learn their PROPERTIES.

[Property of Steroid.com]

No, you know how we come across SOO much info in such a short period of time, you forget where and when you saw things. I assure you, Tbol binds to SHBG, thereby increasing test levels--the personal observation was derived from a PROFILE that stated that endogenous TEST CONCENTRATIONS increased, and I assumed those figures (1.5, 3.0, 4.5) were due to FREE TEST increases, not TOTAL--as then, aromatization would occur.

Yeah...no...I know what you mean...and I do know that OT binds very strongly to SHBG....as does Stanozolol , Mesterolone, DHT, etc...

I was just wondering if the paper you read stated a causative effect or simply a correlative effect with regards to this effect, and whether it was/is directly attributable to SHBG or if there could be other mechanisms (as yet unnamed or whatever) involved....

[Whoisdaman]

This guys a fukin whiz..between hooker and ross i would never think i would find this in a forum of juice heads discussing steroids. I meen this board goes from some guy shooting a needle in his dick to the half lifes and reactions of chemicals i cant fukin spell..but for some odd reason i feel Ross was picked on in school. No im not on the bandwagon, i just think your a pussy who is scared of test, a million different reactions can happen to millions of different people even a bright mind like yours cant even explain while ur putting ANYTHING in ur body from anadrol 2 zambos, So basically if ur gonna do it, do it right. Im fine with my cyp but i enjoy some testosterone debilatating gear in stack...Youll never win, GIVE UP

It's still a good read man, sometimes you should know what is going on AFTER you inject.

[Whoisdaman]

There are compounds that are Estrogenic, Progestenic, and Androgenic .

Learn their PROPERTIES.

I do understand the difference in between compounds, just not their chemical reactions. Settle the **** down...

I see your side and it does make sense. Im agreeing with you. I'll take a step back if you wish to further the debate.

[Property of Steroid.com]

One more...
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone , estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.
Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids , thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.
There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.
In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.
Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

We'd need to get some solid numbers on this last part (in bold)....it doesn't shut you down, but clearly does something detrimental to your HPTA, and the 11-beta group functions to inhibit aromatization....so in this case a non-aromatizing androgen does cause suppression, but I'm not sure how much yet (I'm working on a Fluoxymesterone profile right now....Halotestin , as we usually call it).

I'll do some more research....this Halo profile has been staring at me from my laptop for days....Halo, on paper is 19x as anabolic and 8.5x as androgenic as testosterone ....so as you can imagine, I'm not ready to just say "it's too toxic" and leave it alone...

[Still Pumpin Iron]

We'd need to get some solid numbers on this last part (in bold)....it doesn't shut you down, but clearly does something detrimental to your HPTA, and the 11-beta group functions to inhibit aromatization....so in this case a non-aromatizing androgen does cause suppression, but I'm not sure how much yet (I'm working on a Fluoxymesterone profile right now....Halotestin , as we usually call it).

I'll do some more research....this Halo profile has been staring at me from my laptop for days....Halo, on paper is 19x as anabolic and 8.5x as androgenic as testosterone....so as you can imagine, I'm not ready to just say "it's too toxic" and leave it alone...

I think we can both agree I am an asset to the board. I'll get you those numbers Hook, just let me stick around. I can take some weight off your shoulders. I am a Mod/Vet at three others boards and I think my failures here were due primarily to miscommunication.

Lets keep the KNOWLEDGE flowing...

[Whoisdaman]

We'd need to get some solid numbers on this last part (in bold)....it doesn't shut you down, but clearly does something detrimental to your HPTA, and the 11-beta group functions to inhibit aromatization....so in this case a non-aromatizing androgen does cause suppression, but I'm not sure how much yet (I'm working on a Fluoxymesterone profile right now....Halotestin , as we usually call it).

I'll do some more research....this Halo profile has been staring at me from my laptop for days....Halo, on paper is 19x as anabolic and 8.5x as androgenic as testosterone....so as you can imagine, I'm not ready to just say "it's too toxic" and leave it alone...

Wow, I never had any clue that halo was that anabolic . I always thought it was an oldschool drug (haven't seen a cycle posted with it in years).

[Property of Steroid.com]

I didn't ban anyone....the only people I banned here were Bask8Kace (for a day) and KingOfMasters (until hell freezes over)....

Anyhoo....halo can't aromatize because of the 11-beta group on it....yet it still inhibits HPTA function. Halo is pretty cool stuff...I used the minty-green UpJohn tabs a few years ago, and wish some UG's made it now....

I'm gettin' me some halo....I hate my liver anyway.....

[wolfyEVH]

I didn't ban anyone....the only people I banned here were Bask8Kace (for a day) and KingOfMasters (until hell freezes over)....

Anyhoo....halo can't aromatize because of the 11-beta group on it....yet it still inhibits HPTA function. Halo is pretty cool stuff...I used the minty-green UpJohn tabs a few years ago, and wish some UG's made it now....

I'm gettin' me some halo....I hate my liver anyway.....

there are ug's that have halo bro